OK anther Thought on the sale of the Bills

[Ed_Formerly_of_Roch]

Here's a thought I had, don't think I've seen this angle discussed prior. There's been alot of talk how RW's heirs won't be able to keep team even if they wanted due to estate taxes. For those of you not familier with estate taxes, next year 2010 is not only an upcapped year in the NFL, but also is from an estate tax point. Next year is the year to die as there currently is 100% exemption from tax. It also is the year to transfer property out of ones name to someone else to avoid potential estate taxes.

 

The fed is planning to change this, two weeks ago the house voted to permanently set the exemption at $3.5 mil. This isn't anything new as all along there was a plan to make some new likely higher amount the permanent number. The Senate however has stated that it will not vote on this measure until after Jan 1st. Two things are almost certain, by sometime early next year there will be an exemption set likely in the 3 to 5 mil range which compared to the value of the Bill's is a drop in the bucket. The other certainly is there will be a period of time in early 2010 before the new limit is enacted. That would give RW a window to sell the team off, and transfer the proceeds to his wife's and or kids name to avoid the estate tax. That's why the Fed is going to change this as otherwise many people will do similar things to avoid eventual estate taxes. Maybe RW cuts a deal where as long as he's alive he's named CEO, but the team is sold.

 

Certainly no evidence of anything other than to say there's been alot of chatter out of Jim Kelly lately, makes me wonder if something could be going on behind the scenes. Also could explain why RW all of a sudden is willing to spend $10 mil on a coach as it's not his $10 mil. The one thing I do totally believe is anything RW has stated in the past means nothing as he's not tipping his hand in any way till after the fact.

 

Something else to consider??

[Mr. WEO]

Here's a thought I had, don't think I've seen this angle discussed prior. There's been alot of talk how RW's heirs won't be able to keep team even if they wanted due to estate taxes. For those of you not familier with estate taxes, next year 2010 is not only an upcapped year in the NFL, but also is from an estate tax point. Next year is the year to die as there currently is 100% exemption from tax. It also is the year to transfer property out of ones name to someone else to avoid potential estate taxes.

 

The fed is planning to change this, two weeks ago the house voted to permanently set the exemption at $3.5 mil. This isn't anything new as all along there was a plan to make some new likely higher amount the permanent number. The Senate however has stated that it will not vote on this measure until after Jan 1st. Two things are almost certain, by sometime early next year there will be an exemption set likely in the 3 to 5 mil range which compared to the value of the Bill's is a drop in the bucket. The other certainly is there will be a period of time in early 2010 before the new limit is enacted. That would give RW a window to sell the team off, and transfer the proceeds to his wife's and or kids name to avoid the estate tax. That's why the Fed is going to change this as otherwise many people will do similar things to avoid eventual estate taxes. Maybe RW cuts a deal where as long as he's alive he's named CEO, but the team is sold.

 

Certainly no evidence of anything other than to say there's been alot of chatter out of Jim Kelly lately, makes me wonder if something could be going on behind the scenes. Also could explain why RW all of a sudden is willing to spend $10 mil on a coach as it's not his $10 mil. The one thing I do totally believe is anything RW has stated in the past means nothing as he's not tipping his hand in any way till after the fact.

 

Something else to consider??

Well, unless Ralph is dead in 2010 (before the team is sold), there is no way for his heirs to avoid the estate tax.

[BillsVet]

It's debatable whether RW was willing to spend 10M per on a GM/HC type. Until I see them attract someone worthy of a contract that high, I'm not going to believe it. I'm not even confident the big changes to the front office will happen.

 

Your info is good, but I think RW's vision of his ownership remains the same: he's going to own it until his final day, whenever that may come. RW and his handlers (Littman, Berchtold, Brandon, et al) have insisted on not changing because they can't make any plans based on the owner's advanced age.

 

This off-season will reveal who and what they really are. If there are sweeping changes, then perhaps there's a plan after his passing for this franchise. But if no significant changes are made, I think the inevitable happens when he's passed away.

