jahnyc Posted December 5, 2009 Share Posted December 5, 2009 The biggest mystery to me is whether some of our recent high draft picks have failed to develop because they do not have the ability or because of poor coaching (or a combination of both). I also wonder whether a new head coach, coaching staff and schemes will result in significant improvement in the play of these players. Clearly, Whitner, McCargo, Lynch, Ellis, Poz, Hardy, Maybin, Edwards, McKelvin have underachieved, in part, for some, because of injuries. That would be a lot of misses for high picks, and I must assume that at least part of the problem is coaching or scheme. If not, then we have one of the worst track records for drafting over the last five years, because the Bills are receiving virtually no producion from any of their recent top picks in the draft. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Special K Posted December 5, 2009 Share Posted December 5, 2009 If not, then we have one of the worst track records for drafting over the last five years, because the Bills are receiving virtually no producion from any of their recent top picks in the draft. Five years????? It's more than 5 my friend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jahnyc Posted December 5, 2009 Author Share Posted December 5, 2009 Maybe, and I don't recall all of our picks going back further, but I would argue that Winfield, Schobel, Kelsay, Denney, Reed, Clements, McGee and Travis Henry were more productive players, at least for some period of time. Of course the drafts featuring Parrish and Flowers as our top picks were total disasters. Of course there is also the Mike Williams pick ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nanker Posted December 5, 2009 Share Posted December 5, 2009 Maybe, and I don't recall all of our picks going back further. Research Linky for those in need. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jahnyc Posted December 5, 2009 Author Share Posted December 5, 2009 Thanks for the link. Very helpful. So from the 2005 and 2004 drafts, only Parrish and Evans are still with Bills. In fact, those drafts are so bad that the only other player still in the NFL is Eric King (I think he plays for the Titans). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsVet Posted December 5, 2009 Share Posted December 5, 2009 TD's 04-05 drafts are still setting this team back, but it's the combination of the 06-08 drafts that put this team where it currently is. The book's been written on the 06-07 classes, but it's a not encouraging that Hardy and Ellis aren't even dressing this season. Everything goes back to the team using so many picks on non-lineman in the 1st-3rd rounds during those years. They've used too many resources at the skill positions. Their OL and DL is going to need a lot of attention over the next 1-2 years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLZFAN4LIFE Posted December 5, 2009 Share Posted December 5, 2009 TD's 04-05 drafts are still setting this team back, but it's the combination of the 06-08 drafts that put this team where it currently is. The book's been written on the 06-07 classes, but it's a not encouraging that Hardy and Ellis aren't even dressing this season. Everything goes back to the team using so many picks on non-lineman in the 1st-3rd rounds during those years. They've used too many resources at the skill positions. Their OL and DL is going to need a lot of attention over the next 1-2 years. Exactly. Way to build a team backwards! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarthICE Posted December 5, 2009 Share Posted December 5, 2009 Look at who has picked them. I mean all the way back to Marv it has been an absolute cluster !@#$ with draft picks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jahnyc Posted December 5, 2009 Author Share Posted December 5, 2009 Agreed. When they did draft o-line and d-line, they made two of the worst picks in the last 10 years: Mike Williams and John McCargo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCbillsfan Posted December 5, 2009 Share Posted December 5, 2009 The biggest mystery to me is whether some of our recent high draft picks have failed to develop because they do not have the ability or because of poor coaching (or a combination of both). I also wonder whether a new head coach, coaching staff and schemes will result in significant improvement in the play of these players. Clearly, Whitner, McCargo, Lynch, Ellis, Poz, Hardy, Maybin, Edwards, McKelvin have underachieved, in part, for some, because of injuries. That would be a lot of misses for high picks, and I must assume that at least part of the problem is coaching or scheme. If not, then we have one of the worst track records for drafting over the last five years, because the Bills are receiving virtually no producion from any of their recent top picks in the draft. Throw out the injury part. The Bills do a horrible job at evaluating talent and where should players be taken in the draft. The Bills reach too much in the draft, bypass more talented players for lesser players, and trade up too much for a guy who is not worth it. Talent is the culprit for the Bills problems which includes the Head Coach. I'm still holding out hope for McKelvin and I think Wood will be a pretty good pro. They draft projects like Maybin instead of taking a LT like Michael Oher who is starting this year Draft guys like McGahee who was hurt plus we didn't need him because we had Travis Henry. Reach for a guy like Whitner with the 8th overall pick who the consensus said he was a late first rounder while Ngata a huge DT was still on the board They draft Mike Williams 4th overall who was a huge bust while McKinnie taken 7th overall is a starting LT for the Vikings. McKinnie apparently was a concern because of his character. There are more examples of draft blunders. They trade up to get McCargo and