Been giving this a lot of thought....and I am a OL guy and

[Thurman#1]

How many elite QBs in the last 10 years have won superbowls? NOTE!!!!! I said how many elite QBs not how many superbowls

 

For extra credit, tell me how many of those elite QBs had an average or worse o-line?

 

 

Gosh, you mean Super Bowl winning teams have to be pretty good in all aspects? Um, no kidding.

 

But, Roethlisberger didn't have an average or worse o-line year before last. They weren't good. It can be done.

 

But it's beside the point of this argument. By and large, you have to have a good o-line and a good QB to win the SB. Pretty much everyone here gets that. The point is how they are assembled, and in particular, whether the Golden Rule is a high percentage move. And it is.

 

Last time the Steelers had a shot at a franchise QB, when they didn't have it, they took him. And yeah, they already had an excellent OL at the time, but how often did the Steelers ignore the Golden Rule? The Colts? The Pats*? ..........

[Thurman#1]

2002 Tampa with Brad Johnson. 85 Bears

 

 

 

People forget that in the middle of his career, Brad Johnson was a damn fine quarterback. The guy is 28th in passer rating in NFL history. 92.9 rating the Super Bowl year, back when ratings were lower than they are now.

 

He also made the Pro Bowl two times, including the Super Bowl year.

 

He was oft-traded, but the Vikes regretted trading him to the Skins and the Skins regretted trading him to the Bucs.

 

For his first two years, and from about 2003 on, when he hit 35, he wasn't a particularly good QB. But in his prime years, he was very good.

 

He is an excellent example of a QB who wasn't drafted high but was good and won a Super Bowl (there are a few, it's just a much lower percentage move than drafting in the first). He's NOT a good example of a bad to mediocre QB who won a Super Bowl, a Trent Dilfer type. He was much better than Dilfer.

[Thurman#1]

My entire problem with the Buffalo Bills is that if they fail to address the O line and blocking tight end, then how will they ever know if its the QB or other problems?

Last season we all knew its the O line, I think everyone agrees that the line was completely horrid for most of the year and hindered the QB's and running game.

 

J.P. Losman and Trent Edwards both started out looking promising. People were saying playoffs in 07 after the 06 season and then JP came out and fell on his face.

Edwards came out and won 4 straight in 08, was severely concussed in the Arizona game and hasn't been quite the same since.

 

Who is to say that if the Bills draft Bradford or Clausen and they start to play a few games and look really good... and then "wham" they get injured or concussed.

Everyone will then say "oh they sucked from the start" and lets look at next years draft for the "real" Buffalo Bills franchise QB.

 

 

 

Wildrabbit, that IS a legitimate concern, but it's simply a risk that you either take or sit the guy.

 

Peyton Manning was manhandled that first year. It just made him better. Kelly took a lot of hits that first year behind that very young OL. It didn't have any permanent effects, it just worked as good experience, for both Kelly and the young OL. But you're right, you run the risk of injury, you always do.

 

Losman is an interesting case, because his line in 2006 was much worse than in 2007. Fowler at center, Gandy at guard, Tutan Reyes and Terrence Pennington at tackle. Chris Villarrial was a good player, though fading, at RG, but he only played eight games before injury ended his season. Jason Peters first starts at RT in the second half of the season were about the only bright spot. Yet Losman played well.

 

The next year the line got better. But the brain trust changed the playbook and the playcalling to reel in Losman, close down the playbook and make him play conservative, despite clear evidence that he had played much better the year before when they opened up the playbook in the second half. They were much too clever to play to his strengths, and played to his weaknesses instead, and even with a significantly better OL, Losman started his flame-out.

[Thurman#1]

QUOTE (JStranger76 @ Feb 23 2010, 03:53 PM) *

The 2000 Ravens are a once every 25 years team. That type of cast only comes around 3 or 4 times in a century.

 

 

 

 

ZING!!!!

 

AS much as I would like to let's not forget the 1991 Giants that beat our star QB led Bills

 

 

Aargh. Don't remind me.

 

Though Simms was a very solid franchise QB and Hostetler a Frank Reich-style excellent backup.

[Thurman#1]

2) Show me a team that drafted their top 10 pick QB first before having a MUCH better line than we have now.

 

 

I'm guessing you meant Rivers, rather than Brees, correct?