[Ed_Formerly_of_Roch]

Well if were to die Jan 2 or up to the changes that get voted on take affect, then definitely no estate tax. However from what I've read, this also is a way for people to pass on property/assets to others and to avoid the estate taxes. That's why the govt wants to close this "loophole" up ASAP. The way I read it RW could pass the team on to his heirs and avoid the estate tax, though I'm sure it's still a complex method involved.

 

Well, unless Ralph is dead in 2010 (before the team is sold), there is no way for his heirs to avoid the estate tax.

[BillsWatch]

Well if were to die Jan 2 or up to the changes that get voted on take affect, then definitely no estate tax.

 

There is no definite when it comes to IRS and taxes. They make rulings which retroactively tax people. It happened to me, my employee funded classes became taxable after I had completed them and I needed to pay the taxes and to top it off welfare taxes as well.

[KD in CA]

Wishful thinking, but whatever Congress agrees to on the estate tax, you can be sure it'll be retroactive to Jan 1.

[Tbone]

It's not just the estate tax. It is the capital gains tax as well. Remember Wilson only bought the team for 25k- that will result in over 800 million of taxable gains! Wilson will never sell the team because it will result in double taxation 10s of millions of dollars will be lost.

 

Please no more sale conversations.

[Thoner7]

F the government. Just leave us all alone already.

[The_Philster]

It's not just the estate tax. It is the capital gains tax as well. Remember Wilson only bought the team for 25k- that will result in over 800 million of taxable gains! Wilson will never sell the team because it will result in double taxation 10s of millions of dollars will be lost.

 

Please no more sale conversations.

bingo...he'd be stupid to sell at this point...capital gains tax on the team would be ridiculous..

Only smart move to make is leave it to his wife and then she sells it...no estate tax and only a tax on the sale of the team...which is what has been rumored to happen for nearly 2 years now...with Jim Kelly's group being the targeted buyer

[Chalkie Gerzowski]

F the government. Just leave us all alone already.

 

 

 

thread can be closed now.

[McBeane]

It's debatable whether RW was willing to spend 10M per on a GM/HC type. Until I see them attract someone worthy of a contract that high, I'm not going to believe it. I'm not even confident the big changes to the front office will happen.

 

Your info is good, but I think RW's vision of his ownership remains the same: he's going to own it until his final day, whenever that may come. RW and his handlers (Littman, Berchtold, Brandon, et al) have insisted on not changing because they can't make any plans based on the owner's advanced age.

 

This off-season will reveal who and what they really are. If there are sweeping changes, then perhaps there's a plan after his passing for this franchise. But if no significant changes are made, I think the inevitable happens when he's passed away.

 

For once, I agree with you (nothing bad implied, we all have different views). Very good points, appears very logical and realistic.

[GrudginglyPessimistic]

Well, unless Ralph is dead in 2010 (before the team is sold), there is no way for his heirs to avoid the estate tax.

The entire very which trusts and estates legal profession would likely beg to differ with you.

 

You really have to be a total idiot who does not take advantage of easily accessible legal advice to leave yourself in a position to have your heirs tagged flat out with an estate tax that confiscates all or even a majority of this gift of an estate that the individual did nothing to earn.

 

Definitely different approaches would mean some costs (for example if you left your entire estate in an irrevocable trust to an IRS code 501c3 not for profit, all estate taxes on the asset can be escaped- to do this Ralph's heirs would lose traditional ownership rights to the Bills. However, it would be a relatively straifgtforward matter to set up a 501c3 which was essentially operated by Mr. Ralph's designated heirs and even assign them a salary generated by the team which would be quite lucrative.

 

The whole "death tax" idea is a political construct which does what it is designed to do in terms of rallying segments of the public behind this GOP perspective, but it can reasonanbly avoided with simple due diligence as shown by the actions of moguls like Bill Gates and Warren Buffett.

