For those of you that actually like Bell

[RuntheDamnBall]

Ok again....Dallas got the QB first and built around him....they won 3 superbowls. Get the QB.

Dallas also had a king's ransom of picks via the Herschel Walker trade. Explain to me how we are going to find another team stupid enough to give us that many draft picks for anyone on our roster.

 

Dallas' path was not simply

1. Draft Aikman

2. Draft everybody else

3. Win

 

It had a lot to do with Dallas' extra picks and the fact that they went 1-15 the next season to set up top-of-the-round position in the next draft. Is anyone going to give this team a chance if they go 1-15 next year?

[Thurman#1]

In a similar vein, for those of you who actually liked Peters and wanted to pay him $10M/year after his 2008 season, look where they ranked him in 2009. Then look where they ranked him for the aforementioned 2008 season.

 

 

 

I like Peters. And I don't see anything there to change my mind.

 

But then, I'm one of those guys who would expect an OL who misses training camp to have a much worse season. Crazy me. But you're right, all those who expected Peters to come in after missing training camp and perform at his usual level will be deeply shocked that he didn't.

 

Apart from Doc, anyone like that out there?

 

 

where do you find the 2008 numbers?

 

 

 

Go to the same page, and switch the year on the top left. They only started three years ago, so those are the only three years available.

[Thurman#1]

Peters was ranked 18th in 2009 by PFF, not 8th. He was ranked 46th in 2008 and and was charged by PFF with 13 sacks, which is more than the 11.5 sacks some people claimed were bogus last off-season.

 

And yes, most people realize Bell isn't the answer. Hence the need to draft a LT high this year.

 

 

Exactly right. Which confirms the Peters trade as a genuinely awful trade. We got a first-rounder for him (#28), plus a fourth and a sixth this year, and we are apparently going to give up a first-rounder this year (#9) to replace him. So we essentially gave up Peters for a fourth and a sixth and also gave up a #9 to get a #28. Epically bad.

[Thurman#1]

Peters was ranked 18th in 2009 by PFF, not 8th. He was ranked 46th in 2008 and and was charged by PFF with 13 sacks, which is more than the 11.5 sacks some people claimed were bogus last off-season.

 

And yes, most people realize Bell isn't the answer. Hence the need to draft a LT high this year.

 

 

 

18th overall, but as he said, 8th among LTs at the specific skill of protecting the QB. And all of this while gutting out a lot of the season on an injured ankle. Gosh, we don't need any of that.

 

And if you actually read the stuff on PFF about how they grade, they say that they will often assign a sack to an OL but not penalize him in points because the sack was actually either questionable as to who was responsible or was the result of the QB holding the ball far too long. If they had counted all of those sacks against him, he would have been where Bell was this year, dead-last when he was injured and for another three weeks or so for the other worst guys in the league to catch up to his badness.

 

And yeah, we need to draft an LT high this year, which will finally total off the actual trade for Peters. We had to give away a pick to replace him, very possibly a first-rounder that otherwise could have been used to cover another of our gaping needs.

[Thurman#1]

QUOTE (DarthICE @ Mar 3 2010, 02:15 PM) *

Yeah about that....we are the only in the AFCE not set at QUARTERBACK either....a greater need than LT.

 

 

 

 

 

ZING!!!! he can't answer that one His persistent argument is a useless hypothetical one. He bangs the drum like Keith Moon about getting a franchise QB above all else even if he will get killed behind our non existent o-line. Top 10 drafted QBs play and start their rookie year with but the Phillip Rivers exception in the last BUNCH of years. There is no get your top 10 pick QB and let him sit on the bench. Doesn't happen. When you ask him which QB qualifies this year as the next Jim Kelly Franchise guy and if he thinks they will be there for us at #9.......nothing but crickets!!!!!

