Brandon Posted August 28, 2004 Posted August 28, 2004 This just keeps getting better and better: http://www.suntimes.com/output/elect/cst-nws-lips28.html
Guest RabidBillsFanVT Posted August 28, 2004 Posted August 28, 2004 He just admitted he didn't REMEMBER it, and he didn't sign it... It was 30 years ago! I love these crap stories, where guys from 30 years ago JUST NOW 'don't remember' or 'remember' things. I tend to treat these kinds of stories as the rubbish that they are. Does he remember every single award he ever gave out? He must either have an awfully big journal, or has a memory like an elephant. I sincerely doubt he has either. Get to NOVEMBER ALREADY!
Brandon Posted August 28, 2004 Author Posted August 28, 2004 I would normally agree with you, but John Kerry was not just any soldier. John Kerry came home and led a major movement against US policy in Vietnam. For that reason, a person like Lehman might very well remember Kerry and any citations he may or may not have given him. BTW, at least in this article, there's nothing said about Lehman simply not remembering the citation. In fact, his denial of the citation seems pretty emphatic, to the point that I believe he remembers Kerry quite well.
Guest RabidBillsFanVT Posted August 28, 2004 Posted August 28, 2004 I would normally agree with you, but John Kerry was not just any soldier. John Kerry came home and led a major movement against US policy in Vietnam. For that reason, a person like Lehman might very well remember Kerry and any citations he may or may not have given him. BTW, at least in this article, there's nothing said about Lehman simply not remembering the citation. In fact, his denial of the citation seems pretty emphatic, to the point that I believe he remembers Kerry quite well. 10168[/snapback] Of COURSE he would be emphatic; this is an election year, and I know that most of my fellow members are Republican. What does John Kerry's position on the war in Vietnam have to do with whether or not he GOT the silver star? Last time I checked, medals aren't taken away for speaking out after you served your country... and for him coming out NOW and saying this is highly suspicious. I discount it until the proof is there. This is getting quite out of hand, this he-said, he-said, he got, he didn't get.. If he HAS PROOF, then bring it to the public. If not, he needs to shut it!
Brandon Posted August 28, 2004 Author Posted August 28, 2004 Of COURSE he would be emphatic; this is an election year, and I know that most of my fellow members are Republican. What does John Kerry's position on the war in Vietnam have to do with whether or not he GOT the silver star? Last time I checked, medals aren't taken away for speaking out after you served your country... and for him coming out NOW and saying this is highly suspicious. I discount it until the proof is there. This is getting quite out of hand, this he-said, he-said, he got, he didn't get.. If he HAS PROOF, then bring it to the public. If not, he needs to shut it! 10171[/snapback] His position on the Vietnam war would have nothing to do with whether he actually got the silver star or not. But you said that the Secretary of the Navy would not be able to remember it after 30 years. I simply stated that I'm not so sure. Again, Kerry was an important figure in the anti-war movement, and its entirely possible that he made enough of an impression on Lehman that he could remember him later in life. But you're right, there's no real concrete evidence of it. All you have is the word of either Kerry or his detractors and who you believe largely depends upon your own political affiliation. Perhaps Kerry should release his military records in their entirety and clear up this matter once and for all.
Guest RabidBillsFanVT Posted August 28, 2004 Posted August 28, 2004 His position on the Vietnam war would have nothing to do with whether he actually got the silver star or not. But you said that the Secretary of the Navy would not be able to remember it after 30 years. I simply stated that I'm not so sure. Again, Kerry was an important figure in the anti-war movement, and its entirely possible that he made enough of an impression on Lehman that he could remember him later in life. But you're right, there's no real concrete evidence of it. All you have is the word of either Kerry or his detractors and who you believe largely depends upon your own political affiliation. Perhaps Kerry should release his military records in their entirety and clear up this matter once and for all. 10176[/snapback] I don't know WHO to believe anymore, it's gotten this bad. He SHOULD release his records.. I fully agree. Damnit, I HATE choosing between Caligula and Nero. It's ugly.
TracyLee Posted August 28, 2004 Posted August 28, 2004 This medals debate is getting so old. How many medals does Bush have? Oh, that's right, zero, zip, nada, zilch. The bottom line is Kerry voluntarily served while Bush hid behind his daddy. That's all that really matters, isn't it? Regardless of the medals issue, Kerry served, Bush didn't. Even if he did not have any medals, Kerry did the honorable thing for his country, did he not? Did Bush do the same honorable thing?
