Indy Dave Posted November 22, 2004 Posted November 22, 2004 The funny thing is it really didn't have too much to do with security being "lax". It wasn't lax, you just don't go to an NBA game expecting a fan to provoke a fight with a player and then have 50 people brawling. I really don't think security needs to be increased. Maybe in Detroit though, their fans are thugs. 129030[/snapback] Security failed in two areas. One, too many of these people apparently took the job for a free shirt and a good seat at the game. Watch the tape and see how many of these people are standing there like they bought ringside seats. I also think someone with some type of authority should have gone over to the area where the Pacer players left the court and removed all of the fans who were gathering there and just waiting for the players to walk by so they can throw more crap at them. That, in my mind, where security personnel completely failed. I know this sort of thing hasn't happened before, but you still should always have a plan in place to protect players as they exit the court. Like I said yesterday, I'm not defending anything that any of the Pacers players did. The trio of Jackson, Artest and O'Neal should get suspended. I think the suspensions were a bit harsh though. Artest for 30, Jackson for 20, O'Neal for 10...something like that. I am a Pacers fan, but I'm trying to be reasonable here. (You won't hear me saying that this is a conspiracy to keep Indiana from winning a title.) However, I think Wallace started the whole thing, and the fans' actions escalated. I don't see how anyone can argue with that. Does that mean the Pacers should have reacted the way they did? No. But the bottom line is, the Pacers went to Detroit and beat their tails. Wallace got fouled (NOT flagrantly as another poster said earlier in this thread) and completely overreacted out of frustration for his team getting it handed to him. Just when order was being restored, the fan threw the cup at Artest. Then all hell broke loose. Again, I don't condone what those guys did afterwards. But it seems to me that the Pistons and their fans, in some strange way, are getting rewarded for this because Indiana has gone from the best team in the NBA to a team that could miss the playoffs, assuming the appeal isn't won. That does not seem right to me. I say that as a Pacers fan, and I say that as a sports fan. I agree with the others who said that fans seem to think they have this entitlement of acting like morons because they paid for a seat in the arena, and because they have been drinking and that's just what drunk people do. And finally, Ben Wallace questioning whether or not Artest should have fouled him given the situation of the game is completely ridiculous. The whole calling card for the Pistons in the 80s and last year was NO EASY BASKETS. That's regardless of the situation. Typical bully. They are all tough until someone returns the favor. I suppose on the next possession, Artest could have dribbled down the middle of the lane and threw down a tomahawk dunk and the Pistons would have stood there and watched.
stevestojan Posted November 22, 2004 Posted November 22, 2004 I'm not "hurt" by it. I'm just pissed off at the league and their continued double standard. If these guys played for the Knicks their sentences wouldn't have been half as long. 129062[/snapback] You think too highly of your team BF. No one gives a s#it about the Pacers. Really. I'm not a b-ball fan, and I have no idea what you're talking about as far as they are the scapegoat. And I mention that I am not a fan because a casual observer like me would know if there was a team with a Bad rep. I think you WANT to be the team that gets picked on. No one cares about the Pacers... really. Artest acted like an uncaged animal. Now he's taking a timeout and losing $5M... BF, there's a reason why he got the longest suspension: he's a loose cannon and commited a crime. End of story.
Kelly the Dog Posted November 22, 2004 Posted November 22, 2004 The fans were pissed and being ass-holes because the Pistons were losing. They never would have been throwing things had Artest and the Pacers been getting blown out, they would have been laughing at him.
Pete Posted November 22, 2004 Posted November 22, 2004 Woodstock? wasn't that near a farm...bahhhhhhhhhhhhh 129074[/snapback] BF prefers the New York sheep. He likes their accents when the bahhhhhhhhh
BF_in_Indiana Posted November 22, 2004 Posted November 22, 2004 The fans were pissed and being ass-holes because the Pistons were losing. They never would have been throwing things had Artest and the Pacers been getting blown out, they would have been laughing at him. 129085[/snapback] Thank you end of story. This is what it boils down to, they can't handle the fact that we are a better team and are coming to take what's ours. They're just sore losers. :I starred in Brokeback Mountain: Detroit and your fans!!
