Trent deserves better...

[PushthePile]

Just to clarify, if I give you every NFL team, injuries or retirement still counts for me. I don't care if it's concussion related or a twisted ankle.

[Guest dog14787]

Deal. See this is how you disagree!

 

It was a pleasure to disagree with you Push and its sure to be profitable for one of us.

[Guest dog14787]

Just to clarify, if I give you every NFL team, injuries or retirement still counts for me. I don't care if it's concussion related or a twisted ankle.

 

That's cool, because it is a big part of TE's problem, staying healthy.

[PushthePile]

That's cool, because that is a big part of TE's problem, staying healthy.

Good deal then. Now that it's done I'll admit that my first fear is St. Louis.

[Guest dog14787]

Good deal then. Now that it's done I'll admit that my first fear is St. Louis.

 

 

Mine is keeping Mary healthy.

[PushthePile]

Mine is keeping Mary healthy.

It's a major issue but I don't think he has much playing time left this year. So your looking at just a pre-season to stay healthy enough.

[Guest dog14787]

It's a major issue but I don't think he has much playing time left this year. So your looking at just a pre-season to stay healthy enough.

 

Still, having to keep Mary healthy and play well enough to win a start through preseason is probably 50/50.

 

So I think we made a fair and enjoyable wager. If I lose, I couldn't lose to a nicer fella and I will still get a laugh out of it.

 

I will be a bit bummed about TE not starting though...

[PushthePile]

Still, having to keep Mary healthy and play well enough to win a start through preseason is probably 50/50.

 

So I think we made a fair and enjoyable wager. If I lose, I couldn't lose to a nicer fella and I will still get a kick out of it.

 

I will be a bit bummed about TE not starting though...

I think it's a fair deal too. As much as I think he's done here, TE will be likely to get a shot somewhere else. I'd be happy to give you a little green if your right. Good luck buddy.

[Guest dog14787]

I think it's a fair deal too. As much as I think he's done here, TE will be likely to get a shot somewhere else. I'd be happy to give you a little green if your right. Good luck buddy.

 

 

You to my friend

[Cynical]

Deal. See this is how you disagree!

 

And I could be the "Disinterested 3rd Party" that would hold the money in escrow until the event took place.

 

 

 

 

 

Trust me.

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

The OL very much matters, however, an above average QB can still succeed behind a bad OL. A pro bowl type of QB will put up the type of numbers that Aaron Rodgers & Big Ben consistently put up (without the benefit of an average OL). Unfortunately, we have neither an above average QB, or even an average QB. For all of you who go out of your way to defend TE, please stop insinuating that anyone who doesn't believe that he's even an average QB, personally has hate for him. It is a simple fact proven over and over: TE just doesn't have what it takes to be a successful starter in the NFL. Come to grips with this reality...

 

 

Measuring a good line vs bad is challenging. I saw someone use sacks. Was it total or per DB? running game was referenced. What running game stat tells about the line? Yards per carry? Total yards? how is play selection accounted for ? What about how good the recievers and back are?

 

I mean c'mon, yes if you draft or sign a future HOF QB, they can probably make some plays despite a poor line, and 10 other teams would have drafted Big Ben first had they known how special he was. Given that it is not common to draft or sign a hall of famer qb, it seems realistic to advocate building a team in the trenches. If you happen to luck into draft a future HOF'er, wellthen you should have a damn good team for some time, and you can skimp on RB (Colts)

[DFITZ1]

Not buying that. Remember TE as the same guy who had the Bills with a winning record last year until his first concussion. I feel bad for him. Barely protected, horrible OC and HC. Just think he had a fair chance.. yes, he started but with what talent around him players or coaching? I agree with DC Tom - the Bills system or lack of beat everything out of him. Just like Losman and every other QB since Kelly.

 

Thank you for making more sense than 90% of this thread. If TE is done for, it is not because he enterred pro football without the talent, it's because the Jauron, Schonert and Fairchild ruined him (as well as the lack of talent around him).