MichFan Posted August 28, 2004 Posted August 28, 2004 That's all that really matters, isn't it? Apparently not to a bunch of Vietnam-era veterans and POW's.
Brandon Posted August 28, 2004 Author Posted August 28, 2004 I don't know WHO to believe anymore, it's gotten this bad. He SHOULD release his records.. I fully agree. Damnit, I HATE choosing between Caligula and Nero. It's ugly. 10180[/snapback] No disagreement there. I don't think either side is being completely truthful, though I tend to believe the Swift Boat vets a bit more simply because of their strength in numbers. I can't completely discount that many guys saying this about him. But as for Kerry vs Bush... I'll be holding my nose as I vote for the latter this year, though luckily I do consider him a significantly better candidate than Kerry. That said, I was hoping Lieberman would win the Dem nomination. I probably would have voted for him.
Brandon Posted August 28, 2004 Author Posted August 28, 2004 This medals debate is getting so old. How many medals does Bush have? Oh, that's right, zero, zip, nada, zilch. The bottom line is Kerry voluntarily served while Bush hid behind his daddy. That's all that really matters, isn't it? Regardless of the medals issue, Kerry served, Bush didn't. Even if he did not have any medals, Kerry did the honorable thing for his country, did he not? Did Bush do the same honorable thing? 10181[/snapback] OK, since Bush joined the National Guard, he hid behind his daddy and didn't serve, is that it? You're painting with an awfully broad brush there, my liberal friend.
TracyLee Posted August 28, 2004 Posted August 28, 2004 OK, since Bush joined the National Guard, he hid behind his daddy and didn't serve, is that it? You're painting with an awfully broad brush there, my liberal friend. 10187[/snapback] Be serious, he was missing for a significant amount of time, awol if you will, while he was doing some political work elsewhere. His daddy pulled some strings and got him in the Texas guard, which he did by moving him up ahead of a long waiting list of others who had applied before Bush did. Yes, he hid behind his daddy to avoid the war. His co-hort Cheney just applied for several deferrments to avoid the war as well. Two peas in a pod. All I'm saying is Kerry voluntarily served in the war while Bush pulled strings to stay stateside. It's not about Kerry's medals it's about honor and character. Kerry did what he thought was best for his country while Bush did what he thought was best for himself.
Brandon Posted August 28, 2004 Author Posted August 28, 2004 Be serious, he was missing for a significant amount of time, awol if you will, while he was doing some political work elsewhere. His daddy pulled some strings and got him in the Texas guard, which he did by moving him up ahead of a long waiting list of others who had applied before Bush did. Yes, he hid behind his daddy to avoid the war. His co-hort Cheney just applied for several deferrments to avoid the war as well. Two peas in a pod. All I'm saying is Kerry voluntarily served in the war while Bush pulled strings to stay stateside. It's not about Kerry's medals it's about honor and character. Kerry did what he thought was best for his country while Bush did what he thought was best for himself. 10190[/snapback] And your point is? I never once said that I believed Bush's story either. I do, however, believe that many liberals cross the line when they bash Bush simply for joining the National Guard, as if joining the NG is somehow dishonoring their country.
swede316 Posted August 28, 2004 Posted August 28, 2004 And your point is? I never once said that I believed Bush's story either. I do, however, believe that many liberals cross the line when they bash Bush simply for joining the National Guard, as if joining the NG is somehow dishonoring their country. 10196[/snapback] My nephew is in the NY National Guard....Guess where he is right now...Iraq. His unit got their turn called to go to Iraq. The military is based on rotation. Units rotate. Now if Bush joined the NG and his unit deployed to Vietnam, and he stayed behind...I would have a problem with that. NG units deploy to wars, but only when their rotation turn comes up.
BRH Posted August 28, 2004 Posted August 28, 2004 My nephew is in the NY National Guard....Guess where he is right now...Iraq. His unit got their turn called to go to Iraq. The military is based on rotation. Units rotate. Now if Bush joined the NG and his unit deployed to Vietnam, and he stayed behind...I would have a problem with that. NG units deploy to wars, but only when their rotation turn comes up. 10208[/snapback] The National Guard of today is quite a bit different from the National Guard of 1968. We had a draft back then, remember ("there was one?") and those were the people who went to Vietnam. Some Guard units got called up to Vietnam, but not many. Neither of the units to which Bush was assigned was called up, and even if they were, he wasn't trained on any aircraft that were actually being used in Vietnam. I don't know the numbers offhand but I'll bet my house that members of the National Guard of 2003-04 have spent more days in-country than those who served in the National Guard between 1957-75.