 

 

 

Why do you keep adding in the "Top Ten" in your sentence, "top 10 drafted QBs play and start their rookie year with but the Phillip Rivers exception in the last BUNCH of years"? Oh, yeah, specifically so you can ignore another recent franchise QB who sat a long time and is now tearing up the league, Aaron Rodgers.

 

Rodgers and Rivers have both sat out, and it didn't hurt either guy, they both became franchise guys very quickly. It happens.

 

And will both Clausen and Bradford be gone at #9? Probably. But it's not definite. Nor is it definite we won't trade up.

 

But the main point is this. He only said QB was our biggest need. He was right, whether or not we turn out to be in a position to get one.

[Thurman#1]

How can Peters' numbers not be better, considering he played last year in front of a smart, mobile veteran QB instead of the oblivious sack-prey who stumbled around behind our line?

 

 

 

Yeah, um, the smart, mobile veteran QB didn't stop the Eagles from totalling 44 sacks, compared to the obllivious sack-prey in Buffalo, who were only sacked 32 times.

 

The point is that Peters did a damn good job, especially when playing hobbled for quite a few games.

[Thurman#1]

You are like a puppy dog chasing his tail. There is a good probability that the Rams will select Bradford with their first pick. If that is the case do you believe that we should trade up with Detroit to get Clausen and then further mortgage our future and ability to address so many more needs?

 

If the Bills are in position to take Bradford then so be it, let's do it. But your fantasy scenario is very unlikely to materialize. What if your hero Nix doesn't have Clausen as highly rated as you do? Do the Bills then stretch to make a bad deal? The Jets were able to trade up to get Sanchez because their team was very solid to begin with. So mortgaging one draft was a reasonable strategy to take.

 

There are a lot of routes to take to acquire a franchise qb. Sometimes it can't be done right away. Arizona was able to get to get Kurt Warner off the market in the very late stages of his career. New Orleans got Brees from the free agency market with no compensation required. Minnesota got Favre off a fraudulent retirement list. New England hit the jackpot with Brady as a 6th round selection. Henne was a second round pick of the Phins.

 

The Bills' front office can only make decsions based on their real life situation. They can't make decisions on fictitious scenarios like fantasy players. There is a real world out there. Facing the reality of a situation is much more productive than imagining what one would like to do.

 

 

 

Don't act like you know exactly what will happen in the draft, because you don't. Nobody does. What you've got is an educated guess, but plenty of other people have educated guesses that disagree with yours, reasonably.

 

And as for other ways of getting a franchise QB, yeah, there are other ways. So what a sensible team does is look at how successful each way is. Look at the franchise QBs in the league right now. About 2/3rds of them were drafted in the first round. That is the highest probability you have in getting a franchise QB. And getting a franchise QB is the highest correlation you can find to winning the Super Bowl.

 

It should be mission number one, and we should do it the highest probability way. Getting lucky the way about four teams have done is the pipe dream.

[Thurman#1]

Dallas also had a king's ransom of picks via the Herschel Walker trade. Explain to me how we are going to find another team stupid enough to give us that many draft picks for anyone on our roster.

 

Dallas' path was not simply

1. Draft Aikman

2. Draft everybody else

3. Win

 

It had a lot to do with Dallas' extra picks and the fact that they went 1-15 the next season to set up top-of-the-round position in the next draft. Is anyone going to give this team a chance if they go 1-15 next year?

 

 

Yeah, Dallas got lucky along the way. So do most Super Bowl winners. But what was their first move when Johnson came in? Draft Aikman.

 

What was Bill Polian's first move everywhere he has been GM? The Golden Rule of the Draft, NEVER turn down a chance at a franchise QB unless you already have one on the roster. Buffalo, Carolina and Indy, he followed the rule, though he was lucky enough to arrive in Buffalo with Kelly on the roster.

[Thurman#1]

I actually do still like Bell.

