The Senator Posted January 21, 2010 Posted January 21, 2010 As a percentage of tax revenues, rw's $1billion insurance agency has probably received more subsidy than bmw in Spartansburg. I think that makes the analogy apt. You do? REALLY??? OK - let's take a look at the #'s. BMW's market capitalization is $20.4B. In 1992, they received $150M in gov't subsidies - using the CPI, that converts to roughly $230M in 2010 dollars, or roughly 12% of BMWs total market cap valuation. Not sure if Spartanburg, SC falls under the TVA or some other quasi-gov't entity, but I'm sure they're also receiving cheap, taxpayer-subsidized power. I'll have to assume there was also a favorable land-acquisition deal and hefty breaks on tax assessment values but would need more time to dig up those #'s, so I'll leave it be for now, which will work in your favor. Also haven't bothered with any further gov't subsidies for plant expansion since the initial construction, which no doubt occurred since 1992 - but hey, what's another $100 million or so? I do know that BMW received a tax credit of $1,500 per new job - that's public record. And, if SC is anything at all like WNY, all those figures are probably underestimated to make the gov' t 'investment' seem more attractive to the taxpayers. So that's what I got on BMW AG, so far. Whaddaya got on Ralph C. Wilson, Jr., retired insurance salesman?
The Senator Posted January 21, 2010 Posted January 21, 2010 Man you should move to Florida with your boat. You have too much time on your hands to dispute the ethical reasonings of Ralph Wilson. Bottom line you feel we don't owe him for having the franchise here in Orchard Park. Good. We know your opinion. Me: I've been a season ticket holder for over 10 years. I deserve the right to be pissed off. We have not had a good product to cheer for in a very long long time. I'm sick of Cash to the cap, ( ironically, we never seem to spend to the cap anyways) Ralph begging for dollars when He wants to fix the stadium, Hiring low level coaches, watching Ralph Wilson's halftime speeches, Hearing Thurman Thomas blab about January 15th as if it was the day we can mark in our calendars (sack of shiPPP) watching Poz, break another bone. and the recent state of the Bills. He (Ralph) owes his fans alot. ethically speaking. So why dont you get in your new boat and sail your Ross Perot ass to FLA. Thank you and Good Night Yeah yeah, blah blah. Got it. You got a hair across your ass 'cause you didn't take a giant risk with a $25K roll-of-the-dice investment 50 years ago and nurture it into a $$$billion$$$ asset. Tough sh-t. I bought a pair of season tix when I moved back to WNY in '97, so I guess that gives me the right to piss and moan too, but ya don't hear me whinin'. (And before that, I traveled x-country to a couple of home games every season, and a road game or two as well.) Tell me, crybaby - if it weren't for Ralph Wilson, where do you honestly think the Bills would be playing now? And what would they be called, since 'Buffalo Bills' would make no sense in another state? And how happy would you be w/out such an 'inferior product' to whine about? (BTW - Ross spends his leisure time in Bermuda, not FL - not sure why, probably favorable tax treatment - but I've seen him and his big floppy ears flappin' in the wind as he races around his private island in his big-ass Cigarette speedboat. )
gobillsinytown Posted January 21, 2010 Posted January 21, 2010 Yeah yeah, blah blah. Got it. You got a hair across your ass 'cause you didn't take a giant risk with a $25K roll-of-the-dice investment 50 years ago and nurture it into a $$$billion$$$ asset. Tough sh-t. I bought a pair of season tix when I moved back to WNY in '97, so I guess that gives me the right to piss and moan too, but ya don't hear me whinin'. (And before that, I traveled x-country to a couple of home games every season, and a road game or two as well.) Tell me, crybaby - if it weren't for Ralph Wilson, where do you honestly think the Bills would be playing now? And what would they be called, since 'Buffalo Bills' would make no sense in another state? And how happy would you be w/out such an 'inferior product' to whine about? And there's the ultimate reality. It may or may not be true that the only reason the Bills are bad is because of Ralph Wilson. But it is definitely true that the only reason the Bills are still in Buffalo is because of Ralph Wilson. I still don't get why some "fans" think Ralph is just a greedy old businessman. Actually when you think about it, Ralph's decision to keep the Bills in Buffalo was a bad business move. Especially considering that there have been plenty of opportunities to move the franchise to other cities, where his franchise value would now be much higher.
