Thurman#1 Posted February 22, 2010 Posted February 22, 2010 Said this before show me the last rookie QB drafted in the top 9 spots, not counting Phillip Rivers, who has sat a year!!!!!! Beuhler?....Beuhler? If we get a QB at 9 he will play and he WILL get killed. Why the first 9 spots? Oh yeah, to exclude Aaron Rodgers, who was picked in the first and sat for three years, a truly spectacular move, as it turned out.
RuntheDamnBall Posted February 22, 2010 Posted February 22, 2010 Drafting a good QB ABSOLUTELY DOES magically make the offense better. Just not in the first year or two. Three or four years down the road, having a good QB really does have magical results. And we aren't going to be a good team this year anyway. Waiting till we have a good offense and then drafting a QB has two major problems. One, by that time you usually haven't got a high enough draft pick to get a decent QB. And two, your offense is getting older and wasting time as the QB develops. QBs usually don't arrive all that quickly. Who is above replacement value on our offense that we're so worried will turn into an aging commodity? You can find serviceable quarterbacks all the time (Pennington, Collins, etc - not this year, but guys like them). There is always a vet who can step in and run things while a young player is groomed. In fact, Pennington was a beneficiary of this while Testaverde started. It is a lot harder to build up the line. I defy you to show me one situation where the hotshot QB stepped in behind a line as bad as the Bills', and the team was in the playoffs that year or next. Alternatively, I can cite many situations where an able vet ran the show and succeeded because the rest of the pieces were in place, and then a young guy stepped in to improve the team.
Thurman#1 Posted February 22, 2010 Posted February 22, 2010 Nope. Almost the same time actually. Jim Kelly went to the USFL. By the time he played his first game for the Bills we had the basic components of that monster line that took us to the superbowl I believe. Right. So we drafted Kelly first. Luckily for us, he went to the USFL, getting some seasoning and allowing us to remain poor and build the line with good draft picks. But Polian followed the Golden Rule of the NFL Draft. When you have a chance to draft a franchise QB, you do it. As should Nix.
RuntheDamnBall Posted February 22, 2010 Posted February 22, 2010 Right. So we drafted Kelly first. Luckily for us, he went to the USFL, getting some seasoning and allowing us to remain poor and build the line with good draft picks. But Polian followed the Golden Rule of the NFL Draft. When you have a chance to draft a franchise QB, you do it. As should Nix. So... Polian got lucky that before he was hired as GM, his franchise QB refused to sign with his team, he was able to address the lines in the interim, and his QB came in to the team with two years of NFL caliber experience? This is actually great thinking. Sounds like a plan. Nix should draft Bradford, ask the UFL to create six more franchises, ensure that they sign away more NFL-caliber talent, let Bradford "hold out" and play in the UFL for two championship years, and then we'll be golden. The only missing steps are 1. Steal underpants 2. ??????? 3. Profit
Thurman#1 Posted February 22, 2010 Posted February 22, 2010 We need playmakers! I agree with the lines. But don't reach for need if our scouts are not sold on them. I would rather have the #3 rated DT in a draft class very deep at DT then the #1 rated LT in a very weak LT draft class. I want players that will be quality players for the Bills the next 5-10 years. Not some #1 rated LT who will be a turnstile then out of the league in 3 years. Seems obvious to me Cracking me up over here. You mean drafting a good player would be better than drafting a bad player? Brilliant!!! The problem is that there's no way to be sure that the #3 DT will be better than the #1 rated LT in this year's draft. Actually, the number one LT is Okung, who looks like he will be a monster, and after the first two DTs, the number 3 DT will probably go somewhere late in the first or early in the second, deservedly.
Thurman#1 Posted February 22, 2010 Posted February 22, 2010 Do you really think this area's media and a small but loud group of fans who seem addicted to finding one football savior would be willing to let a 1st round drafted QB sit for a year (as he likely would have to no matter who you drafted) and learn the game. Perhaps more accurately do think that Mr. Ralph and what passes as a Bills braintrust would be able to withstand the whinings of these fans and local media that this first rounder needs to produce and produce now. Would the media and fans want to see him start? Yup. Would the braintrust bow to the fans? Are you serious? How many fans wanted Whitner? How many fans wanted Fred Jackson instead of A-train? How many fans wanted Flutie instead of Johnson for the Music City Miscarriage of Justice? Yes, of course they would stand up to the fans. Right or wrong.