 

I wonder if 90% of the negative posters here remember that TE legitimately beat out a veteran player for the #2 position behind Losman in TE's rookie year. I even forgot who that QB was, but he got cut because TE legitimately beat him out. My bet is 90% of the posters here were pushing for TE to be the #2 during his rookie pre-season, and later pushed for him to start over JP.

 

I wonder if 90% of the negative posters here actually believe it is smart to bring a player back 2 weeks following a concussion. There were posts on TSW by those in the medical field that TE's problems after the Arizona game clearly mimiced post-concussion syndrome. I know people who have had injuries and the recovery is often in months, rather than years.

 

I wonder if 90% of the posters here realize that not all QB's are Jim Kelly's and actually take years to develop. Manning (either), Brees, Rivers, Young have all had growing pains. What sets them apart is sound coaching staffs and talent on teh line and skill positions. TE has neither. Also, QB's under Turk Schonert's tuelege have often regressed (there was a Buff News article on this after Schonert was canned).

 

For those who feel TE done in more by the staff around him than himself, and point at the putrid front office, rather than TE, you deserve a better team. For those who want to throw TE out with trash and think he never belonged in the NFL, pray everyday that your boss (or customers, or whoever pays you) doesn't treat you the same way.

[Sisyphean Bills]

Thank you for making more sense than 90% of this thread. If TE is done for, it is not because he enterred pro football without the talent, it's because the Jauron, Schonert and Fairchild ruined him (as well as the lack of talent around him).

 

I wonder if 90% of the negative posters here remember that TE legitimately beat out a veteran player for the #2 position behind Losman in TE's rookie year. I even forgot who that QB was, but he got cut because TE legitimately beat him out. My bet is 90% of the posters here were pushing for TE to be the #2 during his rookie pre-season, and later pushed for him to start over JP.

 

I wonder if 90% of the negative posters here actually believe it is smart to bring a player back 2 weeks following a concussion. There were posts on TSW by those in the medical field that TE's problems after the Arizona game clearly mimiced post-concussion syndrome. I know people who have had injuries and the recovery is often in months, rather than years.

 

I wonder if 90% of the posters here realize that not all QB's are Jim Kelly's and actually take years to develop. Manning (either), Brees, Rivers, Young have all had growing pains. What sets them apart is sound coaching staffs and talent on teh line and skill positions. TE has neither. Also, QB's under Turk Schonert's tuelege have often regressed (there was a Buff News article on this after Schonert was canned).

 

For those who feel TE done in more by the staff around him than himself, and point at the putrid front office, rather than TE, you deserve a better team. For those who want to throw TE out with trash and think he never belonged in the NFL, pray everyday that your boss (or customers, or whoever pays you) doesn't treat you the same way.

Craig Nall? Kevin Eakin? Gibran Hamdan?

[Cynical]

Thank you for making more sense than 90% of this thread. If TE is done for, it is not because he enterred pro football without the talent, it's because the Jauron, Schonert and Fairchild ruined him (as well as the lack of talent around him).

 

Why does it have to be "ruined him"?

Why can't it be "he never learned to adapt"?

Or, he has talent, but "not enough to compete at the NFL level"?

 

I wonder if 90% of the negative posters here remember that TE legitimately beat out a veteran player for the #2 position behind Losman in TE's rookie year. I even forgot who that QB was, but he got cut because TE legitimately beat him out. My bet is 90% of the posters here were pushing for TE to be the #2 during his rookie pre-season, and later pushed for him to start over JP.

 

So he beat out a back up, and that automatically translates into being a starter at some point?

Could it possibly be being a back up QB is all Trent is good enough for?

 

I wonder if 90% of the negative posters here actually believe it is smart to bring a player back 2 weeks following a concussion. There were posts on TSW by those in the medical field that TE's problems after the Arizona game clearly mimiced post-concussion syndrome. I know people who have had injuries and the recovery is often in months, rather than years.

