Are Favre and Manning both top 5 QBs all time?

[PushthePile]

I love the use of "All-Time" when almost 70 years of NFL history is ignored.

It's impossible to start making legit lists. The NFL has had so many great players and using the term all-time is always going to leave quaified players out. IMO, players should be compared to players in their respective eras. Most of these lists are comprised of only QBs from the last 20-30 years.

[Chalkie Gerzowski]

1. Joe Montana (San Francisco 49ers, Kansas City Chiefs)

2. John Elway (Denver Broncos)

3. Johnny Unitas (Baltimore Colts, San Diego Chargers)

4. Brett Favre (Green Bay Packers, N.Y. Jets, Minnesota Vikings)

5. Peyton Manning (Indianapolis Colts)

6. Tom Brady (New England Patriots)

7. Steve Young (Tampa Bay Buccaneers, San Francisco 49ers)

8. Dan Marino (Miami Dolphins)

9. Otto Graham (Cleveland Browns)

10. Fran Tarkenton (Minnesota Vikings, N.Y. Giants, Minnesota Vikings)

 

 

always open to modifications

 

I think I made this list before the season. If Manning wins another Super Bowl, I think he vaults to #2 on my list. I have him a bit low perhaps right now. I think Manning is neck and neck with Unitas at this point. The nostalgia angle maybe works when people think back to Unitas. One thing I found kind of revealing... when Brady was injured in 2008, Matt Cassel came in played pretty well, the offense kept moving. He's obviously better than any of the Colts backups, but holy hell the Jim Sorgi types are horrid. That team operates that way cause of Manning.

 

As far as Elway being second... I remember back to the 80s when he took an above average Broncos team to the Super Bowl on three occasions. Their defense was alright, their running game was average. He kind of carried that team as far as they could go... many comeback games, 4th quarter wins. Those Denver teams wouldn't have gone as far if he wasn't on the team. If Gary Kubiak was the Denver QB, they don't accomplish much of anything.

 

Dan Marino to me was always a stat freak but the situation often seemed precarious for a D when he was on the field. They never had a real strong running game in Miami when he was there, but didn't Marino always want to throw the ball anyway? And 'ol man Shula let Danny have his way at that point.

[papazoid]

SWEET 16 with QB Rating

 

#1- Montana, Joe (92.3)

#2- Manning, Peyton (94.7)

#3- Marino, Dan (86.4)

#4- Brady, Tom (92.9)

#5- Elway, John (79.9)

#6- Graham, Otto (86.6)

#7- Unitas, Johnny (79.9)

#8- Farve, Brett (85.4)

#9- Young, Steve (96.8)

#10- Warner, Kurt (93.8)

#11-Tarkenton, Fran (80.4)

#12- Aikman, Troy (81.6)

#13- Kelly, Jim (84.4)

#14- Staubach, Roger (83.4)

#15- Starr, Bart (80.5)

#16- Bradshaw, Terry (70.9)

 

honorable mention: Brees, Fouts, Moon, Dawson

[Gugny]

Terrell Davis is the reason Elway has rings. Marino was a wimp, I saw him dive out of the way many times after throwing a INT. As far as Kelly, where not the AFC Championship games playoffs?

I agree that a strong running game has a lot to do with Elway's success, but not Terrell Davis. That O-line was so good, they were successful with whoever was carrying the ball. Regardless, Elway's close to a top 5 guy. Kelly's not even in the top 10; probably the lower half of the top 20.

[drnykterstein]

Peyton is the best QB ever in my book.

[5 Wide]

7) Dan Marino

TD- 420

Interceptions- 252

Yards- 61,361

QB Rating- 86.4

Rushing Yards- 87

Rushing TD- 9

 

 

How did Marino only have 87 rushing yards in his career? I know he wasn't mobile, but 87 yards total?

[rockpile]

With modification to the title of this thread, mg12 has a valid point.

 

In his opinion, which is based on QBs he has watched play since 1988 when he was 11, it is not a bad list.

 

I was 11 in 1964, so I might add Len Dawson, Joe Willie, Johnny Unitas, and others to the list.

 

KRC, you are one of the few who could dig back to the 1920's to come up with a best all-time QB list. Personally I never saw Jim Thorpe play, so...

 

It is also hard to draw a line on AFL QBs (there were 3 or 4 AFLs) and AAFC QBs whose teams were assimilated into the NFL (we are Borg).

[KRC]

KRC, you are one of the few who could dig back to the 1920's to come up with a best all-time QB list. Personally I never saw Jim Thorpe play, so...

 

Are you saying that I am old?

