I'm Glad Bills Fired John Allaire, strength and conditioning coach

[Thurman#1]

"I'm going to give you a few surprising stats. 1- Do you know that the person in the NFL with the most Super bowl rings, is not a player and did not even play college football? 2- Do you know that only one man in history has coached world championship teams in two sports and in fact has coached nine world championship teams? 3- Did you know that only four strength and conditioning coaches have coached nearly half of the teams that have played in the Super Bowl in the last 19 years? "

 

This is the first paragraph in a great article about the importance of S&C coaches.

 

http://www.strengthcoach.com/public/1263.cfm

 

A great read for those who doubt the importance of strength coaches.

 

I predicted the firing of Allaire, and I think it's a great move, though basically an obvious one.

[Thurman#1]

sure can:

 

- aerobics craze

- sneaker manufacturers promoting "cross training" so people could train more often and buy more sneakers

- gyms making people feel like they were falling behind if they weren't working out nearly every day so they could sell memberships, with the even more absurd notion you could "burn" off excessive eating at the gym

- body builders sticking their face on protein shakes, supplements, exercise equipment and other products as if thats how they got big. when in reality they are genetic freaks with a one in a hundred thousand chance of looking that way ... i know plenty of people who work as much as body builders that will never look like a body builder.

 

 

 

Those are great examples of people working a lot. There's no proof on any of them though that overtraining occurred. Overtraining basically is proved by injuries increasing or the benefits of training being greatly reduced. You have not shown either of these here.

[Thurman#1]

There is absolutely NOTHING you can do in a gym that prevents you from breaking your arm or breaking your leg. I didn't see what caused Poz's break but there isn't a training technique or philosophy that would've prevented Wood's injury.

 

A tremendous amount of today's sports injuries are to the connective tissues. I think it's becoming obvious that the human frame can only accommodate a certain amount of musculature. Overdevelop and you're just going to rip up the squishy stuff that holds you together.

 

Bodybuilders don't fit in this equation because other than lifting the weights, they don't do any of the athletic moves that a modern NFL player does.

 

 

"There is absolutely NOTHING you can do in a gym that prevents you from breaking your arm or breaking your leg," you say? I'm sorry, but that is just not true. Not even close to being true.

 

Collision energy is taken up in many ways by the body, and the first way is by the muscles. Muscles absolutely can prevent some breaks by being stronger. Also, long-term weight training actually makes your bones stronger, not to mention tendons, cartilage, and ligaments. They don't develop as quickly as muscles, but they do indeed develop.

 

Not to mention the fact that if you are a bit stronger or faster, you might be in a different, more advantageous position when the collision comes. Same with flexibility, it helps prevent injuries.

[Thurman#1]

They are not overtraining. I am telling you there is no way a head coach that was as player friendly as Jaroun and ran one of the easiest camps and off-season programs any where would allow his S&C coach to overtrain anyone. Dick's strategy was to go easy on his players to keep them healthy. If it is anything, it is the exact opposite. Please stop with this nonsense.

 

Are there different training techniques that can help with injury prevenetion? Of course, but if you think JT Allaire was not up on the latest you are kiddng yourself. If anything, with a coach as weak as Jaroun, he was not able to get the suport to implement and get compliance with the programs he wanted to install.

 

 

 

Being up on the latest info doesn't necessarily make you good at your job.

[truth on hold]

First, I agree that there's a lot of overtraining going on out there. But you're overstating your case in several areas.

 

I personally know plenty of older marathoners and none of them are having any problem getting around. In fact, they are a lot healthier and sprier than a huge majority of people their age. Look at the case of Johnny Kelley of Boston marathon fame. And there are thousands if not millions of others. I'm sure there are also many who have joint problems, but a lot of that is based on stride problems and training unintelligently.

 

As for your earlier example of a guy who was in a car wreck being told to rest, well, yeah, that works for the ordinary guy. But not so much for the guy who has car wrecks every week, and whose effectiveness in his career is largely based on his raw physical strength and physical gifts. Those weekly car wrecks are made a lot easier to handle if the muscles surrounding and supporting the joints are extremely strong and able to handle the violent impacts.