 

Both are already hiding billions of dollars in plain site to do actions they are determining now while they are still alive and can be carried out by their designees with rich financial reward to their designees without the feds getting a hold of the vast and utter vast majority of this wealth.

 

Buffett in fact flat out says that a huge fiscal gift to his offspring that they did nothing to earn except having one of Buffetts sperm cells win a race to an egg would be counter-productive to society if he could simply will them a gift of billions.

[K Gun Special]

The entire very which trusts and estates legal profession would likely beg to differ with you.

 

You really have to be a total idiot who does not take advantage of easily accessible legal advice to leave yourself in a position to have your heirs tagged flat out with an estate tax that confiscates all or even a majority of this gift of an estate that the individual did nothing to earn.

 

Definitely different approaches would mean some costs (for example if you left your entire estate in an irrevocable trust to an IRS code 501c3 not for profit, all estate taxes on the asset can be escaped- to do this Ralph's heirs would lose traditional ownership rights to the Bills. However, it would be a relatively straifgtforward matter to set up a 501c3 which was essentially operated by Mr. Ralph's designated heirs and even assign them a salary generated by the team which would be quite lucrative.

 

The whole "death tax" idea is a political construct which does what it is designed to do in terms of rallying segments of the public behind this GOP perspective, but it can reasonanbly avoided with simple due diligence as shown by the actions of moguls like Bill Gates and Warren Buffett.

 

Both are already hiding billions of dollars in plain site to do actions they are determining now while they are still alive and can be carried out by their designees with rich financial reward to their designees without the feds getting a hold of the vast and utter vast majority of this wealth.

 

Buffett in fact flat out says that a huge fiscal gift to his offspring that they did nothing to earn except having one of Buffetts sperm cells win a race to an egg would be counter-productive to society if he could simply will them a gift of billions.

 

Ralph has already made sure of this. I know the guys who did the transfer but i cant tell what kind of car i drive.

 

 

Does anyone really think a business man like ralph is dumb enough to not have thought of the tax implications a long time ago?

[Tbone]

The entire very which trusts and estates legal profession would likely beg to differ with you.

 

You really have to be a total idiot who does not take advantage of easily accessible legal advice to leave yourself in a position to have your heirs tagged flat out with an estate tax that confiscates all or even a majority of this gift of an estate that the individual did nothing to earn.

 

Definitely different approaches would mean some costs (for example if you left your entire estate in an irrevocable trust to an IRS code 501c3 not for profit, all estate taxes on the asset can be escaped- to do this Ralph's heirs would lose traditional ownership rights to the Bills. However, it would be a relatively straifgtforward matter to set up a 501c3 which was essentially operated by Mr. Ralph's designated heirs and even assign them a salary generated by the team which would be quite lucrative.

 

The whole "death tax" idea is a political construct which does what it is designed to do in terms of rallying segments of the public behind this GOP perspective, but it can reasonanbly avoided with simple due diligence as shown by the actions of moguls like Bill Gates and Warren Buffett.

 

Both are already hiding billions of dollars in plain site to do actions they are determining now while they are still alive and can be carried out by their designees with rich financial reward to their designees without the feds getting a hold of the vast and utter vast majority of this wealth.

 

Buffett in fact flat out says that a huge fiscal gift to his offspring that they did nothing to earn except having one of Buffetts sperm cells win a race to an egg would be counter-productive to society if he could simply will them a gift of billions.

 

 

Unless your a lawyer you shouldn't be making such comments. You clearly have no understanding of what goes into the creation of a 501c3 and the prohibitions associated with the operation of one. You seem to imply that Wilson should partake in a fraud of sorts by creating a 501c3 to presumably run a FOR PROFIT football operation and then dumping assets to his heirs to avoid the estate tax.

 

 

"Ralph has already made sure of this. I know the guys who did the transfer but i cant tell what kind of car i drive.

 

Does anyone really think a business man like ralph is dumb enough to not have thought of the tax implications a long time ago?"