[drnykterstein]

Also to anyone who ranks the Cheater over Jeff Garcia on the rank of greatest QB's ever.

[Orton's Arm]

SWEET 16 with QB Rating

 

#1- Montana, Joe (92.3)

#2- Manning, Peyton (94.7)

#3- Marino, Dan (86.4)

#4- Brady, Tom (92.9)

#5- Elway, John (79.9)

#6- Graham, Otto (86.6)

#7- Unitas, Johnny (79.9)

#8- Farve, Brett (85.4)

#9- Young, Steve (96.8)

#10- Warner, Kurt (93.8)

#11-Tarkenton, Fran (80.4)

#12- Aikman, Troy (81.6)

#13- Kelly, Jim (84.4)

#14- Staubach, Roger (83.4)

#15- Starr, Bart (80.5)

#16- Bradshaw, Terry (70.9)

 

honorable mention: Brees, Fouts, Moon, Dawson

I'm not entirely comfortable with Bradshaw's inclusion on this list. As you point out, his career passer rating is 70.9. Kelly Holcomb's is 79.2. I know passer rating is a flawed stat (it takes into account completion percentage, even though it shouldn't). And I know we're looking at different eras, and it was harder for people to complete passes in the '70s than it was in the 2000s. And I know Bradshaw put up much better stats in the postseason than the regular season.

 

But still.

 

At least Bradshaw came in ahead of Holcomb in average yards per pass attempt (7.2 to 6.6). Both players had about a 1:1 TD/INT ratio.

 

Bradshaw played behind some very good offensive lines, had amazing running games to take the pressure off the passing game, and was throwing to guys like Lynn Swan. Kelly Holcomb's supporting casts, in both Cleveland and Buffalo, generally consisted of chopped liver.

 

Kelly Holcomb is a significantly better quarterback than most people give him credit for. But he clearly does not belong anywhere near a list of 16 greatest QBs. Neither, I suspect, does Terry Bradshaw.

[vincec]

I don't want to say too much here, but modern QBs look a lot better than their predecessors for a variety of reasons. Everyone knows that the relaxation of pass interference rules led to a massive improvement in passing statistics and the birth of the modern passing game, but the incredible protection that today's QBs get from physical punishment (can't hit them high, can't hit them low, can' t hit them even a split second late, can't lead with your head, etc) and the help that OL get (holding basically ok, no head slaps, etc) mean that it's very difficult to intimidate a QB and that today's QBs can play into their late 30s or probably even early 40s effectively. Manning and Brady could probably play until their 45, if they don't quit for other reasons.

 

This doesn't mean that today's QBs ARE better, however. How would today's great QBs fare if they played under the 1960s or 1970s rules? I think many of them would be in trouble. I don't know who's the greatest, but three of my favorite QBs:

 

Steve Young. If I could take 1 QB to lead my team, he'd be the guy. Could do it all, throw for high % and run it. Unbelievable physical ability to play the position.

 

Kenny Stabler. Him completing 66% of his passes in 1976 is like someone completing 80% today. Plus, his leadership skills and toughness were lights out. One tough SOB.

 

Roger Staubach. Could do it all. A strong passer who could move around but would also hang in the pocket and take big hits to make plays. Incredible leadership skills. Cowboys were never out of a game with him behind center.

[rockpile]

Are you saying that I am old?

Did you see Jim Thorpe play? Then...... YES!

[dave mcbride]

SWEET 16 with QB Rating

 

#1- Montana, Joe (92.3)

#2- Manning, Peyton (94.7)

#3- Marino, Dan (86.4)

#4- Brady, Tom (92.9)

#5- Elway, John (79.9)

#6- Graham, Otto (86.6)

#7- Unitas, Johnny (79.9)

#8- Farve, Brett (85.4)

#9- Young, Steve (96.8)

#10- Warner, Kurt (93.8)

#11-Tarkenton, Fran (80.4)

#12- Aikman, Troy (81.6)

#13- Kelly, Jim (84.4)

#14- Staubach, Roger (83.4)

#15- Starr, Bart (80.5)

#16- Bradshaw, Terry (70.9)

 

honorable mention: Brees, Fouts, Moon, Dawson

QB rating is pretty irrelevant for the old timers - it's unbelievable what DBs were allowed to do back in the day (e.g., the clothesline as the tackle of choice).

[BillsWatch]

7) Dan Marino

TD- 420

Interceptions- 252

Yards- 61,361

QB Rating- 86.4

Rushing Yards- 87

Rushing TD- 9

 

 

How did Marino only have 87 rushing yards in his career? I know he wasn't mobile, but 87 yards total?

 

Rushing yards includes losses and he had a lot of losses.

