(OT) U.S. Marine petition.

[Guest Idiot]

Well, that certainly explains why there are fewer than 2500 men accounted for to this point.  Apparently the other 300,000 residents of the city who "fled" were either women, children, or decrepit old men.  What a ratio!

 

Idiot.

123813[/snapback]

 

Here ya go Darin...

News story

 

moron

[Guest protector]

boy am i glad you are not protecting our country.

123826[/snapback]

Give me a f'ing break.

You still think that we were in any need of protection from Iraq?

[Fake-Fat Sunny]

Why must everything be over analyzed?

123735[/snapback]

 

I know I tend to over-analyze my government actions when there seems to be too ;ittle dissent and analysis going within my governmnt itself. I think one of the reasons why the USA has been so great has been its system of checks and balances which has produced better answers than any one party or individual can produce themselves.

 

I know I attend to worry when the 2 house of Congress and the Presidency are controlled by the same party be they Democrats or the GOP. I think this is an issue which cries out for analysis and discussion because the media (Fox, CNN or what have you) have also abandoned their role as the "fourth estate" which plays a watchdog role on all three branches of government.

 

Inaction is bad, but lack of debate discussion and analysis is worse because it leads to bad actions.

[Fake-Fat Sunny]

 

One more thing:  The Geneva Convention doesn't apply in the case of this Marine.  I can virtually guarantee if he is put before a court of his peers (and they have combat experience), he'll walk away unscathed.

123777[/snapback]

 

 

Exactly, it is in these situations where the terrorists have rejected the rule of law that we have to not follow the terrorists lead and assidously follow the rules of law. In fact, if your reading of what will happen is correct (and as I read the situation it probably is correct) then all the more reason to not pre-suppose what should happen based almost totally on our internet derived info.

 

The right thing to do here as best as I can tell is to sign petitions and advocate that a military court of justice consider the facts of this case and render a decision. Assming that the fourth estate of the media is doing its job and watching this case, we can reasonably assume a correct decision will be made and my bet it is like your's appears to be that this trooper will be exonerated.

 

The thing that is unfortunate from my perspective about this petition is that it seems to advocate abandoning the rule of law and review of this case.

[Fake-Fat Sunny]

Your "coalition" statement simply doesn't hold water.  We were never going to recruit Russia, France, or China into the coalition fold.  Those countries were engaged in a multibillion dollar schemes to control most of Iraq's oil. 

 

Lukoil (Russia) and two Russian government agencies had a 23-year contract to develop Iraq's West Qurna oil field. By the terms of the contract, Lukoil gets half, Iraq one fourth, with the Russian government getting the remaining quarter of the oil field's 667 million tons of crude.  Because of UN sanctions, Lukoil was unable to pump.

 

In September 2001, Saddam announced ANOTHER $40 BILLION deal with the Soviets that would go into effect as soon as the sanctions were lifted.

 

In February 2002, Foriegn Minister Ivanov stated at the UN that sanctions against Iraq were counter productive. How very curious...

 

TotalFinaElf (France's largest oil company) had negotiated deals that would have given it control over 25 PERCENT of Iraq's oil reserves (which are known second only to Saudi Arabia).  All together, French companies had signed 798 contracts for parts and equipment for the Iraqi oil industry.

 

China had signed 227 UN-approved contracts to supply oil industry equipment and parts for Iraq with hopes of satisfying their ever growing need for petroleum.

 

Germany was awarded a contract that would allow them to buy Iraqi oil at $3.00 per barrell above cost (about $2.00 a bbl) in exchange for development and repair engineering.

 

Hard to believe money comes before doing the right thing, ain't it?

 

123777[/snapback]

 

Again I do not disagree at all with your estimate of the likelihood of our divilian leaders ever being able to build a coation like the one the first President Bush built for Operation Desert Storm.

 

Actually the real impossible part of building a coaltion for this pre-emptive war compared to that reactive war is that the Saudis and many Arab countries were full participants in Operation Desert Storm because they feared that a Saddam with control of Kuwait's oil would soon be able to turn his sites on them.

