MadBuffaloDisease Posted November 22, 2004 Posted November 22, 2004 Who cares, Holt doesn't play for the Bills. Just win, by any means necessary. 128291[/snapback] And it was legal, not cheating or getting away with something. Sure it was dirty, but no more dirty than anything the Pats do.
ICE Posted November 22, 2004 Posted November 22, 2004 And it was legal, not cheating or getting away with something. Sure it was dirty, but no more dirty than anything the Pats do. 128466[/snapback] MBD, isnt it funny how fans want to win but want it 'clean'. Sorry folks there is no 'clean' football. IT IS FOOTBALL! Want clean, go play badmitton or table hockey or something. If you don't think this team was just about as 'dirty' as any other during Marv Levy's time...you don't have a clue.
Rico Posted November 22, 2004 Posted November 22, 2004 SIMON I gotta disagree, no one has played close to Nate Odomes level yet. I can give clements the #2 nod but look at it like this....we can both say 'Nate' is the best and be right 128457[/snapback] Young-uns. NC makes my top 5. 1. Robert James 2. Butch Byrd 3. Nate Odomes 4. Booker Edgerson 5. Nate Clements
MadBuffaloDisease Posted November 22, 2004 Posted November 22, 2004 MBD, isnt it funny how fans want to win but want it 'clean'. Sorry folks there is no 'clean' football. IT IS FOOTBALL! Want clean, go play badmitton or table hockey or something. If you don't think this team was just about as 'dirty' as any other during Marv Levy's time...you don't have a clue. 128472[/snapback] I want to win "clean," as in not getting helped by the refs. What Clements did was legal but could be considered dirty. I can live with it, but don't necessarily want to see it a lot.
ICE Posted November 22, 2004 Posted November 22, 2004 I want to win "clean," as in not getting helped by the refs. What Clements did was legal but could be considered dirty. I can live with it, but don't necessarily want to see it a lot. 128480[/snapback] I think we are splitting hairs though. If he came from the rear or flank and the guy has no defense....Ok I have an issue. Clearly Nate made himself visable to Holt. I have zero issues. On your note, did you notice Troy Aikman's comment on the ref for the Giants game? he said something like ' you know a ref can throw a flag on every play if he wanted to...seems this guy plans on doing just that' It was so bad the other two were saying things like 'this guy is trying to get more face time than eli manning'
Simon Posted November 22, 2004 Author Posted November 22, 2004 throwing a low block at the knees is NOT dirty If it's away from the ball it is dirty, and from the descriptions I'm hearing thats what it was. Hey if you get cut trying to attack the play, thats the way it goes. But if somebody cuts me on the other side of the field, there's going to be a fight. Going after a guy's knees away from the play is dirty football and everybody whose ever played knows it and hates it. 1. Robert James2. Butch Byrd 3. Nate Odomes 4. Booker Edgerson 5. Nate Clements At 36, I'm too young to have appreciated most of those guys, although I've heard many good things about RJames. But I don't think Odomes was as good as Clements simply because while Odomes was a great coverguy, Nate is a also a great coverguy but he's also a pickreturn for a TD just waiting to happen. Nate is a better athlete also but less experiecned than Odomes at the peak of his prowess. If Clements ever becomes as technically sound and mentally savvy as Odomes became, he will be the best CB in the league not named "Bailey".
ICE Posted November 22, 2004 Posted November 22, 2004 If Clements ever becomes as technically sound and mentally savvy as Odomes became, he will be the best CB in the league not named "Bailey". 128536[/snapback] When will that be? He has played for 4 seasons now? When will he mature to that point? As for me CB means CB not CB/Return man. As for the best CB, it's still odomes in my book. Granted I would love it IF NC can step up and have the smarts and cover skills NO Had!
Simon Posted November 22, 2004 Author Posted November 22, 2004 When will that be? He has played for 4 seasons now? When will he mature to that point? As for me CB means CB not CB/Return man. Like most corners, it took Odomes a few years before he really started to perfect his craft. Drafted in '87 I'd say it was around '91 that he really became a proficient coverman. That's four years and not co-incidentally I think we're seeing Nate reach that same level this season right before our very eyes. The difference is that I think Nate can continue to improve because of his size, speed and athleticism. And when I talk about his ability to go to the house I'm not talking about as a returner, I'm talking about as a corner who knows how to take it away. I think that's the biggest reason so many opponents fear putting the ball anywhere near him.
_BiB_ Posted November 22, 2004 Posted November 22, 2004 My usually worthless .02 cents. Whether it was legal or not, it looked cheap. The dumb part to me is that it was out there for God and everybody to see. Hard to hide when you're a corner on a WR. The Bills D plays plenty tough not to have to resort to that crap. Ask Faulk.
Spiderweb Posted November 22, 2004 Posted November 22, 2004 Nate Odoms ws an outstanding "zone" corner. Remember, he played in Walt Corey's two deep. Yet I'm not quite so sure that his man to man skills were any better. Clements is faster, and wins hands down in run support. Not that Clements is a Winfield, but Odoms run support more closely resembled that of Deon Sanders than does Clements. Overall, I'd I'd give the edge to Clements at this point, but in pure pass defense, Odoms might have the edge.