 

Yeah, rest is extremely important. No, giving up all weight training during the season isn't the way to go.

ive seen dozens of studies about the long term injurious effects of distance running. if you want me to do a google search and post some for you i will. this addresses your subsequent challenge about providing supporting data too.

 

as for a guy in multiple car wrecks every week needing even less rest and recovery than a guy thats only in one infrequently, im sorry but that makes absolutely no sense. more wrecks = more rest and recovery time. i agree in the offseason a sensible muscle building program should be followed, but in actuality most of it will be muscle recovery anyway, since the effect of the season is to decrease muscle mass.

[Thurman#1]

I brought this up recently in another thread on the same inane subject about Allaire, an award winning protege of Rusty Jones. One MUST look at the rehab and injury prevention techniques employed by the training staff. That is THEIR main responsibility, not the S&C staff. I'm with you 100% on this issue. I suggested in that previous thread that one might want to research the different responsbilities of the training and S&C staffs. Never heard back if anyone did. And I refuse to do the homework for them. But until peopla actually DO understand the different responsibilities, then everyone that pins it on Allaire and his staff just doesn't care to know WTF they're talking about.

 

GO BILLS!!!

 

 

 

That was me you wrote to and I did write back about it. Guess you didn't bother to read it.

 

The actual fact is that their responsibilities often overlap for injured guys. But Bud Carpenter has been around since 1967, been here through extremely healthy years and extremely unhealthy years. Whereas Allaire has only been here during extremely unhealthy years, which correlation ought to make any thinking person start to wonder about him.

 

No surprise Allaire is gone. I predicted it in the middle of the year. Dollars to donuts he doesn't get rehired here.

[Thurman#1]

ive seen dozens of studies about the long term injurious effects of distance running. if you want me to do a google search and post some for you i will. this addresses your subsequent challenge about providing supporting data too.

 

 

 

OK, lets's see 'em. I will look forward to all the ones you can find showing "most marathoners end up old biologically old well before their time and many barely able to walk," which is what you said, and what I disagree with.

 

 

as for a guy in multiple car wrecks every week needing even less rest and recovery than a guy thats only in one infrequently, im sorry but that makes absolutely no sense. more wrecks = more rest and recovery time. i agree in the offseason a sensible muscle building program should be followed, but in actuality most of it will be muscle recovery anyway, since the effect of the season is to decrease muscle mass.

 

 

Well, if you're not changing your mind then we'll have to agree to disagree. I am somewhat comforted by the fact that not one single NFL S&C coach agrees with you on this.

[truth on hold]

OK, lets's see 'em. I will look forward to all the ones you can find showing "most marathoners end up old biologically old well before their time and many barely able to walk," which is what you said, and what I disagree with.

 

 

 

 

 

Well, if you're not changing your mind then we'll have to agree to disagree. I am somewhat comforted by the fact that not one single NFL S&C coach agrees with you on this.

perhaps i over stated my case, this is an internet forum, but i stand by my contention that that type of training is dangerous for most people. here's some studies for you to look up:

 

H.J. Wu "Effects of 24 Ultra-Marathon on Biochemical and Hematological Parameters"

 

M.J Warhol "Skeletal Muscle Injury and Repair in Marathan Runners After Competition"

 

J.A. Neviackas "Renal Function Anormalities Induced by Marathan Running"

 

M.K. Fagerhol "Increase in Plasma CalProtection During Long-Distance Running"

 

As for taking comfort that NFL S&C don't agree with me on this, I couldn't disagree more. These people are herd followers that simply promote the party lines of over training that has been jammed down our throats for years. They also have an economic interest in making their jobs as valuable as possible by increasing the time they spend with players. In that sense they're no different than Nike having an incentive to get you to train to the max to buy more sneakers. What are they going to say?: "basically what your players need during the season in most cases, is no training whatsoever. Just have them rest as much as possible so they can recover from the extreme demands on the body of football. OK, can I have my $10 now?"

 

taking comfort in the consensus of NFL S&C coaches is analogous to taking comfort 3 years ago in wall street brokers telling everyone they should buy subprime mortgage securities.