 

Middle-eastern Arab fear of Saddam got them to join that coalition with troops on the ground though it was still US troops who risked their lives and carried the miltary water with troops like the Kuwaitis ushered in for key roles for symbolism and for show after it was US troops who really were at greatest physical riak.

 

The miost substantial role played by the Middle-Eastern Arab countries was that led by Saudi Arabia they paid for 90% of the costs for the oil and fuel necessary to transport tons of troops and materials from the US to the Mideast.

 

Unfortunately, by building today's multi-lateral coalition which has involved far less taking on risk and far less financial support from other countries than the Operation Desert Storm Coalition there are real world implications:

 

1. We have to carry the major load of the post-war occupation and nation-building by ourselves essentially) our junior partners the Brits being the major exception). In order to do this well enough our xivilian leaders should have allocated far more US troops (military leaders have publicly estimated that a force of 300K-400K would be necessary based on the Kosovo experience).

2. Such large troop expenditures are quite difficult to maintain or even to create unless out country were willing to pay far higher taxes to attract far more troops or institute a draft.

 

I think the guiding thinking on this issue should have been Colin Powell thought that the rule is if you break it you own it. The first President Bush made a correct decision not to do what would have been a fairly easy thing for our trioops to do of continuing their advance on to Baghdad in the early 90 because we were not prepared to occupy this country without the support of the Saudi et al.

 

The second President Bush made a decision and was re-elected because of or in spite of having our troops take on this task without the sacrifice of those in the homeland in the form of higher taxes to increase our troop size to adequate levels so situations like the one this unfortunate trooper faced for us.

 

I do no disagree with you at all that it was impossible to expect US civilian leaders to get shared contributions from our European allies, or greater import to the task we have asked out troops to take on, I also do not expect that they could obtain the support of Arab allies.

 

All I argue in that in the face of these impossible coalition tasks, our civiilian leaders owed to the troops to ask for more sacrifice from those of us in the homeland to pay higher taxes for more troops so we could hold ground we took, for bullet-proof vest and other items to keep them safe.

 

If our civilian leaders were unwilling to ask America to share the sacrifices of its troops because raising taxes would have cost them the election they we should not have launched a pre-emptive war.

 

The results of not going to war may have been bad, but they would have been better than this outcome as best as I can tell where our troops are ordered to take mosques they do not have the troops to hold. This enemy combatant was killed because our leaders have not supplied our troops with the support they deserve.

[Alaska Darin]

Again I do not disagree at all with your estimate of the likelihood of our divilian leaders ever being able to build a coation like the one the first President Bush built for Operation Desert Storm.

 

Actually the real impossible part of building a coaltion for this pre-emptive war compared to that reactive war is that the Saudis and many Arab countries were full participants in Operation Desert Storm because they feared that a Saddam with control of Kuwait's oil would soon be able to turn his sites on them. 

 

Middle-eastern Arab fear of Saddam got them to join that coalition with troops on the ground though it was still US troops who risked their lives and carried the miltary water with troops like the Kuwaitis ushered in for key roles for symbolism and for show after it was US troops who really were at greatest physical riak.

 

The miost substantial role played by the Middle-Eastern Arab countries was that led by Saudi Arabia they paid for 90% of the costs for the oil and fuel necessary to transport tons of troops and materials from the US to the Mideast.

 

Unfortunately, by building today's multi-lateral coalition which has involved far less taking on risk and far less financial support from other countries than the Operation Desert Storm Coalition there are real world implications:

 

1.  We have to carry the major load of the post-war occupation and nation-building by ourselves essentially) our junior partners the Brits being the major exception).  In order to do this well enough our xivilian leaders should have allocated far more US troops (military leaders have publicly estimated that a force of 300K-400K would be necessary based on the Kosovo experience).

2. Such large troop expenditures are quite difficult to maintain or even to create unless out country were willing to pay far higher taxes to attract far more troops or institute a draft.

 

I think the guiding thinking on this issue should have been Colin Powell thought that the rule is if you break it you own it.  The first President Bush made a correct decision not to do what would have been a fairly easy thing for our trioops to do of continuing their advance on to Baghdad in the early 90 because we were not prepared to occupy this country without the support of the Saudi et al.