May Day 10 Posted January 21, 2010 Posted January 21, 2010 Definitely legally, and perhaps morally, Ralph Wilson does not owe it to the City of Buffalo. However you cant fault the people of Buffalo and all Bills fans for being very pissed off if the team moves due to Ralph "maxing out"
gobillsinytown Posted January 21, 2010 Posted January 21, 2010 Definitely legally, and perhaps morally, Ralph Wilson does not owe it to the City of Buffalo. However you cant fault the people of Buffalo and all Bills fans for being very pissed off if the team moves due to Ralph "maxing out" I think the mistake that most people are making here is in the amount of control Ralph is going to have over the situation. Even if he tries to put some sort of iron-clad plan in his will, there's still no guarantee. Wills get busted all the time. There will be a lot of wrangling for this franchise once he dies. I also think it's a lot more complicated than people realize. It's not like he's willing his favorite tennis racket to someone. The potential value of the franchise, depending on how many people are after it, will be close to a billion dollars.
truth on hold Posted January 21, 2010 Posted January 21, 2010 sadly he doesn't. and when RW passes his greedy kids could easily say "if we sell to an LA owner we get another $300 million for the franchise. Screw Buffalo and Bills fans who made us rich all these years ... we're outta here!"
May Day 10 Posted January 21, 2010 Posted January 21, 2010 The Bills may need a few things to fall into place. Before Ralph passes: 1. Jacksonville moves to LA 2. The NFL is seriously ready for a round of expansion. and then 3. Jacobs, Rich Jr., Golisano, Billionaire X or any combination have serious interest in buying the Bills.
starrymessenger Posted January 21, 2010 Posted January 21, 2010 Ralph Wilson owns the Buffalo Bills. They are his personal property, as most have said. We do not know whether the franchise is seen by him as just another business asset, or as something special. The latter is a possibility, given that his legacy as a great builder/organizer would be better cemented if the team stayed in the place where it originated and his life as owner of this team is after all prominently woven into the fabric of football history. On the other hand, I don't know that you can make a team stay in the same venue permanently anyway, absent community ownership (which only GB seems able to do) so why would Mr. Wilson forego a premium price when his purchaser could realize it? He is a shrewed businessman after all.
truth on hold Posted January 21, 2010 Posted January 21, 2010 RW's playing both sides here. While he's still with us he wants the team in Buffalo BUT he wants his heirs to have the option to maximize the resale value as they fit. Otherwise he'd sell the team now to a Buffalo based owner.
Pine Barrens Mafia Posted January 22, 2010 Posted January 22, 2010 Yea, God forbid his poor family has only $600,000,000 to live on rather than $800,000,000. My friggin heart bleeds for them. Exactly my point. Ralph's actions are those of a man who doesn't care about "legacy." If they were, he'd sell before he dies.
Mr. WEO Posted January 22, 2010 Posted January 22, 2010 Yeah yeah, blah blah. Got it. You got a hair across your ass 'cause you didn't take a giant risk with a $25K roll-of-the-dice investment 50 years ago and nurture it into a $$$billion$$$ asset. Tough sh-t. I bought a pair of season tix when I moved back to WNY in '97, so I guess that gives me the right to piss and moan too, but ya don't hear me whinin'. (And before that, I traveled x-country to a couple of home games every season, and a road game or two as well.) Tell me, crybaby - if it weren't for Ralph Wilson, where do you honestly think the Bills would be playing now? And what would they be called, since 'Buffalo Bills' would make no sense in another state? And how happy would you be w/out such an 'inferior product' to whine about? (BTW - Ross spends his leisure time in Bermuda, not FL - not sure why, probably favorable tax treatment - but I've seen him and his big floppy ears flappin' in the wind as he races around his private island in his big-ass Cigarette speedboat. ) If Ralph had sold this team 15 years ago, say, when he was 76, the Bills would still be here. The new owner would have paid off his debt and would be raking in 30-40 mil a year in profit, just like Ralph. There would even have been the possibility that the new owner was not a near senile, meddling nonagenarian who didn't seem capable of fielding a team the fans could be proud of.
Bring Back Kelly Posted January 22, 2010 Posted January 22, 2010 Yeah yeah, blah blah. Got it. You got a hair across your ass 'cause you didn't take a giant risk with a $25K roll-of-the-dice investment 50 years ago and nurture it into a $$$billion$$$ asset. Tough sh-t. I bought a pair of season tix when I moved back to WNY in '97, so I guess that gives me the right to piss and moan too, but ya don't hear me whinin'. (And before that, I traveled x-country to a couple of home games every season, and a road game or two as well.) Tell me, crybaby - if it weren't for Ralph Wilson, where do you honestly think the Bills would be playing now? And what would they be called, since 'Buffalo Bills' would make no sense in another state? And how happy would you be w/out such an 'inferior product' to whine about? (BTW - Ross spends his leisure time in Bermuda, not FL - not sure why, probably favorable tax treatment - but I've seen him and his big floppy ears flappin' in the wind as he races around his private island in his big-ass Cigarette speedboat. ) Wow Do I hate Tax guys. except my own of course. Man, I'd love to see this old Buzzard out one night so I can kick his ass. Just so you know senator, this site is for all of us who want to B word about the bills. If you don't like it, you can move along little doggy Go spew your tax lnfo somewhere else.