[Thurman#1]

I could be wrong here, but I could've sworn that our injury bug actually started in Rusty's last season or two. Can anyone confirm this?

 

 

The only info I can find has three Bills on the IR list for 2004, Rusty's last year here:

 

54 Jon Dorenbos, C 6-0 250 7/21/80 2 Texas El Paso

84 Mark Campbell, TE 6- 6 255 12/6/75 6 Michigan

91 Constantin Ritzman, DE 6-3 254 12/20/79 R Tennessee

 

In 2003 - Rusty's second-last year here - so far, I have only been able to find that as of 12/17, we had 5 guys on IR:

 

S Izell Reese - Injured Reserve List 12/17

OT Jonas Jennings - Injured Reserve List 12/3

WR Sam Aiken - Injured Reserve List 11/26

DT Ron Edwards - Injured Reserve List 11/12

OT Gary Byrd - Injured Reserve 8/25

 

 

 

Can anyone find anything different?

 

 

Compare that to this year, when we set an all-time Bills record, smashing the old record of 17 (set in 2007, another year when John Allaire was the S&C coach) by putting 21 guys on IR.

 

Check this out: http://espn.go.com/blog/afceast/post/_/id/...azingly-hits-20

 

It's Tim Graham's article titled "Bills bloated IR list amazingly hits 20."

 

And this: http://espn.go.com/blog/afceast/post/_/id/...injured-reserve

 

It's Tim's follow-up, titled "Make That 21 Bills on Injured Reserve."

 

Here's a quotation from the article:

 

"A lot of the things that happened to this team this year injury-wise is unbelievable," new general manager Buddy Nix said Thursday. The Bills added two more players to the IR since. "And that's a major concern, and I think something you've got to address and see if it's something that we're doing or not doing or whether it's just bad luck. But I think we've had it two or three years in a row. That keeps you from getting better."

 

Says it all. "But I think we've had it two or three years in a row. Keeps you from getting better." Don't expect a re-hire of Allaire.

[Thurman#1]

perhaps i over stated my case, this is an internet forum, but i stand by my contention that that type of training is dangerous for most people. here's some studies for you to look up:

 

H.J. Wu "Effects of 24 Ultra-Marathon on Biochemical and Hematological Parameters"

 

M.J Warhol "Skeletal Muscle Injury and Repair in Marathan Runners After Competition"

 

J.A. Neviackas "Renal Function Anormalities Induced by Marathan Running"

 

M.K. Fagerhol "Increase in Plasma CalProtection During Long-Distance Running"

 

As for taking comfort that NFL S&C don't agree with me on this, I couldn't disagree more. These people are herd followers that simply promote the party lines of over training that has been jammed down our throats for years. They also have an economic interest in making their jobs as valuable as possible by increasing the time they spend with players. In that sense they're no different than Nike having an incentive to get you to train to the max to buy more sneakers. What are they going to say?: "basically what your players need during the season in most cases, is no training whatsoever. Just have them rest as much as possible so they can recover from the extreme demands on the body of football. OK, can I have my $10 now?"

 

taking comfort in the consensus of NFL S&C coaches is analogous to taking comfort 3 years ago in wall street brokers telling everyone they should buy subprime mortgage securities.

 

 

Wall street brokers get paid to sell stocks. NFL S&C coaches get paid to keep players healthy and strong, and for nothing else. I suppose there's a vague possibility that you are way way out on the cutting edge on this, but unless you're actually doing research yourself, I think it's more like you're a guy with an opinion, and I'll go with the experts instead.

 

And yeah, you wildly over-stated your case about marathon runners. And none of your studies there even address long-term musculo-skeletal effects of a lifetime of marathoning, which is what we were talking about. They were all basically looking at changes to blood and muscle before and after one marathon. Only one even looked at what happened one week out, and it basically found that everything had returned to normal. But once you admitted you overstated yourself, then we can be on the same page again. Yeah, it's tough on the joints, but many long-term marathoners stay very healthy indeed for a long life. My mom ran her last marathon at age 62, and now at 84 she's still skiing and exercising and putting virtually every other 84 year-old I've ever met to shame with her levels of flexibility, energy and overall health. And her joints are in great shape.