 

Anyway, there is no significant difference between number 10 and number 24, where Rodgers was picked. Rivers and Rodgers are two cases where first-rounders sat. It happens. The reason it doesn't happen all that often is simply because for many teams it isn't the proper move under the circumstances. For San Diego, it was the proper move, and they did it. For Green Bay, it made sense, so they did it.

 

The fact is that if it makes sense in the situation, teams will do it.

 

The only reason you're adding in "top ten" and "bad offensive lines" as qualifications is to eliminate recent guys who were first rounders who sat. JP Losman was a first-rounder who sat. They happen.

 

If the Bills want to sit their guy, they will do it. In no way is it a fact that first-rounders sit. What is a fact is that if you eliminate all but a few guy from your sample, as you tried to do, you can prove almost anything. Even under your qualifications, which cuts it down to about, what, five to eight QBs in the last ten years, you still have Rivers. One out of, what, six? Nine? That's above 10% of your QBs who sat.

[Orton's Arm]

How many elite QBs in the last 10 years have won superbowls? NOTE!!!!! I said how many elite QBs not how many superbowls

 

For extra credit, tell me how many of those elite QBs had an average or worse o-line?

I looked up the recent Super Bowl winners.

1998. Broncos. John Elway.

1999. Broncos. John Elway.

2000. Rams. Kurt Warner. Hall of Famer.

2001. Ravens. Trent Dilfer.

2002. Patriots. Brady.

2003. Bucs. Brad Johnson. A solid player.

2004. Patriots. Brady again!

2005. Patriots again. Brady again!

2006. Steelers. Roethlisberger--a very good QB!

2007. Colts. Peyton Manning. An even better QB!

2008. Giants. Eli Manning. Had a really good year that year!

2009. Steelers. Roethlisberger.

2010. Saints. Drew Brees.

 

Super Bowls won by teams with first ballot Hall of Fame QBs 7. (Elway x 2) + Warner + (Brady x 3) + Peyton Manning.

Super Bowls won by teams with QBs playing near a Hall of Fame level: 3. Brees + (Roethlisberger x 2)

Super Bowls won by teams with quarterbacks having a really good year: 1. Eli Manning.

Super Bowls won by teams with above-average quarterbacks: 1 (Brad Johnson)

Super Bowls won by teams with mediocre quarterbacks: 1 (Trent Dilfer).

 

I'll be the first to say that a good quarterback deserves and really benefits from a good offensive line. And that the Bills have traditionally neglected their offensive line on draft day--which is inexcusable. But the above data are clear: a good offensive line, alone, is not enough for a Super Bowl win. You're going to need that franchise quarterback! It makes sense to take him early in the rebuilding process for two reasons: 1) it takes a while for a quarterback to develop, and 2) early in the process, your draft picks are likely to be higher than they'll become after your team has gotten stronger. Because the quarterback is the single hardest piece of the puzzle to fill, it makes sense to use a top 10 pick on him, if possible. (As opposed to using a top 10 pick on, say, a backup SS.)

[Billsfansince72]

If Tony Pike is available in the 3rd round, take him. No way do you pick for need. It's a reach to pick a QB 1st, 9th overall, and this team can't afford another first round bust.

[PDaDdy]

There is no denying the numbers of sacks allowed and the proficiency of the Colts' passing game in Manning's rookie year.

 

But for an OL so great, it took seven seasons since Manning was drafted for the first of his OLmen (Glen) to be selected to the Pro Bowl. Not that the Pro Bowl selection process is the be all end all but it is telling to some degree. Manning, Faulk, James, Harrison, Dilger all made Pro Bowl and/or All Pro teams during that same span. The Colts' talent WAS recognized. And yet their OL was not honored in the same fashion. Interesting.

 

Manning, in his 13 seasons has always been among the least sacked QBs in the league. That covers many OL combinations. The one constant is Manning himself. He's always been able to get the ball out ON TIME or buy extra time in the pocket. This year they had no running game to speak of, yet Manning was sacked a mere 10 times. 10 TIMES!

 

Taking nothing away from their OLine and the sacks allowed stat, but I submit that the low sack numbers are more a testament to Manning's ability over the years than that of his OL to protect him. He simply gets rid of the ball so quickly.

 

GO BILLS!!!

