Pete Gogolak

[birdog1960]

last nights "hx of the AFL" episode reminded me that not paying to keep good players has been rw's m.o. since the beginning. Gogolak, arguably the top kicker at the time, asked for a raise, the Bills said no and he left for the Giants. The more things change, the more they stay the same. great show though!

[bbb]

Ahmad Rashad anyone?

[CountDorkula]

last nights "hx of the AFL" episode reminded me that not paying to keep good players has been rw's m.o. since the beginning. Gogolak, arguably the top kicker at the time, asked for a raise, the Bills said no and he left for the Giants. The more things change, the more they stay the same. great show though!

 

Allen Iverson States:

 

C'Mon man. We talkin bout a kicker, not a qb, a kicker.

[DarthICE]

Ahmad Rashad anyone?

 

Bingo. and Winfield, Pat Williams etc...

[Ed_Formerly_of_Roch]

Interesting you mention that as in Larry Felsers book about the NFL, that move was cited as one of the biggest events that forced the merger. Gogolak wasn't a free agent as back then there was not such thing as a free agent. So the Bills still owned exclusive rights to him. Supposedly the two leagues had a "handshake" agreement not to sign players whom were signed by the other league. When the Giants signed him, Al Davis then declared open season on signing anyone, from there the floodgates opened and within a couple of years the merger was in place. There was a whole chapter i nthe book about this.

 

For those old enough to recall the AFL, was an interesting book to read and remember the old days.

[birdog1960]

Interesting you mention that as in Larry Felsers book about the NFL, that move was cited as one of the biggest events that forced the merger. Gogolak wasn't a free agent as back then there was not such thing as a free agent. So the Bills still owned exclusive rights to him. Supposedly the two leagues had a "handshake" agreement not to sign players whom were signed by the other league. When the Giants signed him, Al Davis then declared open season on signing anyone, from there the floodgates opened and within a couple of years the merger was in place. There was a whole chapter i nthe book about this.

 

For those old enough to recall the AFL, was an interesting book to read and remember the old days.

yup, that was the gist of it in the episode. With this move the nfl fired a pistol shot and Al Davis returned fire with a machine gun raiding the Rams and other teams for free agents. Mike Ditka was even poached from the bears.

[birdog1960]

Anybody recall if the Bills poached any big names from the NFL at that time? I can't think of any. Anybody else they let walk?

[PromoTheRobot]

I dispute that is Ralph's M.O.now. There is a difference between dumping players who want a raise and losing them to free agency. While you point out all the great players we lost, it's only fair to make a list of all the players we've paid and kept, and all the players who left for more money and sucked.

 

PTR

[todd]

I dispute that is Ralph's M.O.now. There is a difference between dumping players who want a raise and losing them to free agency. While you point out all the great players we lost, it's only fair to make a list of all the players we've paid and kept, and all the players who left for more money and sucked.

 

PTR

 

And all the players we've payed way too much money to get. Dockery, for example. This whole "Ralph is Cheap" think is not based in reality.

[Bob in STL]

Anybody recall if the Bills poached any big names from the NFL at that time? I can't think of any. Anybody else they let walk?

 

 

Not from the NFL ... They picked up Cookie Gilcrest from the CFL and he was probabaly the best all around football player in the league. Maybe both leagues? He loved to block and seemed to want to hurt people. He had tailback speed and could block like a pulling gaurd. He was bigger than most linebackers and stronger than most lineman. He was our first 1,000 yard rusher. He could catch and throw. He even kicked for the Bills for awhile!

 

Off of the field and in the locker room he was troublesome. He was always asking for more money and looking for ways to make money. One year Ralph let him sell Christmas Trees in front of the Rockpile! (Rockpile = War Memorial Stadium)

 

They traded him to Denver which was the worst team at the time. He had one more good season and then he started to fade.

 

Great stuff. The Bills had some of the best players to ever play in the AFL.

[Bob in STL]

yup, that was the gist of it in the episode. With this move the nfl fired a pistol shot and Al Davis returned fire with a machine gun raiding the Rams and other teams for free agents. Mike Ditka was even poached from the bears.

 

Gogolak's jumping was a major moment.

