transitioning from a 4-3 defense to a 3-4

[timbuk3]

The consensus on this board seems to be that running the 3-4 would be greatly preferable to the 4-3, but won't doing so require a tremendous amount of roster gutting and contract eating (particularly among the DE's)? Given the major problems we already have at QB and OL, would it be wise to add so many more problems to the list? Couldn't we just run a non-Tampa 2 version of the 4-3 instead and go after reasonably sized LB's?

 

I'm more of the football philosophy that good coaches make the playbook fit the personnel. If these coaches insist on having to do it the other way around in order to succeed, then it's only a short matter of time before the league figures your system out. There are still plenty of NFL teams that run the 4-3 with success, and my contention is that the 2010 Buffalo Bills can still aspire to be a playoff team if the front office sticks with retooling our current 4-3 instead of a complete overhaul for a 3-4.

 

Having said that, let's take a look at the current DL's and LB's on the roster. There are 24 in total (7 DE, 7 DT, 10 LB), counting guys from the roster, practice squad, and IR:

 

The * denotes players I believe the Bills have cap space tied to that is of some significant size.

The ^ denotes players I believe the Bills have made a development commitment to and should not necessarily be given up on (without some sort of trade, at least).

 

DE Aaron Schobel - *

DE Chris Kelsay - *

DE Ryan Denney

DE Aaron Maybin - *^

DE Chris Ellis - ^

DE Jermaine McGhee

DE Marcus Smith

DT Marcus Stroud - *

DT Kyle Williams - ^

DT Spencer Johnson - *

DT John McCargo - ^

DT Corey Mace

DT Lonnie Harvey

DT Rashaad Duncan

LB Kawika Mitchell - *

LB Paul Posluszny - ^

LB Nic Harris - ^

LB Keith Ellison

LB Chris Draft

LB Marcus Buggs

LB Ashlee Palmer

LB Jon Corto

LB Josh Stamer

LB Ryan Manalac

 

So that's a total of 11 players from the front 7 that must be seriously considered before a complete transition to a 3-4. Can Stroud, Williams, Johnson, and McCargo play as 3-4 DE's? None seem to have the size to play NT (and McCargo may not have the ability/desire to play anywhere in the NFL). Can Schobel, Kelsay, Maybin, Ellis, and Harris play as 3-4 OLB's? Can Mitchell and Posluszny play as 3-4 ILB's?

 

These are questions that I'd like the 3-4 proponents to answer.

 

Also, does anyone have the contract details on these guys? The poster known as "clumping platelets" hasn't updated his salary cap page in almost a year.

 

I'd go for about anything as long as we ditch that Tampa-2 crap. Get some stud linebackers in and the DL will look a lot better.

[AxelRipper]

we need a scheme like in Madden... able to switch between the 3-4, 4-3, dime, and nickel at will

[earthtobrint]

I might agree with your philosophy of making the playbook fit the team's personnel if said team has elite personnel. We obviously do not have such a team. The only players currently on the defensive front seven worth building around (should still be here three years from now) are Kyle Williams, Paul Posluszny, Aaron Schobel, and maybe Aaron Maybin. To go through your list of players that the Bills have made financial or developmental commitment:

 

DE Chris Kelsay - * - Does not fit in the 3-4 defense. I believe his undeserved large cap hit ends after next season.

DE Aaron Maybin - *^ - Fits better as a 3-4 OLB than 4-3 DE.

DE Chris Ellis - ^ - Does not fit in a Buffalo Bills uniform. He has rarely been able to crack the lineup. It is nearly safe to call this draft pick a bust.

DT Marcus Stroud - * - He is 31 and his play has been on a sharp decline, yet was recently given a four year extension. He is about the same size as Richard Seymour. He should fit as a DE in a 3-4.

DT Kyle Williams - ^ - He is more of a penetrator than a gap/blocker eater, but he could probably transition to a DE in a 3-4.

DT Spencer Johnson - * - DE in a 3-4

DT John McCargo - ^ - He was given a second chance with a new DL coach, but didn't take advantage. I don't see him being kept much longer.

LB Kawika Mitchell - * - ILB in a 3-4

LB Paul Posluszny - ^ - ILB in a 3-4

LB Nic Harris - ^ - He is probably too small to play OLB in a 3-4. I haven't seen enough of him yet to consider him a valuable building block to a defense or not.

 

I left Schobel for the end because his situation seems more complicated. I believe he could transition to an OLB in a 3-4 if he was motivated to do so. Despite another productive season, he revealed that he is considering retirement, citing a decline in athletic ability. Being with a team with one winning season in the past ten years and no playoff appearances has a lot to do with it, too, I'm sure. Forcing him into a position that requires even more athleticism while learning an entirely new scheme, may push him more towards retirement or a trade request. Schobel gets a lot of criticism for being "over the hill" and for his large contract, but he has a been our most productive defensive player this decade, continues to be our best defensive linemen, and should have a few more years in him.

 

It's true that a transition to the 3-4 would require massive roster turnover, but with a new regime taking over when their predecessor has failed so miserably, a house cleaning is likely to happen no matter what. If such a change were made, the main deficiency the current roster has would be the lack of a true NT. There is no one on the current roster that would fit that role. Nix would need to acquire two huge space-eaters to rotate at NT, at least one of which coming from the draft. These types of players are rarely found in free agency (not enough Tom Donahoe's in the league) unless they are 35 years old. NT would move up in draft priority shortly behind OT and QB.