 

And Marino's fault was he was not a complete quarterback even before his season ending leg break where he got his break (pun intended) into adverting doing a lot of advertising while on IR. Marino got his RBs killed because he was so unconvincing in his fakes when RBs got the ball and reason why Dolphins did not make Superbowl. The team was imbalanced and skewed for Danny's WRs.

 

Playoff Record as Starting QB: 1983 (0-1), 1984 (2-1), 1985 (1-1), 1990 (1-1), 1992 (1-1), 1994 (1-1), 1995 (0-1), 1997 (0-1), 1998 (1-1), 1999 (1-1)

[Tcali]

SWEET 16 with QB Rating

 

#1- Montana, Joe (92.3)

#2- Manning, Peyton (94.7)

#3- Marino, Dan (86.4)

#4- Brady, Tom (92.9)

#5- Elway, John (79.9)

#6- Graham, Otto (86.6)

#7- Unitas, Johnny (79.9)

#8- Farve, Brett (85.4)

#9- Young, Steve (96.8)

#10- Warner, Kurt (93.8)

#11-Tarkenton, Fran (80.4)

#12- Aikman, Troy (81.6)

#13- Kelly, Jim (84.4)

#14- Staubach, Roger (83.4)

#15- Starr, Bart (80.5)

#16- Bradshaw, Terry (70.9)

 

honorable mention: Brees, Fouts, Moon, Dawson

generally like your list but I'd put Bradshaw,Fouts,Staubach above Kelly. Moon would be tied with Kelly at about 16 or 17.-And Elway #2,Brady at #10.

[Rico]

Are Favre and Manning both top 5 QBs all time?

IMO Absolutely NOT, at least right now... maybe things will look different after the season.

 

My top 5:

1. Joe Montana

2. Johnny Unitas

3. Otto Graham

4. Tom Brady

5. John Elway

 

And any QBs with glaring holes in their resume aren't worthy of consideration either (ie. Steve Young, Kurt Warner)

[truth on hold]

before favre retires he'll only every meaningful statistic. and if manning stays healthy he'll end up breaking a lot of them

 

so if stats mean anything, then yes

[sharper802]

An interesting question, especially considering they could meet in the SB this year. Some other classic SB QB matchups....

 

SB 32 (Favre, Elway)

SBs 27 and 28 (Kelly, Aikman)

SB 24 (Montana, Elway)

SB 19 (Montana, Marino)

SBs 10 and 13 (Staubach, Bradshaw)

 

It's actually pretty amazing how few Super Bowls have legendary QB matchups, and how even fewer of them were competitive ballgames.

 

My top 5 QBs all time (I've been watching football since 1988...when I was 11... so forgive my omissions of great QBs of the past...I'm ranking guys that I've actually seen play....I think it would be pathetic to put guys on that I've never seen perform other than on a few highlight reels):

 

1.John Elway (lost 1st 3 SBs despite the fact he virtually singlehandedly got them there)

2.Joe Montana (4 SB wins, made up for lack of physical skills by being a brilliant mind)

3.Peyton Manning (for being a priveleged kid growing up, is the hardest working QB you'll find)

4.Brett Favre (this season, at age 40, cemented his place as all time great, if he hadn't already)

5.Jim Kelly (over Dan Marino, 4 straight SB apps, was like having an off. coordinator on the field)

 

right up there for me...Marino, Aikman, S.Young

Come on dude Kelly probably is not in the top 20 QB's of all time if you go way back and may not even be in the top 10 of recent QB's. Brady, Young, Marino, Aikman, Warner, Rothlisberger(sp?) either have better stats or SB rings to go along with excellent regular season play. One could make an arguement even for Phil Simms with his SB and decent regular season success. The jury is still out on guys like Eli, Cutler, and Rivers.

[sharper802]

IMO Absolutely NOT, at least right now... maybe things will look different after the season.

 

My top 5:

1. Joe Montana

2. Johnny Unitas

3. Otto Graham

4. Tom Brady

5. John Elway

 

And any QBs with glaring holes in their resume aren't worthy of consideration either (ie. Steve Young, Kurt Warner)

What was Young's glaring hole ? Retiring with the best QB rating of all time?

[sharper802]

7) Dan Marino

TD- 420

Interceptions- 252

Yards- 61,361

QB Rating- 86.4

Rushing Yards- 87

Rushing TD- 9

 

 

How did Marino only have 87 rushing yards in his career? I know he wasn't mobile, but 87 yards total?

Sacks are subtracted from rush yards I believe.... In fact if anyone could have ever got to him at a reasonable rate he probably would have a net negative number. Dam he was almost untouchable at times...