 

Another one was when Joe Namath signed with the Jets instead of the NFL St. Louis Cardinals. The NFL really took notice of this. A few years later Namath of course went on to lead the Jets to the first AFL Super Bowl win in SB III. Joe "Willie" Namath gauranteed the win against Don Shula's powerful Baltimore Colts. I was so proud of the Jets. Back then you rooted for the AFL no matter what. It's different now of course.

[birdog1960]

Not from the NFL ... They picked up Cookie Gilcrest from the CFL and he was probabaly the best all around football player in the league. Maybe both leagues? He loved to block and seemed to want to hurt people. He had tailback speed and could block like a pulling gaurd. He was bigger than most linebackers and stronger than most lineman. He was our first 1,000 yard rusher. He could catch and throw. He even kicked for the Bills for awhile!

 

Off of the field and in the locker room he was troublesome. He was always asking for more money and looking for ways to make money. One year Ralph let him sell Christmas Trees in front of the Rockpile! (Rockpile = War Memorial Stadium)

 

They traded him to Denver which was the worst team at the time. He had one more good season and then he started to fade.

 

Great stuff. The Bills had some of the best players to ever play in the AFL.

great story!...not sure how well he did selling trees in that neighborhood though. I can remember having a liquor bottle thrown at the window of the bus we were riding from Sears to the rockpile (used to park at sears). Showered me with glass and scared the hell out of me (I was a little kid). Was very glad when they moved.

[Bob in STL]

last nights "hx of the AFL" episode reminded me that not paying to keep good players has been rw's m.o. since the beginning. Gogolak, arguably the top kicker at the time, asked for a raise, the Bills said no and he left for the Giants. The more things change, the more they stay the same. great show though!

 

You need to understand the situation. Back then there was not a common draft. College players were drafted by both leagues. That was tough enough for the upstart AFL to have to compete with the NFL for rookies.

 

Maybe Ralph should have given him a raise but none of the owners would have taken part in a bidding war either. Ralph did them a favor and sent a message for the better of the league at that time. About that same time Ralph was helping to negotiate a sweet TV deal for the NFL. His lending money to help Al Davis in Oakland and the Sullivans in Boston (Pats*) were key to keeping the league together.

 

Ralph is in the HoF because he was a key builder of this league. He works as a partner with his fellow owners for the better of the league and the fans. Today he is no longer well connected in the league. He is not buddies with Jones, Synder and that other clown in Boston.

 

He is not perfect. He has made mistakes, but your barking up the wrong tree on this example.

[birdog1960]

You need to understand the situation. Back then there was not a common draft. College players were drafted by both leagues. That was tough enough for the upstart AFL to have to compete with the NFL for rookies.

 

Maybe Ralph should have given him a raise but none of the owners would have taken part in a bidding war either. Ralph did them a favor and sent a message for the better of the league at that time. About that same time Ralph was helping to negotiate a sweet TV deal for the NFL. His lending money to help Al Davis in Oakland and the Sullivans in Boston (Pats*) were key to keeping the league together.

 

Ralph is in the HoF because he was a key builder of this league. He works as a partner with his fellow owners for the better of the league and the fans. Today he is no longer well connected in the league. He is not buddies with Jones, Synder and that other clown in Boston.

 

He is not perfect. He has made mistakes, but your barking up the wrong tree on this example.

I do understand the situation. The draft and just about everything was a war between afl and nfl but, while rw worked as a partner to his fellow owners he often didn't work as a partner with the fans to produce winners. Then, as now, I contend, the bottom line was more important than winning to him. I'd hoped that would change as his life expectancy dwindled but I guess not.

[tennesseeboy]

Bingo. and Winfield, Pat Williams etc...

Jason Peters. Nate Clements. Ted Washington Go back to the beginning Jim Dunaway, Ron McDole, and Tom Day.

[Tcali]

Bingo. and Winfield, Pat Williams etc...

Smerlas...those Giant runs of 3 and 1/3 yds...oi vay.

