SuperKillerRobots Posted January 22, 2010 Posted January 22, 2010 Actually the saying is, you can have the best QB in the world but if you have a crappy line in front of him it won't matter I think it goes hand in hand. I fyou have a QB who can get you into the right play (after reading the defense) that goes a long way towards making the oline look better. Also, a QB with a quick release will help. A good example is Indy, with Manning. They don't have a very good oline, but he is able to make it work. I'm not trying to say that you don't need both, but it's like everything else in football: there's no one right way to do things, despite what all the talking heads say.
Thurman#1 Posted January 22, 2010 Posted January 22, 2010 and then you line up Levitre, Hangartner, Wood and Butler/Meredith/Scott/Bell at RT and they manage to stay healthy, do the Bills even have a bad O line? I'm so sick of hearing about our line issues in the media (John Clayton lost a lot of credibility in my eyes last week) as if we have to revamp our entire line and start from scratch. Did they perform well this year? Of course not, but Fred Jackson averaged over 4 yards a carry and I hate to burst your bubble folks, but he is not Ladanian Tomlinson circa 2005. Not to mention the pass protection was bad, but I have seen worse (see: Rob Johnson era). Wood and Levitre in their second year, assuming Wood is back to 100%, should only improve. Bottom line, we have way bigger issues than OL- again, assuming we can figure out what's going on at LT. Even if we get a good young LT, yeah, our OL is still bad. They are extremely young and inexperienced, and at least under the old S & C coach, several of them appeared easily injured. Butler was good, so if he is back, that will be a big boost. All the others were ranked in the bottom 25% at their positions (profootballfocus.com), or maybe Wood was around the 65th percentile. (I didn't include Incognito in that because he was only here for a game or two and may be gone next season. Incognito was about at the 50th percentile, so not a huge step up anyway. Wood and Levitre didn't have good years, but for rookies, they weren't bad. There's a pretty good chance that in the long run, they might be keepers and even fine players. We can't be sure about the rest. They need experience, they need quality depth and they desperately need time to gel. So while we might not be drafting anyone else early, the o-line is likely to be a weakness for another year or two.
Thurman#1 Posted January 22, 2010 Posted January 22, 2010 I couldnt agree more...I think last years draft solidified our inside line for years to come, providing that wood does come back 100 percent-and all indications are that he will, and if hangartner plays for another 4 years...I can live with a mediocre RT if we can somehow land a franchise left tackle....and that is a huge IF though you are correct....if we could somehow get McNeil from the chargers, that allows our draft to be BPA for sure....frees us up to take McClain (i pray every night for him to fall to us) or any other DT that is still around....main point, gives us flexibility and options...but we may hav eto use that number 9 pick on a LT, which isnt the worst thing in the world Don't expect the Chargers to let McNeill go. You know who the backup at LT is on their depth chart? The starting RT is the backup at LT. And there IS no third-stringer. And that starting RT is a 2nd year UDFA, so it's not like he has tons of experience to fall back on while making the change. The Chargers simply can't afford to let McNeill go. Put him out of your mind.
Thurman#1 Posted January 22, 2010 Posted January 22, 2010 I'd actually like to see Levitre move to RT with the line looking like this: Rookie LT - Incognito - Hangman - Wood - Levitre another scenario might be if Chan wants to use Brohm as the QB and letting Brohm's college center be his pro center: Rookie LT - Incognito - Wood - Levitre - Meredith In both of these situations, for the second year, we would be starting guys next to guys they have never played with before, and again most would be switching positions. You can't just play mumbledypeg with these guys, not if you want to develop rapport, and that is absolutely crucial. I'm betting Levitre stays at LG and Butler at RT. Most likely Wood stays at RG and Hangman at C with Incognito competing against one or both of them. I could also see Wood switched to center and Hangman/Incognito at RG. But I bet that's less likely because it interferes with their ability to build on last year by taking the same positions.
Typical TBD Guy Posted January 22, 2010 Posted January 22, 2010 How many linemen does a team normally carry? It seems like keepers would be: Livetre Wood Hangman Bell Butler Meredith Incognito That's 7, if we add an LT that's 8. Sounds like too many...do any of these guys have trade value? The standard around the league is 9 (5 starters + 2 interior backups + 2 backup tackles). The Bills kept 8 this year, but would be wise to stick with 9 given all their injury and depth problems. I agree with you regarding the 7 players you highlighted as keepers, though it's painfully obvious that we are weak at tackle. That's why I'd love to see Nix go LT followed by RT in the first two rounds of the draft. It's time to stop screwing around and get this 15+ year problem area resolved once and for all. Once we have a solid OL, we can start properly evaluating QB's, coaches, RB's, WR's, etc. Keep an eye out for Bryan Bulaga, the LT junior from Iowa. I actually think he has the potential to be the best LT in the draft, even better than Okung. Plus his work ethic and attitude are very similar to that of Levitre, Wood, and Butler.