 

Oh, and an ultra-marathon isn't the same as a marathon. One of your studies is about 24 hour ultramarathons.

[truth on hold]

Wall street brokers get paid to sell stocks. NFL S&C coaches get paid to keep players healthy and strong, and for nothing else. I suppose there's a vague possibility that you are way way out on the cutting edge on this, but unless you're actually doing research yourself, I think it's more like you're a guy with an opinion, and I'll go with the experts instead.

 

And yeah, you wildly over-stated your case about marathon runners. And none of your studies there even address long-term musculo-skeletal effects of a lifetime of marathoning, which is what we were talking about. They were all basically looking at changes to blood and muscle before and after one marathon. Only one even looked at what happened one week out, and it basically found that everything had returned to normal. But once you admitted you overstated yourself, then we can be on the same page again. Yeah, it's tough on the joints, but many long-term marathoners stay very healthy indeed for a long life. My mom ran her last marathon at age 62, and now at 84 she's still skiing and exercising and putting virtually every other 84 year-old I've ever met to shame with her levels of flexibility, energy and overall health. And her joints are in great shape.

 

Oh, and an ultra-marathon isn't the same as a marathon. One of your studies is about 24 hour ultramarathons.

S&C coaches don't get paid at all if they don't get hired in the 1st place.

 

I got you started with some research pieces discussing the negative impact of marathon training from various health perspectives. If you choose to ignore them, that speaks volumes.

 

As for your mother, I don't know anything about her other than she's one data point. And as I've stated previously genetics plays a huge role in this. At the end of the day all we can seek to achieve is optimal health based on our genetic make up.

 

I do appreciate your findings on Bills injuries under the recently departed regime however ... something was seriously wrong with their approach.

[benderbender]

This season was a disgrace. I attribute all of this to Allaire.

[Thurman#1]

This season was a disgrace. I attribute all of this to Allaire.

 

 

 

Heh heh heh. Pretty funny. Not all of it, obviously, but surely his share.

[Thurman#1]

S&C coaches don't get paid at all if they don't get hired in the 1st place.

 

That's very true. It has nothing to do with what we were discussing, but it's very true. Once they get hired, though, they are judged by how healthy they keep their players and how strong the players are. Some are much more successful than others, Rusty Jones for one. But all of them keep up with the latest research, and if you think that they wouldn't do anything the research showed would help keep their players strong and healthy, well, I don't know what to say. Even if they found that during the season doing nothing was the best thing for them, they would still keep their jobs for off-season prep. There is no reason for any S&C coach not to do his absolute best to keep his players strong and healthy.

 

I got you started with some research pieces discussing the negative impact of marathon training from various health perspectives. If you choose to ignore them, that speaks volumes.

 

I didn't ignore them. I went and looked at the conclusions of each one individually. Each of them talked about short-term impact of marathons, often the day before and the day after. Not one indicated any long-term problems whatsoever caused by marathons. Not one.

 

As for your mother, I don't know anything about her other than she's one data point. And as I've stated previously genetics plays a huge role in this. At the end of the day all we can seek to achieve is optimal health based on our genetic make up.

 

 

Yeah, genetics play a big role, as do workouts. My mother isn't the only data point I see, as I have a bunch of serious older runners around me and they're all healthy as horses.

 

Again, the studies you pointed out only talked about changes from before to after a marathon. There was nothing whatsoever about long-term impact, and you're the one who said "i wish you the best of luck in still being able to walk as you age. most marathoners end up old biologically old well before their time and many barely able to walk."

 

Whatever your point about marathoners (and I'm not sure just what it is), make it and find studies that support exactly whatever you want to say. Otherwise you're just pumping hot air.

 

You originally said this:

 

ive seen dozens of studies about the long term injurious effects of distance running. if you want me to do a google search and post some for you i will. this addresses your subsequent challenge about providing supporting data too.

 

Yet the four studies you actually provided were about:

 

1) H.J. Wu "Effects of 24 Ultra-Marathon on Biochemical and Hematological Parameters" - This looked at levels of a few blood contents two days and nine days after a 24 Hour Ultra-Marathon. There is nothing "long term" about that.