 

To answer OP's other question, you can see each players contract details on their rotoworld profile.

[Bufcomments]

to slightly answer your question, Schobel and Kelsey have dropped back in coverage, a few years ago when LeBeau was an assistant, Buffalo ran a 4-3 (true) but it was a blitz zone 43, with DEs dropping in coverage. Buffalo then had the 2nd ranked defense, 8th against the run, 2nd against the pass and 5th in points allowed (17.4) I know the defense was different, Buffalo was much more talented...but the question was asked...the other question about NT, Jay Ratliff is 6'4" and listed at 303 pounds. which when you break it down means he would have less leverage than Williams.

 

On obvious passing downs we wouldn't run a 3-4..3-4 is run on first and maybe 2nd downs, we would be in a nickel or dime.

 

w/ current roster

schobel-Mitchell-Poz-Kelsey/Maybin

Johnson williams Stroud

this is on first down and more obvious running situations

 

then move Stroud or Johnson inside, have Maybin/Kelsey and Schobel line up at DE. In the Nickel Harris and Poz and in the dime Poz or Harris.

I like your post.

 

Williams on the nose would remind me of Jeff Wright. Schobel and Stroud on the ends.

 

If they did this they would have to draft McClain as ILB along with Mitchell. You could put Poz on the strong side with whoever wins the weakside( , Ellison or Harris?). Bring in Maybin on pass downs, put him anywhere and say sic em dog lol.

 

They can make the switch, it is not impossible but very unlikely.

[silvermike]

Step 1: Acquire really good defense tackles

Step 2: Acquire really good defensive ends

Step 3: Use them to rush the passer

Step 4: Use them to stop the run

Step 5: Decide how many linebackers you want behind them.

 

It's not the scheme, it's the talent.

[bananathumb]

I like your post.

 

Williams on the nose would remind me of Jeff Wright. Schobel and Stroud on the ends.

 

If they did this they would have to draft McClain as ILB along with Mitchell. You could put Poz on the strong side with whoever wins the weakside( , Ellison or Harris?). Bring in Maybin on pass downs, put him anywhere and say sic em dog lol.

 

They can make the switch, it is not impossible but very unlikely.

 

 

Don't think it would be that difficult, especially if we drafted McClain and put him inside with Poz. Mitchell and Maybin outside. You would need a NT either in the draft or FA, because Williams would be a better DE than NT in the 3-4.

 

Regardless, it would beat a Tampa 2. Our current strength is our secondary. Have them man-up more instead of that stupid zone. Rivera would bring his San Diego 3-4 scheme for sure.

[BillsfaninFl]

So that's a total of 11 players from the front 7 that must be seriously considered before a complete transition to a 3-4. Can Stroud, Williams, Johnson, and McCargo play as 3-4 DE's? None seem to have the size to play NT (and McCargo may not have the ability/desire to play anywhere in the NFL). Can Schobel, Kelsay, Maybin, Ellis, and Harris play as 3-4 OLB's? Can Mitchell and Posluszny play as 3-4 ILB's?

 

These are questions that I'd like the 3-4 proponents to answer.

 

My response: Certainly, it is wise to use a system that maximizes the effectiveness of the players you have. Unfortunately, the Bills have not been very good at this strategy, but that's not the point. IMO, the reasons why the Bills should switch to a 3-4 now are...

 

1. A 3-4 defensive scheme is better for defending against our opponents in the AFC East, who like to run up the middle and throw screen passes to the outside. A big nose tackle who can clog holes and tie up two guys is required. The four linebackers allow a wider containment zone near the line of scrimage.

 

2. Regarding using the players we have in a 3-4, keep in mind that a new coaching staff will install a new system anyway. So forget continuity. Most of our defensive front seven players are near retirement (Schobel, Stroud) or not effective in either scheme (McCargo, Kelsay, Denney, Ellison, etc.) I believe Mitchell and Pozluszny would be fine in a 3-4.

[Stussy109]

our front 7 would look like this

 

RDE Kelsay

NT K Williams

LDE Stroud

OLB Maybin

MLB Mitchell

MLB Draft

OLB Poz

 

we can always draft another guy

[Brandon]

Our DL needs to be completely replaced anyways no matter which scheme. Might as well restock for the better scheme, 3 -4.

 

I agree. All this talk about the existing roster, but the guys they currently have are old and aren't playing well at all as a unit, anyway. Four of their starters in the defensive front seven are on the wrong side of 30, plus their top reserve DE is as well. They also need to replace Keith Ellison. They're going to have to completely rebuild that group over the next two or three years, anyway, so if they want to change scheme, now would seem to be the best time to do it.

 

I'd prefer that they go ahead and make the switch. Yes, its hard to find a NT, but its also extremely difficult to find good 4-3 DEs these days and I think that at the very least, its easier to find OLBs who can rush the passer out of a 3-4 and that alone probably makes it a superior scheme.

[todd]

If we transition from a 4-3 to a 3-4, we should expect a total overhaul of our defensive personnel. We're quite a bit further away from running a 3-4 than we are a 4-3. Frankly, I'm tired of waiting to win, and finding a 3-4 nose tackle will take a long, long time, not to mention building depth at the positions.