Conch Posted January 22, 2010 Posted January 22, 2010 Agree completely. We need one part in this line to be servicable to good IMO There are many different combinations that we could use. I like this one LT- Rookie or FA LG- Levitre C- Wood RG- Incognito RT- Butler/Bell/Meredith/Scott HandyMan to back up the Guards and C and you could have a pretty decent line Or maybe they flirt with Levitre at LT, and throw Handy back at C and move Wood and Incognito around a little. At least it all did on my Madden team. If they do something along these lines it would servicable and be able to attend to our biggest need on this team IMO. LB, DE, DT This solution leaves a line that is 2- 3 years away from being NFL caliber. Individually the players are promising but in reality the line is not. The problem is if we get a rookie LT that means at the beginning of the season -- LT - zero starts in the nfl (rookie) LG - 16 starts (Levitre) C - zero starts at C (Wood) LG - experience (Incog) RT - 3 or 4 starts at RT (Butler) Again a very young and inexperienced line. This equals poor blitz pick ups, slow execution, dumb penalties, lost football games, a QB that will not have time to throw deep and a QB that will quickly lose confidence as soon as the opposing teams figure out the line can only support a check down offense. This offensive will repeat years 2002 through 2009.
PaattMaann Posted January 22, 2010 Posted January 22, 2010 This solution leaves a line that is 2- 3 years away from being NFL caliber. Individually the players are promising but in reality the line is not. The problem is if we get a rookie LT that means at the beginning of the season -- LT - zero starts in the nfl (rookie) LG - 16 starts (Levitre) C - zero starts at C (Wood) LG - experience (Incog) RT - 3 or 4 starts at RT (Butler) Again a very young and inexperienced line. This equals poor blitz pick ups, slow execution, dumb penalties, lost football games, a QB that will not have time to throw deep and a QB that will quickly lose confidence as soon as the opposing teams figure out the line can only support a check down offense. This offensive will repeat years 2002 through 2009. Butler has started WAYYYYYYYYY more than 3 games at RT haha
Thurman#1 Posted January 22, 2010 Posted January 22, 2010 Why was Levitre rated top rookie at G? Wood would have been in the running if no broken leg week 11. Maybe two all rookie G's. How many rookie guards got any playing time? Did they have any competition? Guards drafted in 2009in the top 5 rounds (couldn't be bothered to look further): 51 Andy Levitre Bills 78 Louis Vasquez Chargers 79 Kraig Urbik Steelers 123 Rich Ohrnberger Pats* 133 Tyronne Green Chargers 163 Duke Robinson Panthers 167 Herman Johnson Cardinals 170 George Bussey Pats* Three guys drafted before the fourth round. Now, somebody might have been switched from tackle to guard or something, or center to guard like Wood, but seriously, that's not a lot of competition and Levitre SHOULD have beaten them out, he was drafted before them.
Thurman#1 Posted January 22, 2010 Posted January 22, 2010 I think it goes hand in hand. I fyou have a QB who can get you into the right play (after reading the defense) that goes a long way towards making the oline look better. Also, a QB with a quick release will help. A good example is Indy, with Manning. They don't have a very good oline, but he is able to make it work. I'm not trying to say that you don't need both, but it's like everything else in football: there's no one right way to do things, despite what all the talking heads say. Actually, the Indy line is pretty solid. Saturday at C is one of the all-time greats, the two guards are above average, as is the RT. LT is the only psoition where they have trouble, and they often end up chipping or leaving someone in to block to help him. Again, check out the rankings at profootballfocus.com if you doubt those quick evals.
tennesseeboy Posted January 22, 2010 Posted January 22, 2010 and then you line up Levitre, Hangartner, Wood and Butler/Meredith/Scott/Bell at RT and they manage to stay healthy, do the Bills even have a bad O line? I'm so sick of hearing about our line issues in the media (John Clayton lost a lot of credibility in my eyes last week) as if we have to revamp our entire line and start from scratch. Did they perform well this year? Of course not, but Fred Jackson averaged over 4 yards a carry and I hate to burst your bubble folks, but he is not Ladanian Tomlinson circa 2005. Not to mention the pass protection was bad, but I have seen worse (see: Rob Johnson era). Wood and Levitre in their second year, assuming Wood is back to 100%, should only improve. Bottom line, we have way bigger issues than OL- again, assuming we can figure out what's going on at LT. Wood Levitre and Incognito are fine at gaurd, assuming a good recovery for Wood. Hamgartner is okay at center, but we should be on the lookout for better. The two areas we have nothing are the LT and RT. Draft a free agent LT and use the number one pick on Anthony Davis and play him at RT for a year or two. Now THAT is pretty much a good offensive line that will protect our qb. Of course we should look to free agency and the draft to make sure we have some quality depth as well.
Thurman#1 Posted January 22, 2010 Posted January 22, 2010 Butler has started WAYYYYYYYYY more than 3 games at RT haha Not unless you count college.