[The Senator]

Interesting you mention that as in Larry Felsers book about the NFL, that move was cited as one of the biggest events that forced the merger. Gogolak wasn't a free agent as back then there was not such thing as a free agent. So the Bills still owned exclusive rights to him. Supposedly the two leagues had a "handshake" agreement not to sign players whom were signed by the other league. When the Giants signed him, Al Davis then declared open season on signing anyone, from there the floodgates opened and within a couple of years the merger was in place. There was a whole chapter i nthe book about this.

 

For those old enough to recall the AFL, was an interesting book to read and remember the old days.

I refer to that whole episode as 'The Curse of Pete Gogolak'...

 

As most know, the Bills were the AFL Champions in 1965 when Giants owner Wellington Mara violated that agreement and signed Pete from the Bills roster. It would be the Bills' last league championship. The AFL was in its infancy and Ralph was unprepared for a 'bidding war', so Gogolak left for $'greener'$ pastures. As it happens, Gogolak went on the become the NY Giants' leading scorer - a stat he owns to this day - and the Bills haven't won a league championship since...

 

 

Gogolak was also a prime factor in the "war between the leagues" and the subsequent merger of the National Football League with the American Football League. Bills owner Ralph C. Wilson, Jr. paid Gogolak $10,000 in 1964 and offered him $13,500 for 1965, exceptional pay, in those days, for a kicker. Choosing instead to take a reduction in pay to $9,900, Gogolak, like a later restricted free agent, was able to "play out his option," thereby forcing the Bills to match any other team's subsequent offer. Fortunately for Gogolak, a wealthy suitor was at hand. The NFL's New York Giants, playing in the NFL's largest market, found itself saddled with struggling rookie kicker Bob Timberlake. The Giants, having witnessed Timberlake miss his thirteenth consecutive kick, ignored the owners' "gentleman's agreement" against signing another league's players, an arrangement that had previously depressed player wages and prevented inter-league competition over otherwise valued athletes. The desperate Giants, then playing in a Yankee Stadium whose mid-winter winds sometimes rivaled those faced by Gogolak in Buffalo, signed the Bills star; Gogolak would go on to become the Giants all-time leading scorer.

 

link - Pete Gogolak (Wikipedia)

 

 

Sure enough, as fate would have it, who did the Bills run up against in their very first trip to the Superbowl???

 

You got it - the NY Giants, in Superbowl XXV, 25 seasons after their last league championship - (Coincidence? I think not.) - in the infamous, gut-wrenching, heart-breaking, "Wide-Right" game, losing by one point as Scotty Norwood stood horrified, watching his last-second kick sail just right of the goal post...

 

 

This, of course, set in motion that unprecedented string of four straight Buffalo Bills trips to the Superbowl, and four strait losses.

 

It's time to end this thing!

 

One way to undo this cursed abomination is for the Bills to sign a Cornellian from the Giants, in full retaliation for their raiding our roster (interestingly, Gogolak not only went to Cornell, but his middle name is 'Kornel'). Problem is there ain't many Cornellians in the NFL, much less on the NYG roster. I was hoping for Kevin Boothe (we need o-lineman, and he became an UFA at the end of this season) but unfortunately the Giants, no doubt fearful that the Bills would finally right this wrong, took swift advantage of the turmoil at OBD and re-signed Boothe before the Bills GM and coaching mess could be resolved.

 

So I'm once again at a loss as to how to finally end this curse and see the Bills in their rightful place as league champs. Longtime TSW member K-9 has gone so far as to suggest burying something called a 'Whammy Weenie' at the tomb of Wellington Mara in some sort of ritual grave-dance to appease the football gods...

 

Link - The Whammy Weenie (Forgotten Buffalo)

 

If anyone has one of those green things, I'm open to anything - even if it involves a trip to Hawthorne, NY and...

 

Wellington Mara's Grave

 

to finally, once-and-for-all, put an end to this torture and ...

 

 

REVERSE THE CURSE!!!!!

 

 

19 and 0 baby!!!!

 

 

GO BILLSSS!!!!!

[reddogblitz]

Jason Peters. Nate Clements. Ted Washington Go back to the beginning Jim Dunaway, Ron McDole, and Tom Day.

Flutie, Willis McGahee

 

But in fairness, in the era of FA a lot of teams lose good players because some other team offers them a ridiculous amount of money. For example, Cincy lost TJ Whose Yer Mama? to Seattle while the Jets lost Coles to Cincy. You can't keep everybody anymore.