IUBillsFan Posted August 28, 2004 Posted August 28, 2004 Be serious, he was missing for a significant amount of time, awol if you will, while he was doing some political work elsewhere. His daddy pulled some strings and got him in the Texas guard, which he did by moving him up ahead of a long waiting list of others who had applied before Bush did. Yes, he hid behind his daddy to avoid the war. His co-hort Cheney just applied for several deferrments to avoid the war as well. Two peas in a pod. All I'm saying is Kerry voluntarily served in the war while Bush pulled strings to stay stateside. It's not about Kerry's medals it's about honor and character. Kerry did what he thought was best for his country while Bush did what he thought was best for himself. 10190[/snapback] Where was Edwards?
Guest RabidBillsFanVT Posted August 28, 2004 Posted August 28, 2004 Where was Edwards? 10239[/snapback] Just starting college... the war was just about over by then. According to my math, he was 19 years old when the Vietnam War ended (JAN 1973, Edwards born JUN 1953/ Ask, and ye shall recieve.
BRH Posted August 28, 2004 Posted August 28, 2004 Just starting college... the war was just about over by then. According to my math, he was 19 years old when the Vietnam War ended (JAN 1973, Edwards b6rn 1953/ Ask, and ye shall recieve. 10242[/snapback] Edwards was born on June 10, 1953. His draft lottery number (as determined on 2/2/72 for all men born in 1953) was 178, but no new draft orders were issued after 1972. See here. So, although Edwards's age cohort did have a draft lottery, nobody born in 1972 received draft orders -- and even if they had, 178 was probably high enough that he wasn't going to serve anyway, even if he didn't go to college (which he did). I'm just posting this in case some yahoo here decides that John Edwards dodged the draft or something ludicrous like that.
IUBillsFan Posted August 28, 2004 Posted August 28, 2004 Edwards was born on June 10, 1953. His draft lottery number (as determined on 2/2/72 for all men born in 1953) was 178, but no new draft orders were issued after 1972. See here. So, although Edwards's age cohort did have a draft lottery, nobody born in 1972 received draft orders -- and even if they had, 178 was probably high enough that he wasn't going to serve anyway, even if he didn't go to college (which he did). I'm just posting this in case some yahoo here decides that John Edwards dodged the draft or something ludicrous like that. 10251[/snapback] He could have volunteered (I wouldn't have). I do think that if Bush can’t talk about Kerrys record accoding to some then Edwards shouldn’t be able to bring up GWB and IIRC he has/had questioned the whole AWOL BS(IMO). Bottom line IMO Kerry screwed up by using the Vietnam thing. He could have let the SBVT have their say and they would have died out I think. Now people are going to keep diging and find things like this...Right wing Blog While I am sure this link is slanted the Senate record is not and it is another version of the Bronze star. Kerry is just like most guys our stories are never the same twice fortunately for most of us no one is taking notes...Thank God.
swede316 Posted August 28, 2004 Posted August 28, 2004 He could have volunteered (I wouldn't have). I do think that if Bush can’t talk about Kerrys record accoding to some then Edwards shouldn’t be able to bring up GWB and IIRC he has/had questioned the whole AWOL BS(IMO). Bottom line IMO Kerry screwed up by using the Vietnam thing. He could have let the SBVT have their say and they would have died out I think. Now people are going to keep diging and find things like this...Right wing Blog While I am sure this link is slanted the Senate record is not and it is another version of the Bronze star. Kerry is just like most guys our stories are never the same twice fortunately for most of us no one is taking notes...Thank God. 10260[/snapback] That's where I think this thing is benefiting Kerry....as long as we are talking about his Vietnam record...we aren't looking at his Senate voting record. I think the deciding factor will be Bush's "There's What Kerry Says, and Then There's What Kerry Does" Ads. His voting record will sink Kandidate Kerry.
Brandon Posted August 28, 2004 Author Posted August 28, 2004 BTW, here's a little info that wasn't included in the original article that I find a bit interesting and could be very relevant: http://www.history.navy.mil/faqs/faq37-1.htm
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