 

I highly doubt this is the case, in the even that Wilson has transferred the team into an irrevocable trust and somehow a media outlet hasnt caught wind of it, it would be questionable as to whether he could avoid the estate tax with it given the amount of control over the organization he has.

 

:lol:

[GrudginglyPessimistic]

Unless your a lawyer you shouldn't be making such comments. You clearly have no understanding of what goes into the creation of a 501c3 and the prohibitions associated with the operation of one. You seem to imply that Wilson should partake in a fraud of sorts by creating a 501c3 to presumably run a FOR PROFIT football operation and then dumping assets to his heirs to avoid the estate tax.

 

 

"Ralph has already made sure of this. I know the guys who did the transfer but i cant tell what kind of car i drive.

 

Does anyone really think a business man like ralph is dumb enough to not have thought of the tax implications a long time ago?"

 

I highly doubt this is the case, in the even that Wilson has transferred the team into an irrevocable trust and somehow a media outlet hasnt caught wind of it, it would be questionable as to whether he could avoid the estate tax with it given the amount of control over the organization he has.

 

:lol:

I am not saying at all that he did or should do this. I only offer this up as an opposite extreme example of what one can do that parallels the other extreme statement that there is nothing whatsoever that Mr. Ralph can do to escape the dreaded death tax.

 

The simple fact of the matter as it seems to be is that there is an entire world of possibilities out there in terms of what Ralph can do. The extreme I propose could easily result in illegal activity which one would be a risky fool (not normally what a businessman would do unless he headed up Goldman Sachs or Bear Stearns and you figured the guvmint would be there to bail you out so you do go ahead and do stupid things) to do.

 

However, as ridiculous as this risky behavior would be, the line trotted out there by folks who claim there is no escape from the estate tax is at least just as silly a position to take.

 

With a running start to prepare for the reality that you will die, and with the flexibility that you do not have a direct descendant who wants to run the team, but you want to transfer some significant assets to your heirs, it is quite doable to figure out some mechanisms where one can essentially avoid the estate tax.

 

No one knows what Mr. Ralph is gonna do.

 

However, as he has ample cash to buy smart lawyers and there is no apparent long-haired snot nose kid running around the Bills camp pretending to be an athlete (like Larry Quinn used to do when he insultingly skated with the players and old-timers sometimes) things look pretty set for the estate tax to need a lot of management work but to quite likely be pretty much a non-issue as far as determining the future of the Bills.

[K Gun Special]

Unless your a lawyer you shouldn't be making such comments. You clearly have no understanding of what goes into the creation of a 501c3 and the prohibitions associated with the operation of one. You seem to imply that Wilson should partake in a fraud of sorts by creating a 501c3 to presumably run a FOR PROFIT football operation and then dumping assets to his heirs to avoid the estate tax.

 

 

"Ralph has already made sure of this. I know the guys who did the transfer but i cant tell what kind of car i drive.

 

Does anyone really think a business man like ralph is dumb enough to not have thought of the tax implications a long time ago?"

 

I highly doubt this is the case, in the even that Wilson has transferred the team into an irrevocable trust and somehow a media outlet hasnt caught wind of it, it would be questionable as to whether he could avoid the estate tax with it given the amount of control over the organization he has.

 

:lol:

 

 

Not a trust, but some sort of corporation back in the 70s, he was forward looking and knew he wouldnt live forever. Bottom line is he doesnt own the team outright like someone owns a car. The framework is in place so his family doesnt get screwed.

[Tbone]

I am not saying at all that he did or should do this. I only offer this up as an opposite extreme example of what one can do that parallels the other extreme statement that there is nothing whatsoever that Mr. Ralph can do to escape the dreaded death tax.

 

The simple fact of the matter as it seems to be is that there is an entire world of possibilities out there in terms of what Ralph can do. The extreme I propose could easily result in illegal activity which one would be a risky fool (not normally what a businessman would do unless he headed up Goldman Sachs or Bear Stearns and you figured the guvmint would be there to bail you out so you do go ahead and do stupid things) to do.