Alaska Darin Posted November 22, 2004 Posted November 22, 2004 I've only been to ONE large gathering that ever had any sort of violent behavior and that's Woodstock '99. I've been to hundreds of sporting events and never have I seen a group of fans act like the ones in Detroit the other night. Maybe you are the one that should stay away from the sheep. 129069[/snapback] Normally it takes some sort of trigger mechanism to setoff the behavior. There have been thousands of sporting events in Detroit over the years with probably no worse a percentage of violence than other cities of similiar size. Granted, there have been post championship riots there, but that behavior isn't exclusive to Detroit either. There is a legal term for this behavior, though I can't recall it right now. Pathetic attempt at returning fire. You French?
BF_in_Indiana Posted November 22, 2004 Posted November 22, 2004 Woodstock? wasn't that near a farm...bahhhhhhhhhhhhh 129074[/snapback] Actually it was on an Air Force base in 1999, but thanks for playing.
BF_in_Indiana Posted November 22, 2004 Posted November 22, 2004 BF prefers the New York sheep. He likes their accents when the bahhhhhhhhh 129087[/snapback] And you prefer small children, what's your point?
_BiB_ Posted November 22, 2004 Posted November 22, 2004 You think too highly of your team BF. No one gives a s#it about the Pacers. Really. I'm not a b-ball fan, and I have no idea what you're talking about as far as they are the scapegoat. And I mention that I am not a fan because a casual observer like me would know if there was a team with a Bad rep. I think you WANT to be the team that gets picked on. No one cares about the Pacers... really. Artest acted like an uncaged animal. Now he's taking a timeout and losing $5M... BF, there's a reason why he got the longest suspension: he's a loose cannon and commited a crime. End of story. 129082[/snapback] It's about time that somebody had the nuts to do something like this. You ever hear the guy talk? "I'm a man and a man can should do what he wants..." There is no, repeat, no excuse for a player going into the stands and wailing away on the spectators. The spectators that provoke crap should be arrested and banned from attending any games. Someone making 10 million a year to bounce an orange ball around a hardwood floor assumes a role, and acting like a 10 year old playground bully isn't it.
Alaska Darin Posted November 22, 2004 Posted November 22, 2004 Security failed in two areas. One, too many of these people apparently took the job for a free shirt and a good seat at the game. Watch the tape and see how many of these people are standing there like they bought ringside seats.I also think someone with some type of authority should have gone over to the area where the Pacer players left the court and removed all of the fans who were gathering there and just waiting for the players to walk by so they can throw more crap at them. That, in my mind, where security personnel completely failed. I know this sort of thing hasn't happened before, but you still should always have a plan in place to protect players as they exit the court. Like I said yesterday, I'm not defending anything that any of the Pacers players did. The trio of Jackson, Artest and O'Neal should get suspended. I think the suspensions were a bit harsh though. Artest for 30, Jackson for 20, O'Neal for 10...something like that. I am a Pacers fan, but I'm trying to be reasonable here. (You won't hear me saying that this is a conspiracy to keep Indiana from winning a title.) However, I think Wallace started the whole thing, and the fans' actions escalated. I don't see how anyone can argue with that. Does that mean the Pacers should have reacted the way they did? No. But the bottom line is, the Pacers went to Detroit and beat their tails. Wallace got fouled (NOT flagrantly as another poster said earlier in this thread) and completely overreacted out of frustration for his team getting it handed to him. Just when order was being restored, the fan threw the cup at Artest. Then all hell broke loose. Again, I don't condone what those guys did afterwards. But it seems to me that the Pistons and their fans, in some strange way, are getting rewarded for this because Indiana has gone from the best team in the NBA to a team that could miss the playoffs, assuming the appeal isn't won. That does not seem right to me. I say that as a Pacers fan, and I say that as a sports fan. I agree with the others who said that fans seem to think they have this entitlement of acting like morons because they paid for a seat in the arena, and because they have been drinking and that's just what drunk people do. And finally, Ben Wallace questioning whether or not Artest should have fouled him given the situation of the game is completely ridiculous. The whole calling card for the Pistons in the 80s and last year was NO EASY BASKETS. That's regardless of the situation. Typical bully. They are all tough until someone returns the favor. I suppose on the next possession, Artest could have dribbled down the middle of the lane and threw down a tomahawk dunk and the Pistons would have stood there and watched. 129075[/snapback] For what they pay and how they train these "security" people, I wouldn't risk my ass either. The NBA and other sports should be ashamed of themselves for continuing the practice of having security only to prevent liability with one eye on profit.