 

- Extremely raw

- Was thrown to the wolves last year. I truly wonder what that staff was thinking when they put all their eggs in the Bell basket and let Langston Walker go. We had virtually NO vet experience on the line it was almost like they were setting Juaron up for failure. Bell was not ready to be a full time starter at left tackle.

- I really hope they didn't ruin him because I think he is going to eventually end up a very good "swing" tackle with seasoning and strength work.

- A really nice story to....its hard not to root for D. Bell to do well.

 

 

 

John, needless to say, it would be the best case for the Bills if you are right. But do you seriously think that after three years in an NFL strength program, that another year or two will produce huge gains? Sure, he will get incrementally stronger, but he is too weak for incremental gains to make much difference, IMHO.

 

Hope I'm wrong, though.

[Orton's Arm]

Amen to that.

 

The goodnews is that our OL has nowhere to go but up!

The last time someone wrote something along those lines, Brad Butler announced his retirement. The time before that, it was the Eric Wood injury. . . .

[Thurman#1]

The last time someone wrote something along those lines, Brad Butler announced his retirement. The time before that, it was the Eric Wood injury. . . .

 

 

 

Ouch.

[leh-nerd skin-erd]

John, needless to say, it would be the best case for the Bills if you are right. But do you seriously think that after three years in an NFL strength program, that another year or two will produce huge gains? Sure, he will get incrementally stronger, but he is too weak for incremental gains to make much difference, IMHO.

 

Hope I'm wrong, though.

 

i'm amazed that someone at any organization needed a metric to tell the world what i found out just by subscribing to the nfl sunday ticket.

 

the real question in my mind isn't that he graded out poorly on last year's line, because let's look at the facts:

 

an ineffective offensive scheme devised by a first time offensive coordinator was scrapped and the oc fired just days before starting the season against a coach known for directing what many feel was the team of the decade. said oc was replaced by a brand new oc for the remainder of the year. the inexperienced oc's job was to put together a game plan that utilized the talents of 5 guys, none of which was playing in a position they had played at previously, at the same time doing so against quite literally some of the best athletes in the world. as if that's not bad enough, injuries ranging from nagging to career threatening changed the face of that line on an almost weekly basis.

 

i hope to God that Chan Gailey can bring some m-f stability to this offense. i can't stand to watch another football game where a middle-aged guy who played no organized football can call the next play out before it happens.

[Doc]

Need an address for an Eagles fanboard?

Nope. But thanks all the same.

[JohnC]

Why do you keep adding in the "Top Ten" in your sentence, "top 10 drafted QBs play and start their rookie year with but the Phillip Rivers exception in the last BUNCH of years"? Oh, yeah, specifically so you can ignore another recent franchise QB who sat a long time and is now tearing up the league, Aaron Rodgers.

 

Rodgers and Rivers have both sat out, and it didn't hurt either guy, they both became franchise guys very quickly. It happens.

 

And will both Clausen and Bradford be gone at #9? Probably. But it's not definite. Nor is it definite we won't trade up.

 

But the main point is this. He only said QB was our biggest need. He was right, whether or not we turn out to be in a position to get one.

 

Aaron Rogers sat behind Brett Favre. Phillip Rivers sat behind Drew Brees. If the Bills should be in position to draft a qb with a very high first round pick he will be starting ahead of the other pedestrian qbs currently on our roster.

 

With respect to Aaron Rogers he was a low first round pick. Drew Brees was a second round pick as was Farvre. As I stated before there are a variety of ways to acquire a franchise qb. Being desperate and mortgaging an expansion caliber team's future might not be the best route to take.

[Doc]

I like Peters. And I don't see anything there to change my mind.

 

But then, I'm one of those guys who would expect an OL who misses training camp to have a much worse season. Crazy me. But you're right, all those who expected Peters to come in after missing training camp and perform at his usual level will be deeply shocked that he didn't.

 

Apart from Doc, anyone like that out there?