Poz. Two huge mistakes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray Posted December 5, 2009 Share Posted December 5, 2009 McKelvin was really on his way to being a playmaker until injured. Poz is good value for a second round pick. I know people on this board seem to hound him incessantly but listening to people around the league they have a lot of respect for the guy and guys who know football and follow the Bills like Mark Gaughn will tell you he has had a very good year. Whitner is good but not good value at 8 and the Bills should have drafted Ngata with that pick, I think that was classic overthinking and over analyzing by everyone. The Bills needed a big DT and then pick Whitner who is a very good player but could have gotten him at 10 picks later. McCargo was a bad pick. Maybin is a project that has great ability but needs probably another two years to manifest himself as a number one pick.......not a luxury for a team with so many needs. J Byrd is great value!! I would like the Bills to not over think things. They are actually still paying for J Butler's last draft which is likely the worst in the last 12 years for the Bills. Then Donahoe and then Marv and now too early to judge the last two drafts. Marshawn was a pro bowler last season so it is tough to call him a bad player when he is judged to be one of the best in the league at his position. In sum, not nearly as bad as people make it out to be but even a couple different picks could have made a big impact (Ngata over Whitner for example). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Posted December 5, 2009 Share Posted December 5, 2009 Look at who has picked them. I mean all the way back to Marv it has been an absolute cluster !@#$ with draft picks. Not so fast, speedy. The information cometh from Tom Modrak. He is in charge of assembling the information and assimilating the draft board. Besides, blaming it on Marv would assume that our picks mattered pre- Levy. BTW- they didn't. Between 2000-2005, the Bills had 50 picks. 6 are still with the team. Modrak has been with the club for 8 seasons now. Sounds like Modrak is the problem... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fan in San Diego Posted December 5, 2009 Share Posted December 5, 2009 Not so fast, speedy. The information cometh from Tom Modrak. He is in charge of assembling the information and assimilating the draft board. Between 2000-2005, the Bills had 50 picks. 6 are still with the team. Modrak has been with the club for 8 seasons now. Sounds like Modrak is the problem... We have a winner! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nanker Posted December 5, 2009 Share Posted December 5, 2009 Not so fast, speedy. The information cometh from Tom Modrak. He is in charge of assembling the information and assimilating the draft board. Besides, blaming it on Marv would assume that our picks mattered pre- Levy. BTW- they didn't. Between 2000-2005, the Bills had 50 picks. 6 are still with the team. Modrak has been with the club for 8 seasons now. Sounds like Modrak is the problem... Modrak had a very good run at Philly. He is generally credited with building them back to respectability and he did it for the most part with big bodies. I think Donna-Ho was too enamored of his rep when he brought him on board. By that I mean Modrak lives in friggin' Florida. He commutes to his job. They should never have brought him on if he can't be eating the golumpkies day in and day out. I actually do think he finds and evaluates the players okay, but he's not the guy pulling the trigger on the deals. Ralph? Marv? Brandon? Jauron? The philosophy for building this team was to do it with small bodies... small slow bodies. I can't blame him entirely, but bottom line, I think he's just cashing a check. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spartacus Posted December 5, 2009 Share Posted December 5, 2009 Modrak had a very good run at Philly. He is generally credited with building them back to respectability and he did it for the most part with big bodies. I think Donna-Ho was too enamored of his rep when he brought him on board. By that I mean Modrak lives in friggin' Florida. He commutes to his job. They should never have brought him on if he can't be eating the golumpkies day in and day out. I actually do think he finds and evaluates the players okay, but he's not the guy pulling the trigger on the deals. Ralph? Marv? Brandon? Jauron? The philosophy for building this team was to do it with small bodies... small slow bodies. I can't blame him entirely, but bottom line, I think he's just cashing a check. the Inner Circle Jerk is as much responsible for the lack of talent as the inept evaluators. by design, there is not a single person making the picks, so that no single person can be held accountable for the craptacular product on the field. since the priority has been to maximize profits (at the expense of winning games) accountability in the front office would not be a good thing since it would compromie the inner circle with new blood. which would lead to a conclusion that the emperor was wearing no clothers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsVet Posted December 5, 2009 Share Posted December 5, 2009 Modrak had a very good run at Philly. He is generally credited with building them back to respectability and he did it for the most part with big bodies. I think Donna-Ho was too enamored of his rep when he brought him on board. By that I mean Modrak lives in friggin' Florida. He commutes to his job. They should never have brought him on if he can't be eating the golumpkies day in and day out. I actually do think he finds and evaluates the players okay, but he's not the guy pulling the trigger on the deals. Ralph? Marv? Brandon? Jauron? The philosophy for building this team was to do it with small bodies... small slow bodies. I can't blame him entirely, but bottom