 

This has been brought up before.

Assuming TE is "suffering" from PCS, then TE really needs to reconsider his career choice. Playing a violent game may not be in his best interest health wise. If the team had Trent's best interest in mind, they would actually dump his ass. Let another team contribute to Trent becoming mindless vegetable by the time he is 30.

 

I wonder if 90% of the posters here realize that not all QB's are Jim Kelly's and actually take years to develop. Manning (either), Brees, Rivers, Young have all had growing pains. What sets them apart is sound coaching staffs and talent on teh line and skill positions. TE has neither. Also, QB's under Turk Schonert's tuelege have often regressed (there was a Buff News article on this after Schonert was canned).

 

For those who feel TE done in more by the staff around him than himself, and point at the putrid front office, rather than TE, you deserve a better team. For those who want to throw TE out with trash and think he never belonged in the NFL, pray everyday that your boss (or customers, or whoever pays you) doesn't treat you the same way.

 

Interesting statement, as regular working men and women deal with this issue everyday of their working lives.

Trent (or any football player and coach) is no different.

[DFITZ1]

Why does it have to be "ruined him"?

Why can't it be "he never learned to adapt"?

Or, he has talent, but "not enough to compete at the NFL level"?

 

Your comments are good, and I hope I can answer them.

Actually, "never learned to adapt" is almost as strong as headstrong as "ruined him". Actually, in his rookie year, the start of the 2008 season, and even the first 2 games this year, it looked like he was adapting pretty well. OK, the adaptation wasn't complete, but he was already ahead of JP and Todd Collins. By "ruining him", I mean that following the concussion, he was coached (or not coached) and/or was allowed to play with a debilitating injury such that his performance declined and would be difficult or impossible to restore his ability. If the negative posters want to toss him away, they've essentially said that TE went from a solid roster spot to useless to the team. That sounds like ruined to me. No one seems to want to explain why he went from promising to inept. I don't believe his record shows that he can't adapt. My theory is he's been put in a position where he can't succeed, nor advance. This is also true of Fitzpatrick. Despite a few early successes. His performance isn't much better. And yes, he checks down often, too.

 

So he beat out a back up, and that automatically translates into being a starter at some point?

Could it possibly be being a back up QB is all Trent is good enough for?

 

Yes, it could be possible, but with the abyssmal play of the rent-a-player o-line, the no-huddle disaster, it's hard to judge. Actually, if he's good enough to be a back-up, why should we let him go? He might as well compete for a roster spot again next year. With Fitz's lack of accuracy, he's not going to stay long either.

 

This has been brought up before.

Assuming TE is "suffering" from PCS, then TE really needs to reconsider his career choice. Playing a violent game may not be in his best interest health wise. If the team had Trent's best interest in mind, they would actually dump his ass. Let another team contribute to Trent becoming mindless vegetable by the time he is 30.

 

You are right. There are many ex-players who stayed in the game to long. If he still has PCS from that hit in Arizona, I believe that should be made public, only so that he is treated fairly, and not berated like he never deserved to be on an NFL team as some posters have said. If PCS caused his problems, making it public would serve notice to concussion effects (a important topic in sports today) and put the blame on the Bills medical and/or coaching staff for letting him play too soon.

 

 

Interesting statement, as regular working men and women deal with this issue everyday of their working lives.

Trent (or any football player and coach) is no different.

 

However, most regular places of work do not hire and fire us regulars at the rate of the NFL, NBA, NHL and MLB hires and fires players, coaches, and upper tier front office staff. Plus, our job performance doesn't get discussed on message boards and opinionated by mindless sports reporters (yes, I'm talking of the Buffalo News)

[Thurman#1]

Winning would be nice. Acting like you care about winning would be better. Acting like you care how the Bills fans feel about winning would be the best.

 

 

 

He did all of those ... the problem was that he didn't beat any good teams. But let's face it, that's not so much a Trent problem as a Buffalo Bills problem.