Pete Posted February 22, 2010 Posted February 22, 2010 Cracking me up over here. You mean drafting a good player would be better than drafting a bad player? Brilliant!!! Obvious to us two, but not our front office the past 10 years
C.Biscuit97 Posted February 22, 2010 Posted February 22, 2010 Too many questions about any QB to possible kill your franchise with a QB gamble at #9. Build the lines and draft LEfevour in the 3rd or wait until next year when some real franchise QBs will be coming out.
JStranger76 Posted February 22, 2010 Posted February 22, 2010 If Bradford or Clausen are gone at 9 QB just has to wait till next year. Don't draft one just to shut the fans up. If McCoy was tougher I'd take him if he was available in the 2nd, but he'll probably go to the Vikes or someone before us in the 2nd. I do not trade up for him.
Thurman#1 Posted February 22, 2010 Posted February 22, 2010 In the last number of years what top 10 QB other than Phillip Rivers has not started by sometime in his rookie year? You can't use the example of late first round QBs to predict what will happen with early first round pick QBs. Those slots are night and freaking day. We are probably talking several million a year between say #9 and #32. Money, on the high pick, dictates that they play. End of story. First of all, it's not night and day at all. Yeah, it's several million a year between #9 and #24 (Aaron Rodgers). But who cares? The point is that wherever your guy is drafted, you do what is best for him and for the team. How many of those guys who were drafted early and played the first year were in a position where the team thought it would be better for him and for the team for him to wait a year? Basically, one, Philip Rivers, and surprise, surprise, he sat. If we thought it would be best we would sit him, plain and simple.
Thurman#1 Posted February 22, 2010 Posted February 22, 2010 As a matter of fact, the same time.... look! 1986: On draft day, Polian again wheeled and dealed with excellent results. Trading a 2nd and a 4th, he picked up a 1st round selection. With his 2 1st round picks, he surprised many in Buffalo selecting RB Ronnie Harmon and grabbed OT Will Wolford with the pick obtained from San Francisco. The Bills already had a full stable at RB with the return of always disgruntled Joe Cribbs , Greg Bell, and solid backup Rob Riddick. Polian selected C Leonard Burton with his 3rd, and FB Carl Byrum with the 5th. Polian displayed his knack of getting quality talent in later rounds. LB Mark Pike and TE Butch Rolle were selected in the 7th. Other USFL free agents signed were Center Kent Hull of the Generals, and DB Dwight Drane. Lost in the Kelly mania that struck the city of Buffalo was Polian's trade of Joe Cribbs to San Francisco for future draft picks. http://www.billszone.com/mtlog/archives/20...the_messiah.php So in 86 the same year that Jim Kelly arrived the Bills managed to acquire LT Will Wolford AND C Kent Hull, two of the very best O linemen in Bills history. Kelly wasn't drafted in 1986. He was drafted in 1983. Polian drafted Kelly way before he got the line together. Again, the Golden Rule of the Draft.
Thurman#1 Posted February 22, 2010 Posted February 22, 2010 yes, you need to learn reading comprehension, especially before you start personal attacks."I agree with the lines- meaning that I agree we need help on both sides of the line. Until we fix the oline, drafting a QB is retarded IMO But don't reach for need if our scouts are not sold on them. BPA, not need for the 1,001 time I would rather have the #3 rated DT in a draft class very deep at DT then the #1 rated LT in a very weak LT draft class. I want players that will be quality players for the Bills the next 5-10 years. Not some #1 rated LT who will be a turnstile then out of the league in 3 years." I thought you could understand this statement, but perhaps I am overestimating you. No where do I state that this is a weak draft at oline. Au contraire. Did someone piss in your cornflakes this morning? Look, we have been drafting for need the past decade. The proof is in the pudding. This team has been mediocre at best this millenium. You can stick with that asinine philosophy, or you can learn from it and start stockpiling talent on this team. I will choose the later, thank you Pete, you still didn't explain the contradiction he pointed out. First you said "... then the #1 rated LT in a very weak LT draft class." Then you said "I never said it was a weak class." That is a contradiction.
