Where Have All the Lefties Gone?

[John Adams]

That's not the thought process that was going through his head. No one "decides" to commit suicide.

 

I am not coming to Joe's defense. Judging someone you don't know regarding their suicide is pretty retarded. But what do you mean, no one "decides" to commit suicide? Seems like that's what pretty much usually happens. You decide to commit suicide and do it.

 

The only exception I'd say is if your brain is all amok because you're on drugs and kill yourself but otherwise if sober, may not have.

[DC Tom]

I am not coming to Joe's defense. Judging someone you don't know regarding their suicide is pretty retarded. But what do you mean, no one "decides" to commit suicide? Seems like that's what pretty much usually happens. You decide to commit suicide and do it.

 

The only exception I'd say is if your brain is all amok because you're on drugs and kill yourself but otherwise if sober, may not have.

 

Clinically speaking, most suicides are attributable to poor impulse control (usually attributable to some affective disorder - major depression, for example). It's a contradiction to say that someone "decides" to follow an impulse.

 

Or, to put it more colloquially...It's not that someone decides to kill themselves, it's that in order to not kill themselves they have to constantly make conscious decisions to not follow the impulse.

[Gene Frenkle]

Clinically speaking, most suicides are attributable to poor impulse control (usually attributable to some affective disorder - major depression, for example). It's a contradiction to say that someone "decides" to follow an impulse.

 

Or, to put it more colloquially...It's not that someone decides to kill themselves, it's that in order to not kill themselves they have to constantly make conscious decisions to not follow the impulse.

You could say that about a LOT of messed-up behaviors. It makes me question the whole good vs. evil thing. If you can't control an evil impulse are you evil for eventually acting upon it?

 

Christians believe that committing suicide condemns one to hell, but also that god made us the way we are. Pretty !@#$ed up.

[Chef Jim]

Christians believe that committing suicide condemns one to hell, but also that god made us the way we are. Pretty !@#$ed up.

 

What's really !@#$ed up is that in Islam it makes you a hero.

[Gene Frenkle]

What's really !@#$ed up is that in Islam it makes you a hero.

Except that it doesn't really. Ah, religion...

 

How many of these !@#$s would be blowing themselves up if they knew the correct translation?

 

The Qur’an and valid authentic Hadiths are very clear about what happens to anyone who commits suicide. According to Hadiths:

 

Quote:

 

——————————————————————————–

 

Committing Suicide is a Major Sin:

 

Bukhari Volume 2, Book 23, Number 445:

 

Narrated Jundab the Prophet said, “A man was inflicted with wounds and he committed suicide, and so Allah said: My slave has caused death on himself hurriedly, so I forbid Paradise for him.”

 

Bukhari Volume 8, Book 73, Number 73:

 

Narrated Thabit bin Ad-Dahhak: ”And if somebody commits suicide with anything in this world, he will be tortured with that very thing on the Day of Resurrection.

http://theuglytruth.wordpress.com/2007/03/...2-virgins-myth/

[Chef Jim]

Except that it doesn't really. Ah, religion...

 

How many of these !@#$s would be blowing themselves up if they knew the correct translation?

 

 

http://theuglytruth.wordpress.com/2007/03/...2-virgins-myth/

 

Then why did you only point to the Christians as being !@#$ed up when it comes to suicide?

[John Adams]

Clinically speaking, most suicides are attributable to poor impulse control (usually attributable to some affective disorder - major depression, for example). It's a contradiction to say that someone "decides" to follow an impulse.

 

Or, to put it more colloquially...It's not that someone decides to kill themselves, it's that in order to not kill themselves they have to constantly make conscious decisions to not follow the impulse.

 

Yeah, I don't buy that. Excusing actions for poor impulse control implies a lack of free will, which I don't buy.

 

That is not a knock on Paul. What he did is his business, and I hope never to feel the pain he was in.

[Gene Frenkle]

Then why did you only point to the Christians as being !@#$ed up when it comes to suicide?

Do you want me to list every !@#$ed up thing about every religion?

 

I'm an equal opportunity religion basher, I just know more about the Christians than any other.

[Gene Frenkle]

Yeah, I don't buy that. Excusing actions for poor impulse control implies a lack of free will, which I don't buy.

 

That is not a knock on Paul. What he did is his business, and it's in my rearview mirror.

This, of course, assumes free will.

[DC Tom]

Yeah, I don't buy that. Excusing actions for poor impulse control implies a lack of free will, which I don't buy.

 

That is not a knock on Paul. What he did is his business, and it's in my rearview mirror.

 

Then don't buy it. It's clinically demonstrable, though.

 

It also doesn't necessarily imply lack of free will. It doesn't even imply the lack of a choice. I'm just saying that the choice is not even remotely what you think.

[Gene Frenkle]

Then don't buy it. It's clinically demonstrable, though.

 

It also doesn't necessarily imply lack of free will. It doesn't even imply the lack of a choice. I'm just saying that the choice is not even remotely what you think.