 

He might be back next year, as a second-stringer, but he surely hasn't shown enough to make anyone but a snow-blind Trent fan that he has a chance to be a consistent winner in the NFL.

[Thurman#1]

If the negative posters want to toss him away, they've essentially said that TE went from a solid roster spot to useless to the team. That sounds like ruined to me. No one seems to want to explain why he went from promising to inept.

 

 

You're not ruined till you have PROVED that you were actually good enough to do the job and only after that rendered incapable. Trent never proved that, he simply didn't. If you never prove yourself good enough, you're not ruined, you just were never good enough.

 

He went from a solid roster spot to useless to the team, yeah, but that's the career trajectory of 80% of all QBs. Your roster spot is secure till the team is confident that you are simply never going to reach any level of competence.

 

Again, promising doesn't mean good, it means "may possibly become good." So promising to inept is what happens to many many QBs, not just Trent.

[Thurman#1]

Accept that it isn't. A fact that I've proven to you many, many, many times now (dig up any post in which we've had this debate for the countless references I've made to prove it to you).

 

And once again, if you truly believe that, please answer any of the following (no, I won't stop asking until you actually do):

 

- Why did Pittsburgh, with their lousy OL (as evident by their below average running game and high volume of sacks allowed), win the Superbowl last year?

- Why does Pittsburgh, with their lousy OL (as evident by their below average running game and high volume of sacks allowed), have the #6 passing offense this year?

- Why do numerous other teams, Minnesota, Philadelphia, and Green Bay among them, with their lousy OLs (as evident by their below average running games and high volume of sacks allowed), have great passing offenses this year?

 

Please answer the question...just once...without some blanket "everyone knows" or "so-and-so says but I won't provide a link" or "these other fans think so, so it must be right" argument. Here's a hint to help you out: it's the QB, not the o-line.

 

 

 

Link?

 

In fact the only quote from T.O. that I remember was him supporting Fitzpatrick over Edwards.

 

 

 

Bandit, thing is that the Pittsburgh o-line is a lot, not just a little but a lot better than the Bills o-line. Same with Green Bay, which people here keep posting about. The Bills o-line is a great deal worse than those two.

 

Even great QBs can't do well behind genuinely awful o-lines, though they might get by behind slightly below-average o-lines.

 

I went to profootballfocus.com a terrific site which ranks OLs and gives every single guy a numeric grade for each game. Another great feature is that if you click on the name of each guy, you get an exact look at his season game by game. They rank all tackles together (right and left), all guards together (right and left), and obviously all centers together.

 

I used the overall ranking for each guy rather than the actual score they were given, because it makes it much easier to compare them quickly and visually.

 

Incognito might be a big step up for the Bills o-line, but since he doesn't even know the system yet, I think it's fair to leave him out of consideration and look at the line before he got here. He's only been here for one game, and has yet to fit in much at all.

 

There are 77 tackles ranked, so all the tackles are ranked out of 77 tackles. There are 78 guards listed, so all the guards are ranked out of 78 guards. And there are 35 centers listed, so the centers are ranked out of 35. Anyway, here's how it came out.

 

Pittsburgh RT: Willie Colon 3/77. One of the absolute best tackles in the league. Terrific.

Green Bay RT: Mark Tauscher 28/77 (last five games) and Allen Barbre 62/77 (first 8 games). Tauscher is a big improvement.

Buffalo RT: Kirk Chambers 43/77 (note that Butler was in the top 15 when he was healthy)

 

Pittsburgh RG: Trai Essex 77/78. Pee-yew.

Green Bay RG: Josh Sitton 7/78. A very fine player.

Buffalo RG: Eric Wood 60/78. He got good reaction in Buffalo, but showed clearly that he was a rookie.

 

Pittsburgh C: Justin Hartwig 35/35. Dead last. His play was never good, but got worse in the last four games.

Green Bay C: Scott Wells 19/35.