[Bob in STL]

Jason Peters. Nate Clements. Ted Washington Go back to the beginning Jim Dunaway, Ron McDole, and Tom Day.

 

 

Lets blame Ralph for EVERY single player that left here over the 50 years. The coaches and GM had nothing to do it.

[Bob in STL]

I refer to that whole episode as 'The Curse of Pete Gogolak'...

 

As most know, the Bills were the AFL Champions in 1965 when Giants owner Wellington Mara violated that agreement and signed Pete from the Bills roster. It would be the Bills' last league championship. The AFL was in its infancy and Ralph was unprepared for a 'bidding war', so Gogolak left for $'greener'$ pastures. As it happens, Gogolak went on the become the NY Giants' leading scorer - a stat he owns to this day - and the Bills haven't won a league championship since...

 

 

Gogolak was also a prime factor in the "war between the leagues" and the subsequent merger of the National Football League with the American Football League. Bills owner Ralph C. Wilson, Jr. paid Gogolak $10,000 in 1964 and offered him $13,500 for 1965, exceptional pay, in those days, for a kicker. Choosing instead to take a reduction in pay to $9,900, Gogolak, like a later restricted free agent, was able to "play out his option," thereby forcing the Bills to match any other team's subsequent offer. Fortunately for Gogolak, a wealthy suitor was at hand. The NFL's New York Giants, playing in the NFL's largest market, found itself saddled with struggling rookie kicker Bob Timberlake. The Giants, having witnessed Timberlake miss his thirteenth consecutive kick, ignored the owners' "gentleman's agreement" against signing another league's players, an arrangement that had previously depressed player wages and prevented inter-league competition over otherwise valued athletes. The desperate Giants, then playing in a Yankee Stadium whose mid-winter winds sometimes rivaled those faced by Gogolak in Buffalo, signed the Bills star; Gogolak would go on to become the Giants all-time leading scorer.

 

link - Pete Gogolak (Wikipedia)

 

 

Sure enough, as fate would have it, who did the Bills run up against in their very first trip to the Superbowl???

 

You got it - the NY Giants, in Superbowl XXV, 25 seasons after their last league championship - (Coincidence? I think not.) - in the infamous, gut-wrenching, heart-breaking, "Wide-Right" game, losing by one point as Scotty Norwood stood horrified, watching his last-second kick sail just right of the goal post...

 

 

This, of course, set in motion that unprecedented string of four straight Buffalo Bills trips to the Superbowl, and four strait losses.

 

It's time to end this thing!

 

One way to undo this cursed abomination is for the Bills to sign a Cornellian from the Giants, in full retaliation for their raiding our roster (interestingly, Gogolak not only went to Cornell, but his middle name is 'Kornel'). Problem is there ain't many Cornellians in the NFL, much less on the NYG roster. I was hoping for Kevin Boothe (we need o-lineman, and he became an UFA at the end of this season) but unfortunately the Giants, no doubt fearful that the Bills would finally right this wrong, took swift advantage of the turmoil at OBD and re-signed Boothe before the Bills GM and coaching mess could be resolved.

 

So I'm once again at a loss as to how to finally end this curse and see the Bills in their rightful place as league champs. Longtime TSW member K-9 has gone so far as to suggest burying something called a 'Whammy Weenie' at the tomb of Wellington Mara in some sort of ritual grave-dance to appease the football gods...

 

Link - The Whammy Weenie (Forgotten Buffalo)

 

If anyone has one of those green things, I'm open to anything - even if it involves a trip to Hawthorne, NY and...

 

Wellington Mara's Grave

 

to finally, once-and-for-all, put an end to this torture and ...

 

 

REVERSE THE CURSE!!!!!

 

 

19 and 0 baby!!!!

 

 

GO BILLSSS!!!!!

 

 

So Ralph offers a guy a 35% raise, the guy doesn't take it, and then goes to one of the wealthest clubs at the time .. because that club's owner broke an agreement that Ralph would not break ... and you blame Ralph for being cheap? Then you believe that this incident is the reason why Scott Norwood misses a FG in the SB, against that same team 25 years later.

 

Makes sense to me.