 

The second President Bush made a decision and was re-elected because of or in spite of having our troops take on this task without the sacrifice of those in the homeland in the form of higher taxes to increase our troop size to adequate levels so situations like the one this unfortunate trooper faced for us.

 

I do no disagree with you at all that it was impossible to expect US civilian leaders to get shared contributions from our European allies, or greater import to the task we have asked out troops to take on, I also do not expect that they could obtain the support of Arab allies.

 

All I argue in that in the face of these impossible coalition tasks, our civiilian leaders owed to the troops to ask for more sacrifice from those of us in the homeland to pay higher taxes for more troops so we could hold ground we took, for bullet-proof vest and other items to keep them safe.

 

If our civilian leaders were unwilling to ask America to share the sacrifices of its troops because raising taxes would have cost them the election they we should not have launched a pre-emptive war.

 

The results of not going to war may have been bad, but they would have been better than this outcome as best as I can tell where our troops are ordered to take mosques they do not have the troops to hold.  This enemy combatant was killed because our leaders have not supplied our troops with the support they deserve.

123915[/snapback]

I really don't want to go into a long diatribe on this subject (mostly because it's been covered ad nauseum on PPP by some very smart and experienced people) so here it is short and sweet:

 

1. The military machine has been broken for a long time. Too many chiefs, not enough indians. Lots of bureacracy, not enough operators. The current administration has begun tearing down some of this but it's an arduous process. We don't need a draft to fix it.

 

2. I agree that the average citizen hasn't been asked to do enough. Mostly because they wouldn't be willing. We just don't have the stomach to stop the capitalist orgy anymore.

 

3. Without knowing the facts of this, I won't say this terrorist was killed because there weren't enough troops. Also, I have yet to be involved in any military endeavor where the immediate answer to why something didn't right wasn't: "because we didn't have enough people." It's also usually not very truthful.

[JarHeadJim]

Or what? You'll shoot me?

123603[/snapback]

 

Yes I will (kidding)

[Fake-Fat Sunny]

3.  Without knowing the facts of this,

123924[/snapback]

 

 

No need for me to go into another long diatribe either, though the excuse this thread has provided has allowed me to think through the issues I really have no conclusive answer to. I will only reply to the section of your post sbove that in the face of refusal to abide by any laws by the terrorists it becomes evem ,more important for Americans to support the applicstion and rule of law. I agree with the things the petition says but I will not sign it because it presupposes an outcome with me knowing the facts I can glean from the internet and YV (to very unreliable sources of fact). I trust annd believe in my government enough to want my troops to enter into the court of miltary justice where fates of individuals should be determined by their collection of facts under the law.

[JarHeadJim]

A young Marine and his cover man cautiously enter a room just recently

 

> filled with insurgents armed with Ak-47's and RPG's. There are three

> dead, another wailing in pain. The insurgent can be heard saying,

> "Mister, mister! Diktoor, diktoor(doctor)!" He is badly wounded, lying

 

> in a pool of his own blood. The Marine and his cover man slowly walk

> toward the injured man, scanning to make sure no enemies come from

> behind. In a split second, the pressure in the room greatly exceeds

> that of the outside, and the concussion seems to be felt before the

> blast is heard. Marines outside rush to the room, and look in horror

> as the dust gradually settles. The result is a room filled with the

> barely recognizable remains of the deceased, caused by an insurgent

> setting off several pounds of

explosives.

> The Marines' remains are gathered by teary eyed

> comrades, brothers in arms, and shipped home in a box. The families

> can

only

> mourn over a casket and a picture of their loved one, a life cut short

 

> by someone who hid behind a white flag. But no one hears these

> stories,

except

> those who have lived to carry remains of a friend, and the families

> who loved the dead. No one hears this, so no one cares.

>

> This is the story everyone hears:

>

> A young Marine and his fire team cautiously enter a room just recently

 

> filled with insurgents armed with AK-47's and RPG's. There are three

> dead, another wailing in pain. The insugent can be heard saying,

> "Mister,mister! Diktoor, diktoor(doctor)!" He is badly

> wounded.Suddenly, he pulls from

under

> his bloody clothes a grenade, without the pin. The explosion rocks the

room,

> killing one Marine, wounding the others. The young Marine catches

> shrapnel in the face. The next day, same Marine, same type of

> situation, a different story. The young Marine and his cover man enter

 

> a room with two wounded insurgents.