gobillsinytown Posted January 22, 2010 Posted January 22, 2010 If Ralph had sold this team 15 years ago, say, when he was 76, the Bills would still be here. The new owner would have paid off his debt and would be raking in 30-40 mil a year in profit, just like Ralph. There would even have been the possibility that the new owner was not a near senile, meddling nonagenarian who didn't seem capable of fielding a team the fans could be proud of. Not possible. If he had sold the team then, it would have been gone. The western new york area, like it or not, is not going to generate that amount of profit. The most profitable NFL teams are those that live in cities with significant corporate presence. The extra money they make comes from corporate naming rights, luxury suites and other sponsorships. Those revenue streams are not available in western new york. As far as debt load is concerned, any new owner buying the team 15 years ago would still be in debt.
The Senator Posted January 22, 2010 Posted January 22, 2010 Wow Do I hate Tax guys. except my own of course. Man, I'd love to see this old Buzzard out one night so I can kick his ass. Just so you know senator, this site is for all of us who want to B word about the bills. If you don't like it, you can move along little doggy Go spew your tax lnfo somewhere else. Wow is right! You want to kick a 91-year-old man's ass, eh? Nice. Well, I'm sure you'll run into him - all you billionaires hang out in the same places, right? All due respect - which, right now, is none - I've been posting on this board for many years. I've met many of the members and some of the staff, and I can assure you this site was not founded for a-holes who only want to B word about the Bills - there are other, lesser Bills sites for the mentally challenged. This site was founded (and funded) by diehard Bills fans, for diehard Bills fans, not to 'B word about the Bills' (though that's your right and seems to be the M.O. of many recent members), but to exchange views and ideas about our favorite NFL franchise. I'll continue to post here, despite the recent influx of morons like you - or at least until there are so many of you that it becomes intolerable, so rather that advising me to 'move along little doggy', I'd advise you to go screw yourself. And if all you really want to truly want to do is 'B word about the Bills', try calling WGR between 3 and 7 - I'm sure you'll find plenty of kindred whiners there with the same limited mental skill-set as yourself. (And BTW, I'm not a 'tax guy' - just someone who hates paying them to support bloated government, corrupt politicians, and wasteful pork.) Have a great day.
The Senator Posted January 22, 2010 Posted January 22, 2010 If Ralph had sold this team 15 years ago, say, when he was 76, the Bills would still be here. The new owner would have paid off his debt and would be raking in 30-40 mil a year in profit, just like Ralph. There would even have been the possibility that the new owner was not a near senile, meddling nonagenarian who didn't seem capable of fielding a team the fans could be proud of. Really? Is that what you guys in Provincetown really think? In 1995, the Rams moved to St. Louis and the Raiders back to Oakland, leaving a HUGE void in Los Angeles, the nation's second largest TV market. The NFL has been hankering for someone to put a team there ever since, and you can be sure (well, not you, but most intelligent folks) that if the Bills had an owner other than RW, that the lure of that market would have been too much to pass up - IF they hadn't been lured to St. Louis first to fill the void left when the Cardinals left fo Arizona in 1988. In fact, Jim Orthwein was going to move your beloved Cheatriettes* to St. Louis in 1992, before selling them to Bob Kraft in 1994, who almost moved them to Hartford, CT right around the time you proffered, the mid-90's - so there's two more cities (Hartford & Boston) that may have targeted the Bills. Further, two years later, in 1997, the Houston Oilers moved to Tennessee, leaving many football-starved Texas oil-billionaires without a franchise - another market too good to pass up for someone without a rock-solid commitment to keeping the Bills in Buffalo. And, if the Bills had been available in 1995, perhaps it would have been them moving to Tennessee (both Nashville AND Memphis desperately wanted teams and had buyers and stadium plans in the works). So your novel notion that the Bills would have remained here had Ralph sold them 15 years ago - as well as your ill-mannered vindictive about Mr. Wilson - is utter nonsense, like most of your vacuous comments.