 

 

Exactly right. Which confirms the Peters trade as a genuinely awful trade. We got a first-rounder for him (#28), plus a fourth and a sixth this year, and we are apparently going to give up a first-rounder this year (#9) to replace him. So we essentially gave up Peters for a fourth and a sixth and also gave up a #9 to get a #28. Epically bad.

 

 

18th overall, but as he said, 8th among LTs at the specific skill of protecting the QB. And all of this while gutting out a lot of the season on an injured ankle. Gosh, we don't need any of that.

 

And if you actually read the stuff on PFF about how they grade, they say that they will often assign a sack to an OL but not penalize him in points because the sack was actually either questionable as to who was responsible or was the result of the QB holding the ball far too long. If they had counted all of those sacks against him, he would have been where Bell was this year, dead-last when he was injured and for another three weeks or so for the other worst guys in the league to catch up to his badness.

 

And yeah, we need to draft an LT high this year, which will finally total off the actual trade for Peters. We had to give away a pick to replace him, very possibly a first-rounder that otherwise could have been used to cover another of our gaping needs.

If we're taking "profootballfocus" as gospel, the 2008 numbers bear-out that Peters had a poor season, hence the Bills making him the highest-paid player afterwards would have been foolish. And even being ranked 8th for LT's, and especially 18th overall for OT's last season, bears that out further. Regardless of whether the Bills have to spend the 9th overall on a LT, who will still make a lot less than $10M/year and likely won't have an entitlement attitude.

[JohnC]

i'm amazed that someone at any organization needed a metric to tell the world what i found out just by subscribing to the nfl sunday ticket.

 

the real question in my mind isn't that he graded out poorly on last year's line, because let's look at the facts:

 

an ineffective offensive scheme devised by a first time offensive coordinator was scrapped and the oc fired just days before starting the season against a coach known for directing what many feel was the team of the decade. said oc was replaced by a brand new oc for the remainder of the year. the inexperienced oc's job was to put together a game plan that utilized the talents of 5 guys, none of which was playing in a position they had played at previously, at the same time doing so against quite literally some of the best athletes in the world. as if that's not bad enough, injuries ranging from nagging to career threatening changed the face of that line on an almost weekly basis.

 

i hope to God that Chan Gailey can bring some m-f stability to this offense. i can't stand to watch another football game where a middle-aged guy who played no organized football can call the next play out before it happens.

 

You watched the games as I did on the NFL ticket. There are a lot of reasons why the offense and OL had major problems, from coaching to personnel etc. But it was obvious to me as it must have been to you that Demtrius Bell was simply overmatched.

 

Demetrius Bell was a developmental player who had little football experience to begin with. He should have never been put in the situation he was placed in. Thinking that Peters could have been replaced by the lumbering Walker was foolish. Thinking that Bell was ready for the most challenging position on the line was not only foolish, it was reckless.

[Tsaikotic]

Yeah about that....we are the only in the AFCE not set at QUARTERBACK either....a greater need than LT.

 

 

Ok again....Dallas got the QB first and built around him....they won 3 superbowls. Get the QB.

 

 

Trade up. So let me ask this....when do we get that Franchise QB? You expect us to have a top 2 pick next year? If we are even worse than this year and have say the 7th pick next year, it still isn't enough to get a 'franchise' QB. So at one point do you pull the trigger and trade UP and get one?

 

 

Aikmen was drafted in 1989 after Dallas already had LT Mark Tuinei and LG Nate Newton...it seems they got there O-line b4 and during the draft with there franchise QB... C Mark Stepnoski was drafted in round 2 of 1989...Nate Newton was switched to RT in 1990 and then switched back to LG in 1992, the year he went to the pro bowl along with his C Mark Stepnoski...so basically the Cowboys had 3 multi-pro bowl o-linemen on the team and then in 1990 they got TE Jay Novacek to help...The Cowboys switched arround there line a few times in the early 90's, but there LT was there a few years b4 they ever got Aikmen...so seems your sol on your assessment

[Bob in STL]

In a similar vein, for those of you who actually liked Peters and wanted to pay him $10M/year after his 2008 season, look where they ranked him in 2009. Then look where they ranked him for the aforementioned 2008 season.