BF_in_Indiana Posted November 22, 2004 Posted November 22, 2004 Normally it takes some sort of trigger mechanism to setoff the behavior. There have been thousands of sporting events in Detroit over the years with probably no worse a percentage of violence than other cities of similiar size. Granted, there have been post championship riots there, but that behavior isn't exclusive to Detroit either. There is a legal term for this behavior, though I can't recall it right now. Pathetic attempt at returning fire. You French? 129098[/snapback] You are right, it takes a trigger mechanism to start a situation like these. Here's two of them. 1. Wallace tried provoking Artest into a fight and sets fans into frenzy. 2. Detroit fan assaults Artest with his beer.
BuffaloBob Posted November 22, 2004 Posted November 22, 2004 Probably the best post I have read on teh subject.My only disagreement is that I think Artest's foul on Wallace was a lot worse than you imply. Artest is like 6'5" 250lbs and when he drove a right into the back of Wallace's shoulderblade while his arms were extended, he could indeed have hurt him. And the fact that the cheapie came at teh end of a game that was already decided meant something as well. That foul was delivered with bad intentions and everybody involved knew it. I also think it's worth mentioning that Artest threw the first actual punch on the night. 128392[/snapback] Well Simon, I think this is one of things upon which reasonable minds can differ. I've seen the foul many times, as I am sure you have. Every time I see it, while agree it was unnecessary and was designed to send a message, I think it is part of the game generally, and probably part of that game specifically. The Pistons are a physically intimidating team, and I am sure there was a lot of "hard" fouls in the game, especially on layups. I think that Wallace was being reminded of something he or one of his teammates did earlier in the game, or perhaps the message was simply that we beat your butts tonight and nothing will be easy when playing us, not even at the end of the game. That was for future contests no doubt to played between the two teams. As for whether it had any chance of injuring Wallace, I just don't see it. BUT, I don't think Aretst should have been too surprised that Wallace came after him either! As for the fan who threw the drink, I would have enjoyed seeing Artest shove it up his keister!
Alaska Darin Posted November 22, 2004 Posted November 22, 2004 You are right, it takes a trigger mechanism to start a situation like these. Here's two of them. 1. Wallace tried provoking Artest into a fight and sets fans into frenzy. 2. Detroit fan assaults Artest with his beer. 129117[/snapback] Dear Lord, you are an idiot.
BF_in_Indiana Posted November 22, 2004 Posted November 22, 2004 Dear Lord, you are an idiot. 129122[/snapback] Are you debating these two facts? Let me guess you don't think it happened like that at all right?
Indy Dave Posted November 22, 2004 Posted November 22, 2004 For what they pay and how they train these "security" people, I wouldn't risk my ass either. The NBA and other sports should be ashamed of themselves for continuing the practice of having security only to prevent liability with one eye on profit. 129108[/snapback] Point taken, but the fact is if you are hired as security, you do what you can to make things secure, regardless of what you are being paid. Plain and simple. You see state troopers at the collegiate level. In the NBA, you have a bunch of rent-a-cops who don't know what they are doing and couldn't intimidate an invalid.
Kgun5 Posted November 22, 2004 Posted November 22, 2004 Point taken, but the fact is if you are hired as security, you do what you can to make things secure, regardless of what you are being paid. Plain and simple.You see state troopers at the collegiate level. In the NBA, you have a bunch of rent-a-cops who don't know what they are doing and couldn't intimidate an invalid. 129125[/snapback] Well, those youngens can't be trusted like liquored up adults, now can they? You're right...It's pretty silly.