IndyMark Posted January 23, 2010 Posted January 23, 2010 Wow Do I hate Tax guys. except my own of course. Man, I'd love to see this old Buzzard out one night so I can kick his ass. Just so you know senator, this site is for all of us who want to B word about the bills. If you don't like it, you can move along little doggy Go spew your tax lnfo somewhere else. Really? Maybe this site is for Bills fans period; and those fragile and meek who B word continually should move along? Just sayin'.
zazie Posted January 23, 2010 Posted January 23, 2010 Not possible. If he had sold the team then, it would have been gone. The western new york area, like it or not, is not going to generate that amount of profit. The most profitable NFL teams are those that live in cities with significant corporate presence. The extra money they make comes from corporate naming rights, luxury suites and other sponsorships. Those revenue streams are not available in western new york. As far as debt load is concerned, any new owner buying the team 15 years ago would still be in debt. They should just move the Bills to Beijing, the new corporate capital of the world. America is over, not just Buffalo. Thanks, W.
Mr. WEO Posted January 23, 2010 Posted January 23, 2010 Really? Is that what you guys in Provincetown really think? In 1995, the Rams moved to St. Louis and the Raiders back to Oakland, leaving a HUGE void in Los Angeles, the nation's second largest TV market. The NFL has been hankering for someone to put a team there ever since, and you can be sure (well, not you, but most intelligent folks) that if the Bills had an owner other than RW, that the lure of that market would have been too much to pass up - IF they hadn't been lured to St. Louis first to fill the void left when the Cardinals left fo Arizona in 1988. In fact, Jim Orthwein was going to move your beloved Cheatriettes* to St. Louis in 1992, before selling them to Bob Kraft in 1994, who almost moved them to Hartford, CT right around the time you proffered, the mid-90's - so there's two more cities (Hartford & Boston) that may have targeted the Bills. Further, two years later, in 1997, the Houston Oilers moved to Tennessee, leaving many football-starved Texas oil-billionaires without a franchise - another market too good to pass up for someone without a rock-solid commitment to keeping the Bills in Buffalo. And, if the Bills had been available in 1995, perhaps it would have been them moving to Tennessee (both Nashville AND Memphis desperately wanted teams and had buyers and stadium plans in the works). So your novel notion that the Bills would have remained here had Ralph sold them 15 years ago - as well as your ill-mannered vindictive about Mr. Wilson - is utter nonsense, like most of your vacuous comments. As usual, your post is full of nonsense and fabrication. Clearly no new (or old) owner has wanted to move to LA for many years---it seems quite easy for them to "pass up" and that market has no lure (and still no stadium). The Bills would have been lured to the lucrative market of......St Louis??? The city that "most intelligent folks" are supposing will LOSE thier team with the next owner (to LA-haha)? Clearly, the pats didn't move to St. Louis and the "move" to Hartford was such an obvious bluff that only you still believe that Kraft had any real intent to move to that tiny dump of a market. The Bills in Tennessee in the mid 90's? At that time, the NFL was expanding and invited cities and potential owners to present their cases for a new team. Memphis and St. Louis were rejected by the league. And clearly you have no grasp of the situation which brought an NFL team to Houston, but it had nothing to do with Ralph or the Bills. The "football-starved billionaire" from Houston got a franchise by outbidding the clowns (including Roski) in LA. You should stick to things you are good at, like gay bashing and (ironically?) Mike Leach man-love.