 

 

Spin it any way you want, Peters was worth the money and then some. What do you think we will be paying for an unproven rookie Left OT drafted in the #9 spot?

[leh-nerd skin-erd]

You watched the games as I did on the NFL ticket. There are a lot of reasons why the offense and OL had major problems, from coaching to personnel etc. But it was obvious to me as it must have been to you that Demtrius Bell was simply overmatched.

 

Demetrius Bell was a developmental player who had little football experience to begin with. He should have never been put in the situation he was placed in. Thinking that Peters could have been replaced by the lumbering Walker was foolish. Thinking that Bell was ready for the most challenging position on the line was not only foolish, it was reckless.

 

I agree with you to an extent. He was overmatched. I think the most telling thing you wrote was "it was reckless".

 

Here's where I'm different than some who post here...I'll admit that I have no clue what it takes specifically to build a successful franchise. I have opinions, ideas and thoughts along the way, and most are grounded in the traditional thought processes of the average fan. I think success starts in the management office with a sound approach to O and D lines.

 

what I don't know is if Bell would have fared any better on a line that wasn't built 'recklessly'. i do known that chaos as a general business philosophy generally is problematic, and chaos reigned supreme for many reasons on our line last year. note--I'm not suggesting I think Bell would have been a top 10, 20 or whatever LT on a better team, but I know with certainty that a better team would not have had the chaos he dealt with. i also think it's probably statistically a bad idea to put a raw talent/project alongside guys unskilledin their respective position, at least if you're looking for successful line play.

 

In the end, it's largely irrelevant because in football, at least as far as wins and losses, it matters who wins the most games. Jauron saddled his pony to what was ultimately a pig of a line, and he failed miserably.

 

Come August, I'll keep a good thought that Chan has a better plan. If Bell is on the line, so be it. The proof will be on display each week as the season starts.

[PDaDdy]

Why do you keep adding in the "Top Ten" in your sentence, "top 10 drafted QBs play and start their rookie year with but the Phillip Rivers exception in the last BUNCH of years"? Oh, yeah, specifically so you can ignore another recent franchise QB who sat a long time and is now tearing up the league, Aaron Rodgers.

 

Rodgers and Rivers have both sat out, and it didn't hurt either guy, they both became franchise guys very quickly. It happens.

 

And will both Clausen and Bradford be gone at #9? Probably. But it's not definite. Nor is it definite we won't trade up.

 

But the main point is this. He only said QB was our biggest need. He was right, whether or not we turn out to be in a position to get one.

 

What is so difficult for you to understand about that statement? Seriously I don't get it!!! It couldn't be more plain. If a QB is drafted in the top 10 picks in a draft he will play his rookie year. This is no way we draft a QB that high, pay them that much guaranteed money and then let them sit on the bench to develop. Are you kidding me? This sets them apart from QBs drafted later in the first round that aren't paid as much money and usually end up on better teams. They can sit behind a competent existing QB and be "developed".

 

Why in the world would you get a promising rookie QB and throw him to the wolfs behind the absolute crap we have for an o-line right now? I'm talking about the real world. I'm talking about the Bills in the 2010 draft. I'm talking about us drafting a QB at the #9 position which is a top 10 pick. Anything else is BS speculation and hypothetical crap. The QB is the most important position on the team. We know this. Are you arguing the obvious like we don't know? For the Bills, right now, this year, this draft, fixing our o-line is more important than anything. We need to make sure that we have pass protection and actual run blocking in place before we invest in such a valuable commodity at QB!!!!

 

Truly I hope you understand that. If we had an offensive line that was even average I would say let's get that QB. We don't so we can't!!!!

 

If you can't understands that I can't help you.