 

A QB can help or hurt his lines sack numbers but the line is the major contributing factor. I'll put it another way. Ability to beat the blitz can cause opposing defenses to send fewer guys which should also reduce the sack number. If Manning had 1.5, 2 seconds to throw the ball and he was just getting rid of it to prevent sacks. I'll say that is to the QBs credit. NOW...if Manning has 3, 4 sec + to throw the ball, that is mostly his offensive.

 

Be honest, when you watched the Colts games, what did you see? I saw a QB that could often beat the blitz when it came, to Manning's credit, and a QB that had a lot of time to throw when not blitzed...o-line doing it's job and doing it well.

[PDaDdy]

No doubt. Glen was a great, if not elite, LT. Yet it took him eight seasons (seven with Manning) to make the Pro Bowl while others on those teams were well recognized as Manning, Faulk, James, Harrison, Dilger all made Pro Bowl and/or All Pro teams during that span. I find that interesting.

I'm not even remotely suggesting that the Colt's OLine didn't/doesn't provide great protection. I'm saying Manning's greatness at getting rid of the ball has made their jobs a hell of a lot easier over the years.

 

Manning was sacked 10 times in 16 games this year. His backup, Painter, was sacked three times in the two games he appeared in, which amounted to about 5 quarters, give or take. It makes a difference when you have an HOFer behind center. That's all I'm saying.

 

GO BILLS!!!

 

They still have to block the defenders. It is amazing to me how people diminish the importance of the o-line and think that magically the QB blocks for himself some how. No matter how well the QB does his job, o-linemen HAVE TO WIN THEIR INDIVIDUAL MATCHUPS or BE COACHED WELL ENOUGH AND PLAY A SCHEME WHERE THEY COLLECTIVELY GET THE JOB DONE. This sometimes produces the noname offensive line like I believe the superbowl winning giants employed somewhere around 1990. This is so obvious but people are swinging from, one of a kind, Peyton Manning's sack and buy into the savior philosophy SO much they think you could stick any 5 bums out in front of Peyton and he would still only get sacked 10 times a year.

[PDaDdy]

QUOTE (thewildrabbit @ Feb 23 2010, 03:48 PM) *

Yet you managed to over look my question angel.gif

 

"Anyone care to explain how the Ravens won that game with the winning QB completing only 4 passes in 10 attempts for a total of 34 yards?"

 

Jeez, the Ravens managed to beat the Patriots in New England with a power running game and a QB who did almost nothing to help win, and everyone conveniently ignores the post.

 

Wow. Tough question. OK, here's the answer. Weird stuff happens a small percentage of the time. That's all the answer that's necessary. Again, did they win another? Did they get to the conference championship? The Super Bowl?

 

Luck wins a game or two, probably more, every single week in the NFL. And in the case of that particular game, the Pats* are no longer as good as they looked, Thank the Deity, and the Ravens were lucky enough to get three turnovers. Doubt it was luck? Then why didn't they keep winning?

 

A team winning one playoff game, however they do it, doesn't impress. When they string together a few wins and get to the conference championship or the SB, start considering them a serious threat.

 

But smart people go for the high odds.

 

EDIT: Ah, I see you already answered that, EDWARDSARM, and better than I could have. Great job.

 

 

COME ON THURMAN...have some integrity man! What a weak response! The Ravens victory was a statistical anomaly? They got lucky? THEY KICKED ASS TO THE TUNE OF 34 - 7. They won in every phase of that game!

[PDaDdy]

OK, so apparently we have uncovered your blueprint for Super Bowl success. All we have to do is put together one of the great defenses of all time. Then you don't have to have a competent passing game. Wow, if only I had realized it was so simple. And that strategy works ... for the Ravens ... the 1985 Bears ...

 

Um ...

 

I'm sure there are others if you go far enough back.

 

Again, as I have said again and again and again, yeah, there are other ways to win. But they are lower percentage chances. The smart thing to do is go high percentage.

 

Bill Polian has followed the Golden Rule of the Draft, "Never pass up a franchise type QB, unless you already have one," every single time he built a team.

 

The Bills. He had one in Kelly, so he was able to work on other aspects.

The Panthers. He didn't have one, so he went QB in the first in his first draft there.

The Colts. He didn't have one, so he went QB in the first in his first draft there.

 

Hey, unless you are willing to go out on a limb and say that Bradford is the next Jim Kelly and a franchise QB your opinion is completely worthless! If you or the front office isn't willing to make that statement, draft a LT at #9, start fixing the line and keep your hypothetical winy "we need a savior at QB" crap to your self.