Do you think you have free will? Not saying you do or don't, just curious if you've given it much thought.

 

Of course, asking you if you have an opinion about something is like asking if Tom Brady is a B word.

[John Adams]

Then don't buy it. It's clinically demonstrable, though.

 

It also doesn't necessarily imply lack of free will. It doesn't even imply the lack of a choice. I'm just saying that the choice is not even remotely what you think.

 

The electrochemical reactions in my brain make me think that I have free will and choice. They also make me understand that not everyone resists impulses as easily as others.

[LeviF]

Clinically speaking, most suicides are attributable to poor impulse control (usually attributable to some affective disorder - major depression, for example). It's a contradiction to say that someone "decides" to follow an impulse.

 

Or, to put it more colloquially...It's not that someone decides to kill themselves, it's that in order to not kill themselves they have to constantly make conscious decisions to not follow the impulse.

 

 

Yeah, I don't buy that. Excusing actions for poor impulse control implies a lack of free will, which I don't buy.

 

That is not a knock on Paul. What he did is his business, and I hope never to feel the pain he was in.

If I remember psych correctly, a big part of suicide is learned hopelessness. Their feeling of hopelessness runs so deep that even if an opportunity to change things presents itself they don't act on it because they feel as though there is no point in trying. Perhaps that is where this impulse comes from?

[DC Tom]

Do you think you have free will? Not saying you do or don't, just curious if you've given it much thought.

 

Of course, asking you if you have an opinion about something is like asking if Tom Brady is a B word.

 

There are certain things I don't have an opinion about. Britney Spears, for example...

 

 

I think I have free will. I also think I have "predetermined tendencies".

 

Let's see if I can explain it this way: As someone who's bipolar, and therefore occasionally acts "stupidly", there's always a question of how to accept responsibility for acting stupidly - basically, most people would ask is it neurochemistry I can't control, or behavior that I can control?

 

The problem is, that's the wrong question. In short, behavior is driven by a lot of things (broadly, what I call the biological, emotional, and cognitive environments), all of which interact, and none of which are completely under our control. Control - and free will, by extension - exists, but not as an absolute.

 

Rather, I find it more constructive to phrase the question in terms of responsibility: is my neurochemistry responsible for my behaviors, or my emotional state, or my rational state? Doesn't matter...whatever "control" I do or do not exert, it's still my responsibility. I blow up at my wife over something trivial because I'm in a manic state because of too much work and no sleep (which happened last week), and my serotonin receptors or limbic system don't apologize to her. I apologize to her - no matter the reason, the responsibility is still mine.

 

So I suppose I'm saying that free will exists, but not as an absolute (which I think is a pretty reasonable statement when you think about it - all the free will in the world isn't going to help a parapelagic to run a marathon). Which, I think, is where people tend to trip up on suicidal causation - the idea of poor impulse control being causal does not absolve a suicide of responsibility. "Oh, he couldn't help it" is an explanation (part of one, actually - I don't think anyone here understood my earlier statement on impulse control), but not an excuse.

[Frit0 Bandit0]

There are certain things I don't have an opinion about. Britney Spears, for example...

 

 

I think I have free will. I also think I have "predetermined tendencies".

 

Let's see if I can explain it this way: As someone who's bipolar, and therefore occasionally acts "stupidly", there's always a question of how to accept responsibility for acting stupidly - basically, most people would ask is it neurochemistry I can't control, or behavior that I can control?

 

The problem is, that's the wrong question. In short, behavior is driven by a lot of things (broadly, what I call the biological, emotional, and cognitive environments), all of which interact, and none of which are completely under our control. Control - and free will, by extension - exists, but not as an absolute.

 

Rather, I find it more constructive to phrase the question in terms of responsibility: is my neurochemistry responsible for my behaviors, or my emotional state, or my rational state? Doesn't matter...whatever "control" I do or do not exert, it's still my responsibility. I blow up at my wife over something trivial because I'm in a manic state because of too much work and no sleep (which happened last week), and my serotonin receptors or limbic system don't apologize to her. I apologize to her - no matter the reason, the responsibility is still mine.

 

So I suppose I'm saying that free will exists, but not as an absolute (which I think is a pretty reasonable statement when you think about it - all the free will in the world isn't going to help a parapelagic to run a marathon). Which, I think, is where people tend to trip up on suicidal causation - the idea of poor impulse control being causal does not absolve a suicide of responsibility. "Oh, he couldn't help it" is an explanation (part of one, actually - I don't think anyone here understood my earlier statement on impulse control), but not an excuse.

 

 

good comment, very interestingly put

[Clip Smith]

"If DC Tom waves to the bears as he leaves the zoo.....does that make him...bipolar?"

 

"Johnny Cochran one choked on some lumpy mashed potatoes at KFC and then tried to take them to court......They say it was a case of attempted...suicide."