 

2) M.J Warhol "Skeletal Muscle Injury and Repair in Marathan Runners After Competition" - This looked at how muscles are injured and repair themselves in marathon runners. It showed that veteran marathon runners gastrocnemius muscles had signs of repeated fiber injuries and repairs. The longest term biopsy was 12 weeks after a marathon. Nothing there either.

 

3) J.A. Neviackas "Renal Function Anormalities Induced by Marathan Running" - This looked at samples from before, the day after and the week after a marathon. It found that "renal abnormalities" occurred, depending on ambient temperature, during marathons but were pretty much back to normal one week later. Nothing long-term about that.

 

4) M.K. Fagerhol "Increase in Plasma CalProtection During Long-Distance Running" - In this one, blood samples were taken before and after a bunch of different distance races and two other physically gruelling events. They found that blood chemicals showed that muscle injury had occurred. Where is the long-term in that?

 

It looks like you googled a few words and just copied the first few studies you found regardless of whether they had anything to do with your point or not. These studies were not about long-term effects of marathoning.

 

 

I do appreciate your findings on Bills injuries under the recently departed regime however ... something was seriously wrong with their approach.

 

 

I couldn't agree more.

[truth on hold]

the common theme of all those articles is the negative effect of the marathon on the individuals body, and how long it took to recover. if one were to train again during the recovery period, they'd be doing serious harm to their bodies ... JUST LIKE a football player that trains BETWEEN games.

 

as for my individual experience i'll share one with you. i have a sibling of comparable age, size and same sex. historically he was a better athlete than i am. however he bought into the whole cardio-aerobic training hype years ago and has religiously been doing several routines on a weekly basis. i, on the other hand, jogged for maybe a year or two and then stopped about 10 years ago because my intuition told me this was hurting, not only my joints but also my endurance, the very thing it was supposed to help most. my only training activity has been weights, mostly nautilus machines. (as it turns out too much, but less excessive than most fitness types.)

 

anyway years later im visibly more muscled than he is, stronger (he looks frail) and, what would surprise most people, my endurance is far greater. im also far less susceptible to illness. we went hiking recently and he needed to stop all the time ... me almost never. that supports my point that cardio systems support muscles, and rise and fall with muscle density. working on cardio has it ass backwards, it actually shrinks muscles and makes a weaker cardio system!!! also, after muscles are worked they need a much longer recovery period than nearly everyone realizes.

 

anyway, what do you think the most probable cause(s) of the bills excessive injuries has been?

[thewildrabbit]

You guys are all just talking muscles and collisions, there is more to it then that.

 

There is overall diet and exercise, Bills players under Rusty Jones could go to Miami in the summer heat, and out perform the Dolphins. Tell me how many Bills O linemen in today's game look like bloated warthogs and came to camp completely out of shape and stayed that way.

 

I recall Jauron cut Langston Walker because he couldn't get to the line fast enough for the no huddle, Bills O linemen running the K gun had no problems because they were in the proper shape.

Rusty Jones used to allow a certain amount of body fat on each player depending on what position they played.

 

Pregame warm ups also can help keep players from injuries, players need to loosen up properly before a game.

 

Proper coaching technique also helps, being trained on how to perform a tackle and properly execute play for your position can help eliminate injuries.

 

Then there is equipment, improper shoes on certain fields can cause problems. The mouth guards the Patriots use are state of the art and the result is less concussions.

 

When your team is being led by a moron it permeates throughout the team, Jauron was a moron in so many areas.

[strive_for_five_guy]

the common theme of all those articles is the negative effect of the marathon on the individuals body, and how long it took to recover. if one were to train again during the recovery period, they'd be doing serious harm to their bodies ... JUST LIKE a football player that trains BETWEEN games.

 

as for my individual experience i'll share one with you. i have a sibling of comparable age, size and same sex. historically he was a better athlete than i am. however he bought into the whole cardio-aerobic training hype years ago and has religiously been doing several routines on a weekly basis. i, on the other hand, jogged for maybe a year or two and then stopped about 10 years ago because my intuition told me this was hurting, not only my joints but also my endurance, the very thing it was supposed to help most. my only training activity has been weights, mostly nautilus machines. (as it turns out too much, but less excessive than most fitness types.)