Thurman#1 Posted February 23, 2010 Posted February 23, 2010 who is a good QB to draft? Did you feel JeMarcus Russell was a good QB? Matt Leinart? Brady Quinn? John Beck? ...... I'm not saying that I know 100% correctly who the correct QB would be. Though I WAS pretty sure that JaMarcus Russell was NOT the correct guy. What I AM saying is: 1) Both Clausen and Bradford in his last healthy year (he didn't play enough last year to give a legitimate sample of his work) have stats MUCH better than any of those other guys you used as examples. 2) The highest percentage way to find a franchise QB is to draft one in the first. There are definitely other ways, drafting one later, picking up an FA or even a UDFA, or trading, and all of them have provided some success. But with QBs, you have to try to maximize your chances of success, and the highest percentage way of finding a franchise guy is drafting one in the first round. 3) Whichever guy I like (Clausen) is not important. The important thing is whichever guy Nix likes. And if Nix likes either guy, he should do what he has to do. If he doesn't like either guy, then by all means go LT or DT or LB, though I'd go LT.
K-9 Posted February 23, 2010 Posted February 23, 2010 Kelly wasn't drafted in 1986. He was drafted in 1983. Polian drafted Kelly way before he got the line together. Again, the Golden Rule of the Draft. Yep. In fact when Kelly WAS drafted, the ONLY piece of the dominate OLine to be was Richter at LG. And he wasn't taken by Polian. Wilford, Hull, Davis, Ballard, et al came WAY after we selected Kelly. And your point about Kelly going to the USFL is not lost on me. The seasons he spent running the Run and Shoot under Mouse Davis taught him how to read defenses. I'm not convnced Kelly would have become the QB he became if he signed with the Bills as a rookie in '83. I won't characterize it as being "lucky" that he went to the USFL but it worked out for the best. Anyway, the Golden Rule of the Draft ALWAYS applies if you don't have a great QB and you think one is available to grab when your pick comes up. Yes it's a crapshoot but you gotta have a QB first and foremost. In other words, a franchise QB will get you through times of inconsistent OLine play than better than a franchise OLman will get you through times of inconsistent QB play. It ALL starts with a great QB. There just aren't that many to be had. GO BILLS!!!
Thurman#1 Posted February 23, 2010 Posted February 23, 2010 I am just wondering what the board reaction is going to be when we draft Baluga and he gets beat some this year and whatever scrub QB is back there gets hit this year as well. Probably another board meltdown on how much our line sucks. Its going to take patience whatever way we go with that 1st pick...... Yup. Good point.
thewildrabbit Posted February 23, 2010 Posted February 23, 2010 Kelly wasn't drafted in 1986. He was drafted in 1983. Polian drafted Kelly way before he got the line together. Again, the Golden Rule of the Draft. It didn't state he was drafted, I said he arrived at the same time as Wolford and Hull. I think was Jim Kelly fortunate that he didn't play for the Bills until 86 as he got game experience with the USFL as did center Kent Hull. So Jim Kelly didn't come into Buffalo as a "rookie", he had game experience. He also stated when he first arrived in Buffalo," I can't do this by myself". Meaning he knew he needed a decent team around him, Bill Polian gave that to him Lastly, Bill Polian didn't draft Jim Kelly as he was GM from 1986-1993, so as soon as he was made GM he drafted for the O line!
C.Biscuit97 Posted February 23, 2010 Posted February 23, 2010 Kelly wasn't drafted in 1986. He was drafted in 1983. Polian drafted Kelly way before he got the line together. Again, the Golden Rule of the Draft. Polian didn't become the GM until December 30, 1985 so he didn't draft Kelly.
C.Biscuit97 Posted February 23, 2010 Posted February 23, 2010 It didn't state he was drafted, I said he arrived at the same time as Wolford and Hull. I think was Jim Kelly fortunate that he didn't play for the Bills until 86 as he got game experience with the USFL as did center Kent Hull. Lastly, Bill Polian didn't draft Jim Kelly as he was GM from 1986-1993, so as soon as he was made GM he drafted for the O line! Damn, you beat me.
Pete Posted February 23, 2010 Posted February 23, 2010 Pete, you still didn't explain the contradiction he pointed out. First you said "... then the #1 rated LT in a very weak LT draft class." Then you said "I never said it was a weak class." That is a contradiction. I stated my draft philosophy in general. I merely chose LT and DT as an example- not indicative of this draft class. Earlier I pointed out BPA over position need when we !@#$ed up and chose Mike Williams drafting a need, but therefore passing up BPA's Dwight Freeney, Ed Reed, Albert Haynesworth, and John Henderson. I am a draftnik and have been following from the get go. This year oline is deep. and for the 1,002 time- always draft BPA!
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