[PDaDdy]

Gosh, you mean Super Bowl winning teams have to be pretty good in all aspects? Um, no kidding.

 

But, Roethlisberger didn't have an average or worse o-line year before last. They weren't good. It can be done.

 

But it's beside the point of this argument. By and large, you have to have a good o-line and a good QB to win the SB. Pretty much everyone here gets that. The point is how they are assembled, and in particular, whether the Golden Rule is a high percentage move. And it is.

 

Last time the Steelers had a shot at a franchise QB, when they didn't have it, they took him. And yeah, they already had an excellent OL at the time, but how often did the Steelers ignore the Golden Rule? The Colts? The Pats*? ..........

 

 

Gosh, you mean there are rare exceptions at QB that can succeed with a poor oline? Thanks for that insight. Now please rattle off the list of other QBs that have had similar success! ...OH...You can't? ...Thought so. Please stop using rare statistical anomalies like Mannning and Roethlesberger to try to set an example for what the Bills should do if Bradford falls to them. Bradford is neither Manning or the impossible to take down Big Ben.

 

Say something of value like "I think Bradford is a franchise QB and like Peyton Manning he will make his line better or like Big Ben he will refuse to go down". Until you can say something of substance like that and take a stand stop wasting our time with your BS exceptions and rare QBs as examples the Bills should follow.

[thewildrabbit]

Gosh, you mean Super Bowl winning teams have to be pretty good in all aspects? Um, no kidding.

 

But, Roethlisberger didn't have an average or worse o-line year before last. They weren't good. It can be done.

 

But it's beside the point of this argument. By and large, you have to have a good o-line and a good QB to win the SB. Pretty much everyone here gets that. The point is how they are assembled, and in particular, whether the Golden Rule is a high percentage move. And it is.

 

Last time the Steelers had a shot at a franchise QB, when they didn't have it, they took him. And yeah, they already had an excellent OL at the time, but how often did the Steelers ignore the Golden Rule? The Colts? The Pats*? ..........

You guys gotta stop equating sacks given up to equal a bad O line. Both Rothlisberger and Aaron Rogers tend to hold the ball longer then they should waiting for receivers to get open, or they move around in the pocket to buy time. So they tend to take more sacks then they should, that doesn't mean the O line is bad.

 

Plus the fact that the Steelers have transformed under Big Ben because they throw the ball much more now then they did when they had Jerome Bettis.

Big Ben was allowed to develop in a power run offense which helped him immensely IMO.

 

The Bills O line vs the Steelers O line... there is a drastic difference in just playing experience alone. Then you need to take other things into consideration, who is calling the plays, who game planned against the opponent and what scheme do they run. Not to mention the other coaches, 2nd year line coach, no QB coach.

 

I'd imagine the Bills QB's would have fared much better this season behind that Steeler's O line, both Fred Jackson and Marshawn Lynch would have done much better also.

 

That 08 SB year the Steelers center had 8 years exp-LG 3 years exp-RT 3 years exp -LT 6 years exp RG 6 years exp. granted they had some young linemen but the min exp was 3 years and the LT and C were excellent at their positions.

[PDaDdy]

The only reason you're adding in "top ten" and "bad offensive lines" as qualifications is to eliminate recent guys who were first rounders who sat. JP Losman was a first-rounder who sat. They happen.

 

 

Use your head man, stop trying to focus on wining some moral victory and focus on learning something. The reasons I am limiting it to top 10 picks is because if we are presented with that choice it would be a top 10 pick QB. QBs drafted in those slots for that kind of money PLAY. THEY WILL START. There is no "keep the guy on the bench for a year or 2". It's a fantasy. We are all talking about what could be but at least lets try to keep it real. If we get a QB first, he will play and we would risk screwing the kid up like so many other teams. QBs drafted sometimes go to better teams and can sit the bench a while. Aaron Rogers was backing up Brett Farve. Show me the Brett Farve on our team and then there is the possibility that a QB pick at #9 won't play. OH, you can't? No surprise there.

 

So I would ask the question again even though people don't have the integrity to answer the question we all know if we get a QB at #9 he starts this year. If you want to roll the dice on a potentially promising rookie QB AND THEN throw him behind whatever BS we would have to trot out there at o-line you are a braver and "stupider" man than I.