Buffalo C: Geoff Hangartner 29/35. This is cause for celebration, actually. Right up through week 11, Hangartner was dead last. He's improved a lot over the past 5 weeks.

 

Pittsburgh LG: Chris Kemoeatu 41/78

Green Bay LG: Daryn Colledge 27/78

Buffalo LG: Andy Levitre 75/78. Not good. At all. Again, a rookie on a very unstable line and may improve greatly. Had four horrendous games in weeks 4 - 7, but unfortunately also had another true stinker in week 14.

 

Pittsburgh LT: Max Starks 15/77. (A fine player.)

Green Bay LT: Chad Clifton 53/77. T.J. Lang 55/77 (played in 6 games due to injury).

Buffalo LT: Jonathan Scott 60/77. Demetrius Bell 76/77 (played in 8 games) Happily for Demetrius, Oakland's Henderson has caught up to him and taken over the final spot after Demetrius stopped playing.

 

 

The results:

 

Both of Pittsburgh's tackles are fine players, with Colon being outstanding, though the Steelers also have two dogs, Essex and Hartwig in the middle. Green Bay's right side, Tauscher and Sitton, are very good, with Sitton being the #4 RG in the league, and they don't have anybody who is genuinely bad, though their LT, the Clifton/Lang combo, is below average. As you can see, Kirk Chambers, by being only slightly below average, has easily been our best OL. Buffalo has four out of our five positions in the bottom 25% in the league, with Chambers towering over the rest of our guys by, as I say, being only slightly below average.

 

 

Incognito, by the way, is 33/78 at guard.

 

The bottom line is that our QBs played behind OLs that are far below the Pittsburgh and Green Bay OLs, and believing otherwise is just kidding yourself.

[Sisyphean Bills]

No one seems to want to explain why he went from promising to inept.

Therein lies the rub. Trent Edwards was never a money QB. To be a successful team you need a QB that can win games by throwing the football and scoring points, leading successful drives. The Trentites have always looked at the W-L record and attributed it 100% to Trent, which has been and is faulty logic for a team sport. Trent has never been able to consistently lead the offensive passing game and he has always been a poor red-zone QB. This season just exposed his weaknesses, bare-ass naked to the world. All the same faults that were mentioned as a rookie and he couldn't get the ball to the $13M+ in receiving talent he was given.

[thebandit27]

Bandit, thing is that the Pittsburgh o-line is a lot, not just a little but a lot better than the Bills o-line. Same with Green Bay, which people here keep posting about. The Bills o-line is a great deal worse than those two.

 

Even great QBs can't do well behind genuinely awful o-lines, though they might get by behind slightly below-average o-lines.

 

I went to profootballfocus.com a terrific site which ranks OLs and gives every single guy a numeric grade for each game. Another great feature is that if you click on the name of each guy, you get an exact look at his season game by game. They rank all tackles together (right and left), all guards together (right and left), and obviously all centers together.

 

I used the overall ranking for each guy rather than the actual score they were given, because it makes it much easier to compare them quickly and visually.

 

Incognito might be a big step up for the Bills o-line, but since he doesn't even know the system yet, I think it's fair to leave him out of consideration and look at the line before he got here. He's only been here for one game, and has yet to fit in much at all.

 

There are 77 tackles ranked, so all the tackles are ranked out of 77 tackles. There are 78 guards listed, so all the guards are ranked out of 78 guards. And there are 35 centers listed, so the centers are ranked out of 35. Anyway, here's how it came out.

 

Pittsburgh RT: Willie Colon 3/77. One of the absolute best tackles in the league. Terrific.

Green Bay RT: Mark Tauscher 28/77 (last five games) and Allen Barbre 62/77 (first 8 games). Tauscher is a big improvement.

Buffalo RT: Kirk Chambers 43/77 (note that Butler was in the top 15 when he was healthy)

 

Pittsburgh RG: Trai Essex 77/78. Pee-yew.

Green Bay RG: Josh Sitton 7/78. A very fine player.