One

> lies on the floor in puddle of blood, another against the

> wall. A reporter and his camera survey the wreckage inside, and in the

> background can be heard the voice of a Marine, "He's moving, he's

moving!"

> The pop of a rifle is heard, and the insurgent against the wall is now

dead.

>

> Minutes, hours later, the scene is aired on national television, and

> the Marine is being held for commiting a war crime. Unlawful killing.

>

> And now, another Marine has the possibility of being burned at the

> stake

for

> protecting the life of his

> brethren. His family now wrings their hands in grief, tears streaming

> down their face. Brother, should I have been in your boots, i too

> would have done the same.

>

> For those of you who don't know, we Marines, Band of Brothers,

> Jarheads, Leathernecks, etc., do not fight because we think it is

> right, or think it is wrong. We are here for the man to our left, and

> the man to our right. We choose to give our lives so that the man or

> woman next to us can go home and see their husbands, wives, children,

> friends and families.

>

> For those of you who sit on your couches in front of your television,

> and choose to condemn this man's actions, I have but one thing to say

> to you. Get out of you recliner, lace up my boots, pick up a rifle,

> leave your family behind and join me. See what I've seen, walk where I

 

> have walked. To those of you who support us, my sincerest gratitude.

> You keep

us

> alive.

>

> I am a Marine currently doing his second tour in Iraq. These are my

opinions

> and mine alone. They do not represent those of the Marine Corps or of

> the

US

> military, or any other.

>

> Sincerely,

>

> LCPL Schmidt

> USMC

[pdh1]

Yeah let's all support War Crimes!  It's becoming the American way!

 

Now, be a "Good German" and sign the damn petition!

123698[/snapback]

 

"War Crimes"? Yeah, OK.

 

Please go to this link to view "real" war crimes:

http://www.ogrish.com/view_attachment.php?id=22036

[Guest Guest]

Rhetorical question....

 

Are you over analyizing the question because the soldier shot the terrorist or because you disagree with the "crock of crap" war.

 

Remember its rhetorical....

 

 

YOU may say that this is being "OVER analyed" due to the fact that you may have a LOW capacity to think about a situation.

I, on the other hand think that this should be "analyzed".

 

This war is a crock of crap and it's just gonna get worse and worse.

123758[/snapback]

[erynthered]

A young Marine and his cover man cautiously enter a room just recently

 

> filled with insurgents armed with Ak-47's and RPG's. There are three

> dead, another wailing in pain. The insurgent can be heard saying,

> "Mister, mister! Diktoor, diktoor(doctor)!" He is badly wounded, lying

 

> in a pool of his own blood. The Marine and his cover man slowly walk

> toward the injured man, scanning to make sure no enemies come from

> behind. In a split second, the pressure in the room greatly exceeds

> that of the outside, and the concussion seems to be felt before the

> blast is heard. Marines outside rush to the room, and look in horror

> as the dust gradually settles. The result is a room filled with the

> barely recognizable remains of the deceased, caused by an insurgent

> setting off several pounds of

explosives.

> The Marines' remains are gathered by teary eyed

> comrades, brothers in arms, and shipped home in a box. The families

> can

only

> mourn over a casket and a picture of their loved one, a life cut short

 

> by someone who hid behind a white flag. But no one hears these

> stories,

except

> those who have lived to carry remains of a friend, and the families

> who loved the dead. No one hears this, so no one cares.

>

> This is the story everyone hears:

>

> A young Marine and his fire team cautiously enter a room just recently

 

> filled with insurgents armed with AK-47's and RPG's. There are three

> dead, another wailing in pain. The insugent can be heard saying,

> "Mister,mister! Diktoor, diktoor(doctor)!" He is badly

> wounded.Suddenly, he pulls from

under

> his bloody clothes a grenade, without the pin. The explosion rocks the

room,

> killing one Marine, wounding the others. The young Marine catches

> shrapnel in the face. The next day, same Marine, same type of

> situation, a different story. The young Marine and his cover man enter

 

> a room with two wounded insurgents.