 

anyway years later im visibly more muscled than he is, stronger (he looks frail) and, what would surprise most people, my endurance is far greater. im also far less susceptible to illness. we went hiking recently and he needed to stop all the time ... me almost never. that supports my point that cardio systems support muscles, and rise and fall with muscle density. working on cardio has it ass backwards, it actually shrinks muscles and makes a weaker cardio system!!! also, after muscles are worked they need a much longer recovery period than nearly everyone realizes.

 

anyway, what do you think the most probable cause(s) of the bills excessive injuries has been?

 

1. Marathoning is COMPLETELY different than playing football. Stop with the marathoning studies as support for the Bills excessive injuries. Maybe the Bills are overtraining in other ways, but I guarantee you they are NOT running marathons!

2. As for your individual experience, you are leaving out several factors. First, THAT is just one example and too little to draw conclusions from. What has your diet been in relation to your brother? I mean, if you're brother is eating Big Macs and partying it up while you are eating responsibly to support your workouts, that is going to make a huge different in the results you see. What do you and you brother do for a living? We spend huge amounts of our lives working and I believe this plays a role in how we age. Also, just b/c you are comparable ages and sizes, does not mean your genetic makeups are the same. If you're trying to make him off as your identical twin, you can't.

 

Like I said, maybe you are right that the Bills are overtraining OFF THE FIELD, but maybe it's just a fact of them overtrying ON THE FIELD, maybe being a very young and inexperienced team. I just think you're trying to make parallels with evidence that doesn't really support your theory.

[Nevergiveup]

Being up on the latest info doesn't necessarily make you good at your job.

 

 

Brilliant. Why don't you add that posting a comment chat site doesn't make you right. I am surprised that one of the teams looking for a strength and conditioning coach has not picked you up yet.

 

Check out this injury stats. Most games lost to injury. Bears, Bills, Colts. Either Rusty or from his tree. How did that happen? If you are in the profession, it is emabarrassing that you would indict one of your own without knowing anything about the guy.

 

Hey Thurman. How is it that you partied like a rock star and had one of the worst work ethics of any player yet stayed relatively injury free?

[MRM33064]

I don't know squat about this topic, but I'm wondering if the raw volume of plays run has any relevance, at least insofar as expected defensive injuries go?

 

If the chance of a defensive player being injured would be modeled, wouldn't it be modeled as something like a function of X (player's individual "shape" - what is being debated in this thread), Y (some random propensity to be subject to an injury on any play), and Z (number of plays a player plays).

 

In other words, it's not just "X" .... but might the fact that the Bills defense has a high amount of plays run against them (because, in part, our offense is so terrible) in and of itself cause an above-average expectation of injury? That also feeds on itself, because once a starter is injured the defense itself may not be as good, which in turn might cause more plays to be run against that defense.

 

I don't know, obviously fitness and conditioning at the individual player level is key and the MOST relevant factor, but maybe teams that have better talent (offensive and defensive) might be less likely to have defensive injuries simply by virtue of getting defensive starters off the field more? "Better" defensive backups would also be helpful, inasmuch as the defensive quality wouldn't drop as much if a starter is injured.

 

Just speculating a little.

[Alaska Darin]

"There is absolutely NOTHING you can do in a gym that prevents you from breaking your arm or breaking your leg," you say? I'm sorry, but that is just not true. Not even close to being true.

 

Collision energy is taken up in many ways by the body, and the first way is by the muscles. Muscles absolutely can prevent some breaks by being stronger. Also, long-term weight training actually makes your bones stronger, not to mention tendons, cartilage, and ligaments. They don't develop as quickly as muscles, but they do indeed develop.

 

Not to mention the fact that if you are a bit stronger or faster, you might be in a different, more advantageous position when the collision comes. Same with flexibility, it helps prevent injuries.

I'm not disagreeing with any of that because it's true - but injuries like Poz's aren't the result of not working out properly - they're bad luck. I'm pretty sure that's his point.