The Senator Posted January 27, 2010 Posted January 27, 2010 As usual, your post is full of nonsense and fabrication. Clearly no new (or old) owner has wanted to move to LA for many years---it seems quite easy for them to "pass up" and that market has no lure (and still no stadium). The Bills would have been lured to the lucrative market of......St Louis??? The city that "most intelligent folks" are supposing will LOSE thier team with the next owner (to LA-haha)? Clearly, the pats didn't move to St. Louis and the "move" to Hartford was such an obvious bluff that only you still believe that Kraft had any real intent to move to that tiny dump of a market. The Bills in Tennessee in the mid 90's? At that time, the NFL was expanding and invited cities and potential owners to present their cases for a new team. Memphis and St. Louis were rejected by the league. And clearly you have no grasp of the situation which brought an NFL team to Houston, but it had nothing to do with Ralph or the Bills. The "football-starved billionaire" from Houston got a franchise by outbidding the clowns (including Roski) in LA. You should stick to things you are good at, like gay bashing and (ironically?) Mike Leach man-love. Hah! I would have expected a die-hard Patriettes* fan like yourself to be more knowledgeable of the circumstances surrounding the near-loss of Boston's NFL team*, but guess I should have known better. Facts are that there's been more talk about moving your Cheatriettes* in the time span you cite (15 years ago) than there ever was about moving the Bills in their entire 50-year history. (Only once, when the domed stadium deal in Lancaster fell apart in 1970, has RW ever talked seriously about moving the team - at that time, he seriously considered Seattle.) Facts are that Jim Orthwein fully intended to move the NE Patriots* to his native St. Louis when he bought the team from Victor Kiam in 1992, but instead ended up selling the team two years later to Bob Kraft - who immediately began plans to move them to a new stadium in Hartford... Panel Approves Proposal For a Stadium in Hartford (NY Times, 1993) If Hartford's governmental bureaucracy could have moved more expeditiously to that stadium built, you guys in Provincetown would most certainly be cheering for a Connecticut-based NE* NFL franchise... Talk Has Many Knocking On Door To Football Heaven Handshake on Deal to Move Patriots to Hartford (NY Times, 1998) PATRIOTS SIGN DEAL TO MOVE TO HARTFORD If it was nothing more than a vile canard on the part of Bob Kraft, Cheatriettes* fans certainly didn't think so at the time... GO PATS* (NE* fan blog) As fate would have it, delays in Hartford and voter outrage in Massachusetts caused the deal to fall apart at the 11th hour... Impasse Cleared for Securing Football Stadium Site in Hartford, Conn New England Patriots terminate Hartford stadium agreement ...but the deal was most definitely 'in place', moving forward, and not - as you so erroneously described it - an "obvious bluff". Had Massachusetts lawmakers not reacted, your team* would most certainly be in Hartford today. OTOH, and totally contrary to your ill-considered opinion, with all those cities eager for (and receiving) NFL franchises since 1995 - and with all the franchises 'in play' during the same period - if the Bills has any other owner than Ralph, it would likely be us Buffalonians bemoaning the loss of our team. Stick to 'bird' watching in Herring Cove (NSFW).
Mr. WEO Posted January 27, 2010 Posted January 27, 2010 Hah! I would have expected a die-hard Patriettes* fan like yourself to be more knowledgeable of the circumstances surrounding the near-loss of Boston's NFL team*, but guess I should have known better. Facts are that there's been more talk about moving your Cheatriettes* in the time span you cite (15 years ago) than there ever was about moving the Bills in their entire 50-year history. (Only once, when the domed stadium deal in Lancaster fell apart in 1970, has RW ever talked seriously about moving the team - at that time, he seriously considered Seattle.) Facts are that Jim Orthwein fully intended to move the NE Patriots* to his native St. Louis when he bought the team from Victor Kiam in 1992, but instead ended up selling the team two years later to Bob Kraft - who immediately began plans to move them to a new stadium in Hartford... Panel Approves Proposal For a Stadium in Hartford (NY Times, 1993) If Hartford's governmental bureaucracy could have moved more expeditiously to that stadium built, you guys in Provincetown would most certainly be cheering for a Connecticut-based NE* NFL franchise... Talk Has Many Knocking On Door To Football Heaven Handshake on Deal to Move Patriots to Hartford (NY Times, 1998) PATRIOTS SIGN DEAL TO MOVE TO HARTFORD If it was nothing more than a vile canard on the part of Bob Kraft, Cheatriettes* fans certainly didn't think so at the time... GO PATS* (NE* fan blog) As fate would have it, delays in Hartford and voter outrage in Massachusetts caused the deal to fall apart at the 11th hour... Impasse Cleared for Securing Football Stadium Site in Hartford, Conn New England Patriots terminate Hartford stadium agreement ...but the deal was most definitely 'in place', moving forward, and not - as you so erroneously described it - an "obvious bluff". Had Massachusetts lawmakers not reacted, your team* would most certainly be in Hartford today. OTOH, and totally contrary to your ill-considered opinion, with all those cities eager for (and receiving) NFL franchises since 1995 - and with all the franchises 'in play' during the same period - if the Bills has any other owner than Ralph, it would likely be us Buffalonians bemoaning the loss of our team. Stick to 'bird' watching in Herring Cove (NSFW). Ha! It took you 4 days to look this old news up? You left out the part where Providence was drawing up stadium plans also--how'd you miss that? ahahaha. Look, Kraft is a bright guy--he obviously wanted to stay in Mass, but he wanted something form the state (which he, of course got). It all worked out as he wanted it to. Look, why would he ultimately pass up a stadium that would cost him less than $100 million for a deal that cost him $350 million (start scratching head). The poor suckers in CT were the big losers. As for "all those cities", you're just wrong and making stuff up. Go back to hyping Leach---it's your only strong point (for its humor value). And your incessant gay bashing is not convincing, Butch.
Recommended Posts