Kelly the Dog Posted November 22, 2004 Posted November 22, 2004 Like most corners, it took Odomes a few years before he really started to perfect his craft. Drafted in '87 I'd say it was around '91 that he really became a proficient coverman. That's four years and not co-incidentally I think we're seeing Nate reach that same level this season right before our very eyes. The difference is that I think Nate can continue to improve because of his size, speed and athleticism.And when I talk about his ability to go to the house I'm not talking about as a returner, I'm talking about as a corner who knows how to take it away. I think that's the biggest reason so many opponents fear putting the ball anywhere near him. 128783[/snapback] Dig ya dude, but I think you're nuts on this Clements thing. He's a fabulous athlete. He has potential to be great but he is far, far from great. He whiffs on tackles all the time coming up to catch receivers after they have caught short passes on him. I still find him completely responsible for the Jax loss because of that one play which meant the game was OVER. I still find him personally responsible for the Houston loss last year when he made TWO abhorrent plays that directly resulted in 10 points just because he was a selfish punk. For a playmaker he surely doesn't make a lot of plays, and I think Antoine Winfield has more INTs this year than Nate. I still think he gets beat regularly by receivers. Is good but certainly not great in run support. Now, as a PR, he is pretty damn good.
Mickey Posted November 22, 2004 Posted November 22, 2004 Thanx for the input y'all. Sounds like Nate is as sick of losing as Moulds is.Stay off the knees, Nate. There's better ways to dirt guys. Yeah, he's only the best corner I've ever watched in a Bills uni. I can see where you'd get really sick of that 128389[/snapback] You apparently never saw Tony Greene, Robert James or Nate Odomes play?
sweet baboo Posted November 22, 2004 Posted November 22, 2004 I dunno about you guys, but I remember seeing winfield making ALOT of tackles that seemed a little too low, but no one ever said anything...i always wondered there weren't any murmurs about his near knee tackling...i figured people just overlooked it because he was so short
Rico Posted November 22, 2004 Posted November 22, 2004 You apparently never saw Tony Greene, Robert James or Nate Odomes play? 128849[/snapback] Greene played FS.
RI Bills Fan Posted November 22, 2004 Posted November 22, 2004 Greene played FS. 128863[/snapback] Greene also played a year at corner. It was a desperation move. IIRC it was the year Robert James blew out his knee.
Campy Posted November 22, 2004 Posted November 22, 2004 I dunno about you guys, but I remember seeing winfield making ALOT of tackles that seemed a little too low, but no one ever said anything...i always wondered there weren't any murmurs about his near knee tackling...i figured people just overlooked it because he was so short 128860[/snapback] I watched the game, but I don't recall seeing this incident. By all accounts it sounds like the play was away from Holt, and tackling him would've been defensive holding. I'd rather not see our guys do that stuff. I love the way our D lines up, looks opponents in the eye, and smacks 'em around, but dirty stuff like Nate's play is an invitation for someone to take a shot at Willis' knee.
Guest Guest_billsindallas_* Posted November 22, 2004 Posted November 22, 2004 He was close, then dove at his knees. 128255[/snapback] Issac Holt admitted he chopped blocked Nate Clements before Nate chopped blocked him. What comes around goes around so stop the hypocrital complaining!
Sen. John Blutarsky Posted November 22, 2004 Posted November 22, 2004 It was a run play and Clements/Holt were away from the play and Clements took Holt out at the knees. However, they didn't show video of all the crackback blocks the WRs throw during the game either. Ask Torry Holt to only block people that are looking at him before HE complains about somebody taking 1 shot at him in a game. And now a less intellingent comment....THAT'S HOW WE ROLL IN THE B-LO, SUCK IT UP AND GO BACK TO YOUR DOME. IF YOU DONT LIKE GETTING HIT GO RUN TRACK!
Guest Guest_ch19079_* Posted November 22, 2004 Posted November 22, 2004 ok, so our CBs were taking cheap shots at their WRs. and our WR were taking cheep shots at there CBs..... but i didnt see 1 flag for an illegal act. if it was a ILLEGAL play they would have noticed. and i guess it happened several times. taking someones knees out is not a cheep shot. its an effective blocking move that is used all the time in the NFL. you dont usually see the WR or CBs doing it, usually its the RB or O-Lineman. it would be diffrent if it was from the side or behind. but it wasnt. ALL LEGAL. he just wants to find an excuse for 3 huge plays given up by the special teams, and INTs in endzone and on the 5 yard line, by his QB. and this just added salt to an open wound after there last game vs. the pats. the rams choaches are winers and i bet hes out of a job at the end of the season.
Beerball Posted November 22, 2004 Posted November 22, 2004 I dunno about you guys, but I remember seeing winfield making ALOT of tackles that seemed a little too low, but no one ever said anything...i always wondered there weren't any murmurs about his near knee tackling...i figured people just overlooked it because he was so short 128860[/snapback] Big difference. AW would go low to make a tackle. In this case, it was a running play away from Clements and Holt. They were basically away from the action, Holt is watching the play and Clements rolled on his knees. Not sure where that came from...
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