Kelly the Dog Posted November 22, 2004 Posted November 22, 2004 Again, I am not condoning Artest for going into the stands. That was totally wrong and he needs to be suspended. But really, look what happened. He has gotten so much crap from the league and the fans for being a jerk, which he is. Then in the middle of the game, a player comes after HIM and PUNCHES him. What does he do? The thing NO ONE expects out of him. The LAST GUY IN THE LEAGUE one would expect to NOT retaliate. He walks away. He laughs it off. The fracas continues. What does he do? Join in? Help his teammates? No, he walks away. What he was told to do by the league. What no one expects him to do. What not many players would do after being attacked and punched. He LAYS DOWN, literally, for crissakes. How does he get repaid for finally doing what the NBA and fans have abused him about? He gets stevestojan thrown at him by the fans. He gets hit in the face with the full cup. Did it hurt him? Hell, no. But any of you idiots know that a slap in your face from someone could set you off more than a punch in the face sometimes. It doesn't matter that the cup couldn't have hurt him. What matters is he finally did what was asked of him, walk away, and he was treated with what? Total disrespect and garbage thrown at him. That still doesn't mean he should have charged the guy. What it does mean is that one has to look at the total fracas and history and everything that transpired. You can't just say Ron Artest the thug got hit with a wittle cup and charged into the stands to beat people. That is not what happened.
Alaska Darin Posted November 22, 2004 Posted November 22, 2004 Point taken, but the fact is if you are hired as security, you do what you can to make things secure, regardless of what you are being paid. Plain and simple.You see state troopers at the collegiate level. In the NBA, you have a bunch of rent-a-cops who don't know what they are doing and couldn't intimidate an invalid. 129125[/snapback] If I'm getting paid $8 an hour with no benefits, there's no way I'm getting in the middle of a riot with professional athletes. Sorry. It's more of an indictment on our society that people think they have the right to act like total azzholes because they bought a ticket. If you wouldn't act like that in front of your mother...
stevestojan Posted November 22, 2004 Posted November 22, 2004 You are right, it takes a trigger mechanism to start a situation like these. Here's two of them. 1. Wallace tried provoking Artest into a fight and sets fans into frenzy. 2. Detroit fan assaults Artest with his beer. 129117[/snapback] OUCH!!!! Ahhhh - seriously.... I am in severe PAIN right now... Reading your posts is making my head f-cking hurt so f-cking bad. Quit being a PACER HOMER and look at this situation for what it is: a thug going after a guy for hitting him with water.
Alaska Darin Posted November 22, 2004 Posted November 22, 2004 Again, I am not condoning Artest for going into the stands. That was totally wrong and he needs to be suspended. But really, look what happened. He has gotten so much crap from the league and the fans for being a jerk, which he is. Then in the middle of the game, a player comes after HIM and PUNCHES him. What does he do? The thing NO ONE expects out of him. The LAST GUY IN THE LEAGUE one would expect to NOT retaliate. He walks away. He laughs it off. The fracas continues. What does he do? Join in? Help his teammates? No, he walks away. What he was told to do by the league. What no one expects him to do. What not many players would do after being attacked and punched. He LAYS DOWN, literally, for crissakes. How does he get repaid for finally doing what the NBA and fans have abused him about? He gets stevestojan thrown at him by the fans. He gets hit in the face with the full cup. Did it hurt him? Hell, no. But any of you idiots know that a slap in your face from someone could set you off more than a punch in the face sometimes. It doesn't matter that the cup couldn't have hurt him. What matters is he finally did what was asked of him, walk away, and he was treated with what? Total disrespect and garbage thrown at him. That still doesn't mean he should have charged the guy. What it does mean is that one has to look at the total fracas and history and everything that transpired. You can't just say Ron Artest the thug got hit with a wittle cup and charged into the stands to beat people. That is not what happened. 129142[/snapback] Of course he didn't retaliate. The dude facing him would have wrung him out like a wet towel. Instead, he finds the 135 pound Waldo in the crowd. Smart, tough man.
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