Deadstroke Posted January 22, 2010 Posted January 22, 2010 I'd actually like to see Levitre move to RT with the line looking like this: Rookie LT - Incognito - Hangman - Wood - Levitre another scenario might be if Chan wants to use Brohm as the QB and letting Brohm's college center be his pro center: Rookie LT - Incognito - Wood - Levitre - Meredith my main idea is that I'd love to keep the mean attitude guys on the O-line (Wood, Incognito and Levitre)...Levitre played OT in college and Wood played OC...Meredith was a 2nd round draft talent that I think has some upside...keep hangman as depth along with 1 or 2 of Bell, Scott and Ramsey..also keep Butler as OG backup...jmo Of course then again Butler very well could pan out at RT and Meredith, who performed excellently at end of season could be the LT precluding the need to draft a LT. Just thinking out loud, kotic.
Bufcomments Posted January 22, 2010 Posted January 22, 2010 LT Rookie ( draft pick Davis or Campell) LG Levitre C Wood RG Incognito RT Bulter if he can stay healthy Backups Hangartner (C and G) Bell and Meridith T plus one more.
timba Posted January 22, 2010 Posted January 22, 2010 There are three O line configurations that I could see the Bills moving to (assuming they sign Incognito and everybody else gets healthy). Situation 1: LT - FA/Draft Pick LG - Levitre C - Wood RG - Incognito RT - Butler Wood is moved over to his college position, Levitre can continue to grow into as a guard, and Incognito brings the nasty. We get some depth as Hangman would be moving to C, G backup. The questions would be 'Can Butler stay healthy?' 'What are we getting to address the LT position?' Situation 2: LT - FA/Draft Pick LG - Levitre C - Hangman RG - Wood RT - Butler This situation would be about maintaining stability in the middle of the line and building out from there. Incognito would be coming off the bench as a backup. Still have the question marks with Butler and at LT. Situation 3: LT - FA/Draft Pick LG - Incognito C - Hangman RG - Wood RT - Levitre We could still maintain some consistency in the center of the line with wood, hangman, and incognito. Levitre got some reps at T this year and didn't seem like he was overmatched. An offseason of reps will do wonders for Levitre as during the season he just stepped in and was solid. We would be removing having to rely on Butler and allow him to come off the bench (less of a chance for him to get hurt) where he now has experience to play G, T. The question would remain about the LT position but we'd be down to one.
Perkins Posted January 22, 2010 Posted January 22, 2010 There are three O line configurations that I could see the Bills moving to (assuming they sign Incognito and everybody else gets healthy). Situation 1: LT - FA/Draft Pick LG - Levitre C - Wood RG - Incognito RT - Butler Wood is moved over to his college position, Levitre can continue to grow into as a guard, and Incognito brings the nasty. We get some depth as Hangman would be moving to C, G backup. The questions would be 'Can Butler stay healthy?' 'What are we getting to address the LT position?' Situation 2: LT - FA/Draft Pick LG - Levitre C - Hangman RG - Wood RT - Butler This situation would be about maintaining stability in the middle of the line and building out from there. Incognito would be coming off the bench as a backup. Still have the question marks with Butler and at LT. Situation 3: LT - FA/Draft Pick LG - Incognito C - Hangman RG - Wood RT - Levitre We could still maintain some consistency in the center of the line with wood, hangman, and incognito. Levitre got some reps at T this year and didn't seem like he was overmatched. An offseason of reps will do wonders for Levitre as during the season he just stepped in and was solid. We would be removing having to rely on Butler and allow him to come off the bench (less of a chance for him to get hurt) where he now has experience to play G, T. The question would remain about the LT position but we'd be down to one. I think your situation 1 and 3 are close. I would like to see LT-FA/ Draft LG- Levitre C- Wood RG- Inconito RT- Merideth With this situation Butler could come in at RG or RT. Hang would back up C or LG Then you would have Bell as the backup for LT or RT depending on how an injury situation would unfold. This will give us 8 roster spots for offensive line.
turftoe Posted January 23, 2010 Posted January 23, 2010 Incognito, Is he a free agent or do the Bills have his rights for next year?
Big Turk Posted January 23, 2010 Posted January 23, 2010 Bottom line you can have the best line in the world, if you don't have a QB worth a **** it doesn't matter. We go into 2010 with these same losers as our QB corp and it will be ANOTHER losing season. Having a great OLine with a loser at QB worked out pretty well for the Jets...
uforesircher Posted January 23, 2010 Posted January 23, 2010 Bottom line you can have the best line in the world, if you don't have a QB worth a **** it doesn't matter. We go into 2010 with these same losers as our QB corp and it will be ANOTHER losing season. iceman - you know im a positive thinking guy but i have to agree with you. we cannot have the same talent set at qb in 2010 as we did in 2009 - and i dont think we will.
Sisyphean Bills Posted January 23, 2010 Posted January 23, 2010 What's the "huge if"? I'm sure the new GM and HC have enough understanding of the fundamentals of the game that they know one needs talent on the OL to have any chance.
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