[PDaDdy]

You guys gotta stop equating sacks given up to equal a bad O line. Both Rothlisberger and Aaron Rogers tend to hold the ball longer then they should waiting for receivers to get open, or they move around in the pocket to buy time. So they tend to take more sacks then they should, that doesn't mean the O line is bad.

 

 

Rabbit, Thurman is a waste of time. You can't educate a brick! In this same thread he claims that the 22 sacks that Manning took in his rookie year didn't tell the story of what went on and says that even with a low sack total of 22 Manning was beat up. He then turns around and uses sacks as the whole story regarding how poorly Roethlisberger and Rogers line performed.

 

What a clod! Does he really think that people won't catch him talking out of both sides of his mouth at the same time?

[thebandit27]

You guys gotta stop equating sacks given up to equal a bad O line. Both Rothlisberger and Aaron Rogers tend to hold the ball longer then they should waiting for receivers to get open, or they move around in the pocket to buy time. So they tend to take more sacks then they should, that doesn't mean the O line is bad.

 

Plus the fact that the Steelers have transformed under Big Ben because they throw the ball much more now then they did when they had Jerome Bettis.

Big Ben was allowed to develop in a power run offense which helped him immensely IMO.

 

The Bills O line vs the Steelers O line... there is a drastic difference in just playing experience alone. Then you need to take other things into consideration, who is calling the plays, who game planned against the opponent and what scheme do they run. Not to mention the other coaches, 2nd year line coach, no QB coach.

 

I'd imagine the Bills QB's would have fared much better this season behind that Steeler's O line, both Fred Jackson and Marshawn Lynch would have done much better also.

 

That 08 SB year the Steelers center had 8 years exp-LG 3 years exp-RT 3 years exp -LT 6 years exp RG 6 years exp. granted they had some young linemen but the min exp was 3 years and the LT and C were excellent at their positions.

 

You would imagine incorrectly, then.

 

Buffalo's running game ranked 16th in the NFL at 116.7 yds/game, and 8th in the NFL at 4.4 yds/carry.

Pittsburgh's running game ranked 19th in the NFL at 112.1 yds/game, and 15th in the NFL at 4.2 yds/carry.

 

http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?off...mp;d-447263-n=1

 

And regarding the 2008 season, Pittsburgh's offensive line not only allowed many more sacks than Buffalo's (49 to 38), they also ranked way behind Buffalo in rushing yds/game (115.1 [14th] to 105.6 [23rd]) and yds/carry (4.2 [14th] to 3.7 [29th]).

 

So I'd say you're going pretty darn far out on a limb in imagining that, since there's really nothing (other than years of experience) to back that up. And on that note, it's important to understand that 60% of Pittsburgh's Superbowl OL weren't starters prior to 2008 (Darnell Stapleton, Chris Kemoeatu, and Willie Colon). And another starter, LT Max Starks, had never started at LT.

[K-9]

They still have to block the defenders. It is amazing to me how people diminish the importance of the o-line and think that magically the QB blocks for himself some how. No matter how well the QB does his job, o-linemen HAVE TO WIN THEIR INDIVIDUAL MATCHUPS or BE COACHED WELL ENOUGH AND PLAY A SCHEME WHERE THEY COLLECTIVELY GET THE JOB DONE. This sometimes produces the noname offensive line like I believe the superbowl winning giants employed somewhere around 1990. This is so obvious but people are swinging from, one of a kind, Peyton Manning's sack and buy into the savior philosophy SO much they think you could stick any 5 bums out in front of Peyton and he would still only get sacked 10 times a year.

 

So now you're saying I'm diminishing the importance of a good OLine? Far from it. You get a kick out of insulting people's football IQ around here. Hey, whatever floats your boat as they say.

 

But I'll play along for a minute more regarding the Colts' Oline.

 

Why haven't the Colts' OLineman, if they're so great, been recognized by their peers and writers over the years? Why, if they're that great, did their running game SUCK last season? Why, if they're so great, did their backup get sacked 3 times in 5 quarters, while Manning got sacked 10 times all year? All I'm saying is Manning has been among the least sacked QBs his ENTIRE career and over that time he's played with NUMEROUS OLine combinations. Aside from Glen and Saturday (only recently) his line hasn't been littered with All Pros. Manning is the one constant. Or are you suggesting that Manning has always played behind 5 Pro Bowlers?