 

However, as ridiculous as this risky behavior would be, the line trotted out there by folks who claim there is no escape from the estate tax is at least just as silly a position to take.

 

With a running start to prepare for the reality that you will die, and with the flexibility that you do not have a direct descendant who wants to run the team, but you want to transfer some significant assets to your heirs, it is quite doable to figure out some mechanisms where one can essentially avoid the estate tax.

 

No one knows what Mr. Ralph is gonna do.

 

However, as he has ample cash to buy smart lawyers and there is no apparent long-haired snot nose kid running around the Bills camp pretending to be an athlete (like Larry Quinn used to do when he insultingly skated with the players and old-timers sometimes) things look pretty set for the estate tax to need a lot of management work but to quite likely be pretty much a non-issue as far as determining the future of the Bills.

 

My point is that you dont understand what you are talking about. It is not easy to avoid the estate tax AND pass significant assets to heirs that are not your spouse, the fact that you think it is shows that you have absolutely NO knowledge about estates, gifts and trusts. If it were as easy as you suggest there would be no estate tax, and certainly the government wouldnt be making hundreds of billions each year from the estate tax (and remember, the people that pay the estate tax are usually pretty sophisticated businessmen, because an estate has to be worth more than 3.5 million to have tax imposed).

 

That is not to say that planning cant be done to minimize estate tax exposure, but I should also note that in the instances where you can avoid the estate tax many times other taxes apply (for example the gift tax). Estate planning is not simple, much of it deals with structuring transfers due to the needs of heirs, most of the time a secondary concern is the tax that will be applied.

 

There is a world of possibilities with regard to the disposition of Mr. Wilson's assets, but they are not of the range that you think.

[mrags]

I believe the only way Ralph could do this w/o getting hit with the taxes is if he died. He cannot transfer to anyone under this. It only works if he passes. However, I do believe there is/will be something that comes out behind the scenes after Ralph passes and we magically see the team stay in Buffalo. I wouldnt be suprised if Ralph has found some kind of loophole to keep the team here. But as we all know that couldnt be brought out at this time or it wouldnt be a loophole would it.

[Mr. WEO]

The entire very which trusts and estates legal profession would likely beg to differ with you.

 

Actually, I was pointing out that estate taxes are not levied until after the individual has, in fact, died.

 

You really have to be a total idiot who does not take advantage of easily accessible legal advice.................for example if you left your entire estate in an irrevocable trust to an IRS code 501c3 not for profit, all estate taxes on the asset can be escaped- to do this Ralph's heirs would lose traditional ownership rights to the Bills. However, it would be a relatively straifgtforward matter to set up a 501c3 which was essentially operated by Mr. Ralph's designated heirs and even assign them a salary generated by the team which would be quite lucrative.

 

I am not saying at all that he did or should do this.

 

The extreme I propose could easily result in illegal activity which one would be a risky fool

 

However, as ridiculous as this risky behavior would be, the line trotted out there by folks who claim there is no escape from the estate tax is at least just as silly a position to take.

 

Thanks for clearing that up. Fastest turnaround ever.

 

the line trotted out there by folks who claim there is no escape from the estate tax is at least just as silly a position to take.

 

I certainly wasn't claiming "no escape". Some time ago I suggested there is a very simple way to avoid any taxes upon Ralph's passing---and it's free and legal: leave it all to the missus. She doesn't have to "run the team", she can just count the money. When she sells it (to "Jim Kelly's Group", if you like), she will get half of its value after taxes. Not a bad haul for nothing, don't you think? She can then set up a legal trust to dole out her booty upon her joining Ralph in the after life.

[weehawk]

Supposedly, it has nothing to do with tax issues. When this all started, RW publicly stated that his heirs have no interest in owning the team. They want the money from a sale and nothing more.