line, I think he's just cashing a check. IIRC, Tim Graham wrote an article earlier this year which showed most amateur scouting directors did not work out of the franchise's home town. I still think there needs to be a complete overhaul of tha front office, although the ambiguity of Buffalo's draft process makes it hard to point to one person. As has been mentioned before, Modrak and Guy merely provided TD information on personnel. They were fine with playing a supporting role. But then, when Levy came in to fashion "consensus" they weren't real desirous of helping make a decision but supply information as they had TD. There should be no doubt that the team needs a strong GM who doesn't receive interference and can pick their own amateur scouting director, pro personnel director, and HC. Any other way and we'll see the same product ad infinitum. Despite TD's failings, this is how most successful NFL teams work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Psaunders Posted December 5, 2009 Share Posted December 5, 2009 The biggest mystery to me is whether some of our recent high draft picks have failed to develop because they do not have the ability or because of poor coaching (or a combination of both). I also wonder whether a new head coach, coaching staff and schemes will result in significant improvement in the play of these players. Clearly, Whitner, McCargo, Lynch, Ellis, Poz, Hardy, Maybin, Edwards, McKelvin have underachieved, in part, for some, because of injuries. That would be a lot of misses for high picks, and I must assume that at least part of the problem is coaching or scheme. If not, then we have one of the worst track records for drafting over the last five years, because the Bills are receiving virtually no producion from any of their recent top picks in the draft. Seriously I'm sick of people like you saying how all you draft picks suck. How can you bring up McKelvin????????????? like really the guy has been pro for one year and broke his leg this year. Maybin is still a rookie lynch hasn;t had a line to run behind and when he does good he doesn't get the ball enough cough cough one carry after scoring a touchdown Thursday. All you people have to quit your b#tching and let them develop. Have you seen how the giants have developed their recievers????? Maningham and Smth were pretty quiet there first 2 years. Sure I'll give McCargo and Ellis but other wise seriously just stop posting this kind of stuff on the board it's just annoying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spartacus Posted December 5, 2009 Share Posted December 5, 2009 Seriously I'm sick of people like you saying how all you draft picks suck. How can you bring up McKelvin????????????? like really the guy has been pro for one year and broke his leg this year. Maybin is still a rookie lynch hasn;t had a line to run behind and when he does good he doesn't get the ball enough cough cough one carry after scoring a touchdown Thursday. All you people have to quit your b#tching and let them develop. Have you seen how the giants have developed their recievers????? Maningham and Smth were pretty quiet there first 2 years. Sure I'll give McCargo and Ellis but other wise seriously just stop posting this kind of stuff on the board it's just annoying. you are correct. these guys need tome to develop - another 5-10 years and they might be able to contribute at a rookie level. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jahnyc Posted December 5, 2009 Author Share Posted December 5, 2009 Sorry, but Jackson, an undrafted free agent, has outplayed Lynch behind the same o-line. I agree that it is way too early to call Maybin and McKelvin busts, but Maybin has done nothing this year (versus Orakpo who has contributed) and the secondary has looked better with Florence than it did with McKelvin. Regarding the Giants, Smith played well as a rookie and Manningham is only in his second year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsfaninFl Posted December 5, 2009 Share Posted December 5, 2009 McKelvin was really on his way to being a playmaker until injured. Poz is good value for a second round pick. I know people on this board seem to hound him incessantly but listening to people around the league they have a lot of respect for the guy and guys who know football and follow the Bills like Mark Gaughn will tell you he has had a very good year.Whitner is good but not good value at 8 and the Bills should have drafted Ngata with that pick, I think that was classic overthinking and over analyzing by everyone. The Bills needed a big DT and then pick Whitner who is a very good player but could have gotten him at 10 picks later. McCargo was a bad pick. Maybin is a project that has great ability but needs probably another two years to manifest himself as a number one pick.......not a luxury for a team with so many needs. J Byrd is great value!! I would like the Bills to not over think things. They are actually still paying for J Butler's last draft which is likely the worst in the last 12 years for the Bills. Then Donahoe and then Marv and now too early to judge the last two drafts. Marshawn was a pro bowler last season so it is tough to call him a bad player when he is judged to be one of the best in the league at his position. In sum, not nearly as bad as people make it out to be but even a couple different picks could have made a big impact (Ngata over Whitner for example). Keep in mind that Wilson has been meddling in the team's draft all these years since Polian left (which is why Polian was shown the door), except for the Tom Donahoe years. After firing Tom, Ralph made a point to say that he regretted giving Donahoe so much power and that it would never happen again. There's a strong clue regarding what is wrong with the system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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