 

It's interesting to look at the ratio of sacks given up by the Colts when Manning is behind center vs. when his backup has been in the game. Granted, that's not often because Manning has always stayed pretty healthy. But it's still telling as it's clear there's a difference when a QB not as good is taking the snaps.

 

You have it backwards. It's not a question of putting Manning behind five bums, it's putting a bum behind the Colt's OLine. While I know you strongly disagree, Manning, based on what I've observed of him since he was a freshman at Tennessee, would not get sacked as much as our QBs do behind our horrid OLine. He'd get rid of it first. Unlike our QBs, he DOESN'T hold on too long very often. I won't go into how his quick decisions, quick release, and ability to buy extra time contribute to his ability to avoid sacks. I won't bore you with the fact that he's one of the best play-action QBs to ever suit up and how much that helps. Nor will I bore you with an explanation of what it means to get rid of the ball ON TIME (do you know what that means in football terms?). The huge significance of all these superior traits in Manning and how they contribute to his avoiding sacks wouldn't be of the least importance to you, I feel.

 

Again, I hope we get the best player to help us at #9. If it's an OT, great. If it's an LB, super. If it's a QB our FO feels has franchise abillity, so much the better.

 

GO BILLS!!!

[PDaDdy]

You would imagine incorrectly, then.

 

Buffalo's running game ranked 16th in the NFL at 116.7 yds/game, and 8th in the NFL at 4.4 yds/carry.

Pittsburgh's running game ranked 19th in the NFL at 112.1 yds/game, and 15th in the NFL at 4.2 yds/carry.

 

http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?off...mp;d-447263-n=1

 

And regarding the 2008 season, Pittsburgh's offensive line not only allowed many more sacks than Buffalo's (49 to 38), they also ranked way behind Buffalo in rushing yds/game (115.1 [14th] to 105.6 [23rd]) and yds/carry (4.2 [14th] to 3.7 [29th]).

 

So I'd say you're going pretty darn far out on a limb in imagining that, since there's really nothing (other than years of experience) to back that up. And on that note, it's important to understand that 60% of Pittsburgh's Superbowl OL weren't starters prior to 2008 (Darnell Stapleton, Chris Kemoeatu, and Willie Colon). And another starter, LT Max Starks, had never started at LT.

 

 

You are correct. The 2008 Steelers with Big Ben were an exception. But that's the thing about exceptions....they AREN'T the rule!

[PDaDdy]

So now you're saying I'm diminishing the importance of a good OLine? Far from it. You get a kick out of insulting people's football IQ around here. Hey, whatever floats your boat as they say.

 

But I'll play along for a minute more regarding the Colts' Oline.

 

Why haven't the Colts' OLineman, if they're so great, been recognized by their peers and writers over the years?

 

You don't have to be in a probowl to be good. I believe the probowl mean a lot but it is for the best of the best. For example, I think 2 centers from the AFC go out of 16 starters. What if you are the 3rd best? You're still DAMN GOOD but no probowl. Get it?

 

Why, if they're that great, did their running game SUCK last season?

 

I have explained this to death. If you haven't heard, Indy is a passing team by choice not by necessity. How did Indy's 5+ yds per carry look in the superbowl for a team that can't run?

 

Why, if they're so great, did their backup get sacked 3 times in 5 quarters, while Manning got sacked 10 times all year?

 

Are you really going to try to compare some chump 3rd string back up to Peyton "by god" Manning and their impact on the # of sacks? Come one man get real! Hardly enough snaps to be statistically relevant wouldn't you say?

 

All I'm saying is Manning has been among the least sacked QBs his ENTIRE career and over that time he's played with NUMEROUS OLine combinations. Aside from Glen and Saturday (only recently) his line hasn't been littered with All Pros. Manning is the one constant. Or are you suggesting that Manning has always played behind 5 Pro Bowlers?

 

Nope. I am suggesting that Manning has always played behind a good line because the colts see the importance of a good line giving Peyton the time to be all he can be.

 

It's interesting to look at the ratio of sacks given up by the Colts when Manning is behind center vs. when his backup has been in the game. Granted, that's not often because Manning has always stayed pretty healthy. But it's still telling as it's clear there's a difference when a QB not as good is taking the snaps.