Buffalo RG: Eric Wood 60/78. He got good reaction in Buffalo, but showed clearly that he was a rookie.

 

Pittsburgh C: Justin Hartwig 35/35. Dead last. His play was never good, but got worse in the last four games.

Green Bay C: Scott Wells 19/35.

Buffalo C: Geoff Hangartner 29/35. This is cause for celebration, actually. Right up through week 11, Hangartner was dead last. He's improved a lot over the past 5 weeks.

 

Pittsburgh LG: Chris Kemoeatu 41/78

Green Bay LG: Daryn Colledge 27/78

Buffalo LG: Andy Levitre 75/78. Not good. At all. Again, a rookie on a very unstable line and may improve greatly. Had four horrendous games in weeks 4 - 7, but unfortunately also had another true stinker in week 14.

 

Pittsburgh LT: Max Starks 15/77. (A fine player.)

Green Bay LT: Chad Clifton 53/77. T.J. Lang 55/77 (played in 6 games due to injury).

Buffalo LT: Jonathan Scott 60/77. Demetrius Bell 76/77 (played in 8 games) Happily for Demetrius, Oakland's Henderson has caught up to him and taken over the final spot after Demetrius stopped playing.

 

 

The results:

 

Both of Pittsburgh's tackles are fine players, with Colon being outstanding, though the Steelers also have two dogs, Essex and Hartwig in the middle. Green Bay's right side, Tauscher and Sitton, are very good, with Sitton being the #4 RG in the league, and they don't have anybody who is genuinely bad, though their LT, the Clifton/Lang combo, is below average. As you can see, Kirk Chambers, by being only slightly below average, has easily been our best OL. Buffalo has four out of our five positions in the bottom 25% in the league, with Chambers towering over the rest of our guys by, as I say, being only slightly below average.

 

 

Incognito, by the way, is 33/78 at guard.

 

The bottom line is that our QBs played behind OLs that are far below the Pittsburgh and Green Bay OLs, and believing otherwise is just kidding yourself.

 

Thanks for bringing some desperately-needed analysis to an otherwise-drowning POV, Thurman. I'm very familiar with that site. Note sure if you remember, but I'm the guy that pointed you toward it in a previous thread.

 

While the stats you post are intriguing, sooner or later the evaluation of an offensive line has to come down to performance, in my opinion. While I find PFF to be a very good site for evaluating individuals (especially defensive backs, there's nobody else that even comes close IMO), when it comes to offensive line play as a unit, I prefer Football Outsiders' approach. There's a lot to sink your teeth into here:

 

http://footballoutsiders.com/stats/ol

 

As you'll see, when they crunch the data based on all their criteria, they rank GB slightly behind and Pittsburgh slightly ahead of Buffalo in terms of pass blocking. Run blocking is another story, however, as GB is ranked pretty highly in comparison to both Pittsburgh and Buffalo.

 

Another interesting case study is Tennessee, which ranks #1 in the NFL with the fewest sacks allowed, ranks #3 on Football Outsiders "adjusted" statistics for pass blocking, and boasts the league's leading rusher, but they were 0-6 with Kerry Collins at QB. Since changing QBs, however, they've gone 7-1, and that one loss was a Monday Night squeaker to the 14-0 Colts. Same goes for the Giants, who rank 5th in "adjusted" pass blocking, but find themselves mired in a divisional squabble for playoff contention when Eli Manning faultered down the stretch. Ditto for teams like Atlanta and TB, who the adjusted numbers show have more than adequte pass protection, but haven't gotten anywhere near the QB play they need to win games. Even teams like Cleveland and St. Louis have markedly better pass protection than Buffalo but can't win games (actually, Cleveland has won games recently; a stretch of solid play that coincided with...drumroll please...a change at QB).

 

So perhaps the bottom line is not as black-and-white as you originally perceived, Thurman. I think my evaluation is still quite valid: a good QB can lead a great offense despite a poor OL, and (corrollary) a good OL can't compensate for a lousy QB.