Nanker Posted December 22, 2009 Share Posted December 22, 2009 "The state of Michigan is asking the US Supreme Court to intervene to prevent Asian carp from further infesting a historic canal that connects the Mississippi River basin to the Great Lakes." Exiled, it's not been settled yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExiledInIllinois Posted December 22, 2009 Share Posted December 22, 2009 I know. I joked with my boss 6 months ago... Saying: "You know what the last line of defense is? US! We can always shut down." My unofficial take: Anyway... Michigan has been always suing IL... Going back to about 1969 and later in 1997 or so... They (MI) originally claim that IL is diverting too much water from the lakes at our three locks (CHI Harbor, Calumet, and Lockport, IL). In, 1969 the US Supreme Court set the rate at 3600 cubic feet per second... In the late 1990's, MI sued again saying that IL is diverting more than that amount. IL defense was: "We are still diverting 3600 cfs... We are using 1960s technology to determine the amount." Anyway... It is really about about that and how much water we divert from the lakes to the MS... MI is using a fish as smokescreen IMO. Also... You don't think fish can swim around a leaky lock?... I see it happen all the time... But they don't care. Closing the locks will do NOTHING except stop water from being diverted... No water, no Illinois Waterway... This water supplies the whole Illinois Waterway. A 60 day closure at this one lock alone will cost the national economy 18+ million dollars... Now let that snowball down the Illinois (where tonnage going through each lock goes up greatly) because there is no water. Does anyone know how many more millions upon millions of trucks and trains need to be put on the road and rail? What a cluster-eff this would become. Personally I am not worried either way... I have almost 20 years in and there are other parts of the mission. I feel sorry for the indusrty, not just commerical... There is a whole recreational industry that depends on this river. They say that the Great Lakes fishery is worth 7 billion a year... And that is for the whole Great Lakes and a big "what if" about a fish and how it will react to the waters of the Great Lakes. I would say roughly the whole industrial and recreational navigation complex with other side effects is well beyond that 7 billion (which I think is exaggerated). Well... Hate to rant... Did I give an ear full? One boondoggle after another... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExiledInIllinois Posted December 22, 2009 Share Posted December 22, 2009 Anbody... HELP me out here: Here is the long term question: How can you lock a boat WITHOUT letting fish through? BUT... Now for the kicker... It has to be on the current size of modern day shipping. Easy if you are dealing with small pleasure boats and what not... You can do inclined plane or other mechanical methods that have been around for a very long time. How do you do it on fleet lengths that can be up to 1,000' long by 107' wide and 9 feet deep with cargo in the 10's of thousands of tons... A 200'x35' barge will carry about 1600 tons of commodity. Now... Even if one can achieve this feat... Can it be assured that ballasts will be free from envasive species? There are lift locks, boat lifts, inclined planes what not... Quite marvels of modern day engineering. What about the idea of a "dry" caisson lock? Even in water this was thought to be an impossible task from a scale/practicality angle. ?? Am I rambling? Oh... If anybody doesn't know some of the terms... Look it up on Google. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magox Posted December 22, 2009 Share Posted December 22, 2009 PPP, a home for masochists Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExiledInIllinois Posted December 22, 2009 Share Posted December 22, 2009 PPP, a home for masochists What do you mean... Expand... Me, masochist? Aren't we all from BFLO... BFLO fans... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExiledInIllinois Posted December 22, 2009 Share Posted December 22, 2009 I just read an article about this and what the Attorney General in Michigan is saying. The Great Lakes fishing and tourism is only 7 billion dollars... And that is assuming the fish do total devastation, which IMO I don't think they will do. Closing off the river and canal does way more economic impact than that. I mean, the Chicago area supplies the water for the whole Illinois waterway... Closure would be catastrophic, way more than 7 billion dollars... And that impact would be immediate. This is nothing but a shameless attempt with regard to a grudge that Michigan has with Illinois for diverting water from the lakes... Michigan has always seen itself as the "protector" of the Great Lakes. I could make a number of arguments where Michigan actually may be harming the Lakes with this action. Nothing more than wanting to "permanently separate these waterways from the Great Lakes." The MI Attorney General said: "The suit aims to protect the Michigan economy." At what expense? Far more ecomonic impact on others and the rest of the nation. It is going to be interesting and I am looking forward to what is determined. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExiledInIllinois Posted December 22, 2009 Share Posted December 22, 2009 I found this little tidbit and it speaks volumes of Michigan's intent... Which has been expressed for almost a 100 years by others too: "The truth is, they should have never built that canal," which reversed the flow of the Chicago River and diverts 2.1 billion gallons of water a day from Lake Michigan, US Rep. Candice Miller, R-Mich., said. "If I had my way, I'd shut it off completely." For more than 100 years, people outside of Chicago have criticized the city's boldest engineering marvel: the Chicago Sanitary and Ship Canal and its related branches, which link Lake Michigan to the Mississippi River Basin. The Canal, built in steps between 1892 and 1922, is credited with making Chicago a major economic power. So, it wouldn't be easy to close down. On another note... Wasn't the Great Lakes naturally a sterile environment? Very little fish lived in the lake... Maybe the lake sturgeon... Until humans introduced other species. So what is this 7 billion dollar fishery? Man-made, just like the canals. Anyway... How much water flows over the Falls... A whole lot more leaves the lakes into Lake Ontario that. The reason the canals "work" in Chicago is because the canal bottom elevation is roughly the elevation of the bottom of the Niagara River at the Falls. More food for thought... Enjoy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pine Barrens Mafia Posted December 22, 2009 Share Posted December 22, 2009 This is all so fascinating. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frit0 Bandit0 Posted December 22, 2009 Share Posted December 22, 2009 I found this little tidbit and it speaks volumes of Michigan's intent... Which has been expressed for almost a 100 years by others too: "The truth is, they should have never built that canal," which reversed the flow of the Chicago River and diverts 2.1 billion gallons of water a day from Lake Michigan, US Rep. Candice Miller, R-Mich., said. "If I had my way, I'd shut it off completely." For more than 100 years, people outside of Chicago have criticized the city's boldest engineering marvel: the Chicago Sanitary and Ship Canal and its related branches, which link Lake Michigan to the Mississippi River Basin. The Canal, built in steps between 1892 and 1922, is credited with making Chicago a major economic power. So, it wouldn't be easy to close down. On another note... Wasn't the Great Lakes naturally a sterile environment? Very little fish lived in the lake... Maybe the lake sturgeon... Until humans introduced other species. So what is this 7 billion dollar fishery? Man-made, just like the canals. Anyway... How much water flows over the Falls... A whole lot more leaves the lakes into Lake Ontario that. The reason the canals "work" in Chicago is because the canal bottom elevation is roughly the elevation of the bottom of the Niagara River at the Falls. More food for thought... Enjoy. This is production Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim in Anchorage Posted December 22, 2009 Share Posted December 22, 2009 I found this little tidbit and it speaks volumes of Michigan's intent... Which has been expressed for almost a 100 years by others too: "The truth is, they should have never built that canal," which reversed the flow of the Chicago River and diverts 2.1 billion gallons of water a day from Lake Michigan, US Rep. Candice Miller, R-Mich., said. "If I had my way, I'd shut it off completely." For more than 100 years, people outside of Chicago have criticized the city's boldest engineering marvel: the Chicago Sanitary and Ship Canal and its related branches, which link Lake Michigan to the Mississippi River Basin. The Canal, built in steps between 1892 and 1922, is credited with making Chicago a major economic power. So, it wouldn't be easy to close down. On another note... Wasn't the Great Lakes naturally a sterile environment? Very little fish lived in the lake... Maybe the lake sturgeon... Until humans introduced other species. So what is this 7 billion dollar fishery? Man-made, just like the canals. Anyway... How much water flows over the Falls... A whole lot more leaves the lakes into Lake Ontario that. The reason the canals "work" in Chicago is because the canal bottom elevation is roughly the elevation of the bottom of the Niagara River at the Falls. More food for thought... Enjoy. I would love to see some proof of that figure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExiledInIllinois Posted December 23, 2009 Share Posted December 23, 2009 I would love to see some proof of that figure. I would too. And the number is still a big what if... Nobody knows for sure what the silver carp will really do the lakes?? Quite a boogyman. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExiledInIllinois Posted December 23, 2009 Share Posted December 23, 2009 This is production You can say that again! That is neat. Not quite as busy here in Illinois , but in the summertime we get lock utilization up to about 80% for a 24 hour day. They have to pay a toll there on the Panama... It must bring in a ton of money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExiledInIllinois Posted January 9, 2010 Share Posted January 9, 2010 Here is an interesting article that I had bookmarked back in 2006... YES... 2006: Can't Beat Them, Eat Them! Quick update... I guess the US Supreme Court is reviewing all the facts and will decide (by what I hear) by next Friday if the case is too be dismissed or go to a hearing phase... Whatever that is?? From what I hear... It is the same lawsuit MI has been rehashing since the 1960's and beyond??? Mainly has to do with water diversion... Except this time, they are trying to tie in the fish to their cause. IMO, the immediate, yes IMMEDIATE economic impact to the region and the nation has to be way more the the 7 billion dollar Great Lakes fishery impact (and even that is a big, doomsday scenario number). It is just about shipping and navigation. It would be like going home and closing the drain to your bathtub and stopping up the over-flow hole (that is what the canals around Chicago basically are) and then turning the spigot on. What I see as happening out of all this is (and have been saying for years to deaf ears) more management of the water resources, rather than just indiscriminantly taking as much as needed and flushing the rest. If I was a resident of Chicago and didn't have a water meter... I would probably take the city up on their offer of a seven year freeze on rates and let them install a water meter. Right now if you live in a older home in Chicago, your water is estimated, NOT METERED... Unless you build new or remodel... Then you must get a meter. From what I hear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExiledInIllinois Posted January 22, 2010 Share Posted January 22, 2010 More update on the battle to close off the waterways. CARP ACT H.R.4472 “Let me be clear: Illinois has legitimate concerns, but they do not outweigh the potential loss of a $7.5 billion industry and ecological devastation of the entire Great Lakes region,” Camp said. That is a big 7.5 billion dollar (number seems to be going up) "if". How many years will that take and if it materializes at all. Immediate closure of the river sets back the ecomony for 1.7 billion (that is just commercial tonnage) a year, and that is only at one lock and dam. IMO, 1.7 billion dollar immediate loss outweighs the potential (worst case scenario) 7.5 billion. How they will mitigate the two (carp vs. economy/flooding) is beyond me... But I am game! More to follow... Should be interesting come spring time. Besides commercial craft, 10's of thousands of recreational vessels transit each year... Many from marinas down river that would go out of business... More transit yearly from south (Gulf of Mexico). Hope the get rid of midnight shift! Maybe furlough in the winter so I can go back to being seasonal like when I got hired! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExiledInIllinois Posted January 22, 2010 Share Posted January 22, 2010 Oh... Here is another tidbit form the article above: "Addressing concerns voiced by Illinois officials about the impact of closing Chicago-area locks, Camp’s legislation specifically tasks the Army Corps of Engineers with conducting two separate studies to develop alternative flood control measures and commercial routes." What might that be? Through the SeaWay? That has got to be 1,000's of more miles. I sure hope they close down the SeaWay too, more invasive species have come through there any other way. Remember the hysteria about zebra mussles? You don't hear too much about them now, seems they have found a balance. Also, if Michigan is so worried about water leaving the lakes... Why don't they team up with ONT and dam up at Detroit and then have NYS and ONT stop the water spilling over Niagara Falls. Water leaves over the Falls at about 3.5 billion gallons a day. Chicago (IL) is allowed to divert by Supreme Court ruling (1967) 2.1 billion gallons a day. Only reason the river works the way it does in Chicago is because of the situation at Niagara Falls. The Chicago/Calumet rivers in Illinois are dug deeper than what goes over the Falls at the natural spillway. The Niagara Escarpment is the natural dam with the Falls being the over-flow spillway... Stop it from spilling over and control the flows... Of course I am totally joking... But come on, the lakes are constantly draining anyway... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC Tom Posted January 22, 2010 Share Posted January 22, 2010 I've got nothing to add do this, I just wanted to post so EII didn't feel like he was talking to himself. Even though he pretty much is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExiledInIllinois Posted January 22, 2010 Share Posted January 22, 2010 I've got nothing to add do this, I just wanted to post so EII didn't feel like he was talking to himself. Even though he pretty much is. Believe me, I was going to say the same thing. Just keeping people updated... I have varying opinions of it all... Being my line of work. There will be a carp summit in February... I hoping it is at ground zero at our lock! I drive people at work nuts, especially the newbies that are affraid of losing their job. I am not worried at all... I would actually enjoy being seasonal again now that I am hitting middle age. Not that I am a big enviro-hysteria nut... I do think it is overblown to an extent... Yet, a couple of people along with me have been saying for years that this was coming and we should have a "water plan." I made the Falls comment because basically diversion is handled in the same manner: "Just let it spill away, use as needed as long it falls within the limit set." We are still well under the cap (2.1 billion gallons a day for the Chicago area), even running 24/7/365 at will of the customer biggest vessel or smallest rowboat/canoe. I have been waiting for this change for years. Other people just want the status quo, cover their heads in the sand. I think positive change can come within the gov't. There is a lot to be said about how things were done in the old days and there is a lot to be said about having modern approaches too. I think there can be a happy medium and creative ones! Sorry for the updates... Just trying to keep people informed. This topic is important in so many ways for the Great Lakes states and the nation. I am a little curious to what people's take on it all is? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExiledInIllinois Posted January 23, 2010 Share Posted January 23, 2010 Here is an article from the Journal of Commerce posted a few hours ago: Stop the Asian Carp Hysteria "Most importantly, this legislation would harm the economy and environment without any reassurance that the Asian carp would be stopped. The science simply does not exist to prove that shutting down the locks will prevent the Asian carp from reaching the Great Lakes. The federal government has acknowledged that the locks are not waterproof and could allow small fish and eggs to travel through closed lock gates, and that there are other outlets through which the fish can reach the Great Lakes. Furthermore, the Administration has admitted that the eDNA test indicating carp presence in the Great Lakes only shows where the carp may be; until a live fish is caught, it is impossible to tell if the test accurately captured the presence of a live Asian carp. Finally, the U.S. Geological Survey has documented that Asian carp have existed in Lake Erie for more than 15 years and have not become established, proof that the current hysteria is unwarranted." Personally speaking, I know first hand that the carp problem is bad around Havana, IL... Down river below Peoria... Yet, they don't seem to be a problem more up river on the Illinois... Or up river on the Mississippi above lock 19 or so. I wonder if they really don't like the higher latitude or if there is some other reason why they haven't took off further north?? Could ag runoff and higher nutrient levels play a part?? Also... Could they have entered Lake Erie years ago from the Ohio river through other defunct canals (Muskingum Canal: Roughly Cincy to Cleveland via the Muskingum/Scioto rivers)?? Lake Erie is fast flowing, which they like.. And warmer than the other lakes (which they need in the 70 degree range to spawn). ?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC Tom Posted January 23, 2010 Share Posted January 23, 2010 There will be a carp summit in February... I hoping it is at ground zero at our lock! A carp summit? Sounds fishy to me. They'll probably just flounder around a lot and not accomplish anything. Still, I may attend just for the halibut. I got a million of em... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
/dev/null Posted January 23, 2010 Share Posted January 23, 2010 A carp summit? Sounds fishy to me. They'll probably just flounder around a lot and not accomplish anything. Still, I may attend just for the halibut. I got a million of em... If the other 999,999 are any worse. I don't want to hear them Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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