 

Again are you really going to try to compare some chump 3rd string back up to Peyton?

 

You have it backwards. It's not a question of putting Manning behind five bums, it's putting a bum behind the Colt's OLine. While I know you strongly disagree, Manning, based on what I've observed of him since he was a freshman at Tennessee, would not get sacked as much as our QBs do behind our horrid OLine.

 

No my point is I would like both. I'm not advocating putting a bum behind a great oline I am advocating building a great line to protect your savior QB. Absolutely Peyton would be sacked less but he would be also be MUCH less successful than behind the lines he has benefited from in Indy.

 

He'd get rid of it first. Unlike our QBs, he DOESN'T hold on too long very often. I won't go into how his quick decisions, quick release, and ability to buy extra time contribute to his ability to avoid sacks. I won't bore you with the fact that he's one of the best play-action QBs to ever suit up and how much that helps. Nor will I bore you with an explanation of what it means to get rid of the ball ON TIME (do you know what that means in football terms?). The huge significance of all these superior traits in Manning and how they contribute to his avoiding sacks wouldn't be of the least importance to you, I feel.

 

Too late you already did bore me but thanks for telling me in detail what you weren't going to bore me with! LOL...Just kidding. Lighten up. And yes, Peyton the exception is really good at those things and makes his great line look even better.

 

 

 

Again, I hope we get the best player to help us at #9. If it's an OT, great. If it's an LB, super. If it's a QB our FO feels has franchise abillity, so much the better.

 

GO BILLS!!!

 

 

So.....that all being said AND THE ONLY THING OF IMPORTANCE HERE IS.....What does the once in a generation Peyton Manning have to do with the Bills and what we should do at the QB position or the o-line? All of this academic stuff that is being put out there is interesting bird cage liner but how does it apply to what the Bills have to do? I think this has been answered so I will pretty much disregard all of this as "I" am speaking to what the Bills should do and using examples relevant to that point.

[thebandit27]

So now you're saying I'm diminishing the importance of a good OLine? Far from it. You get a kick out of insulting people's football IQ around here. Hey, whatever floats your boat as they say.

 

But I'll play along for a minute more regarding the Colts' Oline.

 

Why haven't the Colts' OLineman, if they're so great, been recognized by their peers and writers over the years? Why, if they're that great, did their running game SUCK last season? Why, if they're so great, did their backup get sacked 3 times in 5 quarters, while Manning got sacked 10 times all year? All I'm saying is Manning has been among the least sacked QBs his ENTIRE career and over that time he's played with NUMEROUS OLine combinations. Aside from Glen and Saturday (only recently) his line hasn't been littered with All Pros. Manning is the one constant. Or are you suggesting that Manning has always played behind 5 Pro Bowlers?

 

It's interesting to look at the ratio of sacks given up by the Colts when Manning is behind center vs. when his backup has been in the game. Granted, that's not often because Manning has always stayed pretty healthy. But it's still telling as it's clear there's a difference when a QB not as good is taking the snaps.

 

You have it backwards. It's not a question of putting Manning behind five bums, it's putting a bum behind the Colt's OLine. While I know you strongly disagree, Manning, based on what I've observed of him since he was a freshman at Tennessee, would not get sacked as much as our QBs do behind our horrid OLine. He'd get rid of it first. Unlike our QBs, he DOESN'T hold on too long very often. I won't go into how his quick decisions, quick release, and ability to buy extra time contribute to his ability to avoid sacks. I won't bore you with the fact that he's one of the best play-action QBs to ever suit up and how much that helps. Nor will I bore you with an explanation of what it means to get rid of the ball ON TIME (do you know what that means in football terms?). The huge significance of all these superior traits in Manning and how they contribute to his avoiding sacks wouldn't be of the least importance to you, I feel.

 

Again, I hope we get the best player to help us at #9. If it's an OT, great. If it's an LB, super. If it's a QB our FO feels has franchise abillity, so much the better.

 

GO BILLS!!!

 

Another great case study is the 2007 Patriots with Tom Brady behind center vs. the 2008 Patriots with Matt Cassel. The same line that surrendered a mere 21 sacks in 2007 (5 fewer than the 2007 Bills, by the way) allowed 47 sacks with Cassel at the helm in 2008. It's not a coincidence.

 

P.S. if you get tired of trying to talk sense into PDaDy, try this:

 

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