One

> lies on the floor in puddle of blood, another against the

> wall. A reporter and his camera survey the wreckage inside, and in the

> background can be heard the voice of a Marine, "He's moving, he's

moving!"

> The pop of a rifle is heard, and the insurgent against the wall is now

dead.

>

> Minutes, hours later, the scene is aired on national television, and

> the Marine is being held for commiting a war crime. Unlawful killing.

>

> And now, another Marine has the possibility of being burned at the

> stake

for

> protecting the life of his

> brethren. His family now wrings their hands in grief, tears streaming

> down their face. Brother, should I have been in your boots, i too

> would have done the same.

>

> For those of you who don't know, we Marines, Band of Brothers,

> Jarheads, Leathernecks, etc., do not fight because we think it is

> right, or think it is wrong. We are here for the man to our left, and

> the man to our right. We choose to give our lives so that the man or

> woman next to us can go home and see their husbands, wives, children,

> friends and families.

>

> For those of you who sit on your couches in front of your television,

> and choose to condemn this man's actions, I have but one thing to say

> to you. Get out of you recliner, lace up my boots, pick up a rifle,

> leave your family behind and join me. See what I've seen, walk where I

 

> have walked. To those of you who support us, my sincerest gratitude.

> You keep

us

> alive.

>

> I am a Marine currently doing his second tour in Iraq. These are my

opinions

> and mine alone. They do not represent those of the Marine Corps or of

> the

US

> military, or any other.

>

> Sincerely,

>

> LCPL Schmidt

> USMC

124168[/snapback]

 

 

The idiots you're responding to will never make a difference, you did, and still do. Thank you for your service.

 

 

"Some people spend an entire lifetime time wondering if they made a difference. The Marines don't have that problem" President Ronald Reagan

 

 

Your sig say's it all.

[Guest Guest]

I never thought news reporters should be this close to the action. Bad things happen in war. That is a fact. The news never seems to get the whole story or just doesn't care to. We never find out the truth, we only find out what the news agencies agendas want to show us.

[djh]

 

I signed....thought it was a wonderful idea.

 

 

But..................I was kinda pissed when I received a confirmation email asking for $1.00. I shouldn't be negative, but I hate when someone profits from something like this. Anyways, how much does it cost to keep up a website $8.00 a month. The math is currently at $35,000 if everyone paid $1.

[Pete]

I am in. Fug these idiots that are backseat soldiers! Get a clue morons! Hey idiots- put yourself in that warriors shoes for one second. God Bless our soldiers and Godspeed!

[Dan III]

He probably tried.

Did you know that before the Fullujah assault... they only let women and children leave the town?  All men between 15 and 55 had to stay within the city.

Liberation me f'ing ass.

123804[/snapback]

Hey Bad Things, did you forget your password? Would you prefer being called Idiot American, Idiot or wrong???

[ExiledInIllinois]

No need for me to go into another long diatribe either, though the excuse this thread has provided has allowed me to think through the issues I really have no conclusive answer to.  I will only reply to the section of your post sbove that in the face of refusal to abide by any laws by the terrorists it becomes evem ,more important for Americans to support the applicstion and rule of law.  I agree with the things the petition says but I will not sign it because it presupposes an outcome with me knowing the facts I can glean from the internet and YV (to very unreliable sources of fact).  I trust annd believe in my government enough to want my troops to enter into the court of miltary justice where fates of individuals should be determined by their collection of facts under the law.

124057[/snapback]

 

Clap, Clap!

 

[Spiderweb]

Your "coalition" statement simply doesn't hold water.  We were never going to recruit Russia, France, or China into the coalition fold.  Those countries were engaged in a multibillion dollar schemes to control most of Iraq's oil. 

 

Lukoil (Russia) and two Russian government agencies had a 23-year contract to develop Iraq's West Qurna oil field. By the terms of the contract, Lukoil gets half, Iraq one fourth, with the Russian government getting the remaining quarter of the oil field's 667 million tons of crude.  Because of UN sanctions, Lukoil was unable to pump.

 

In September 2001, Saddam announced ANOTHER $40 BILLION deal with the Soviets that would go into effect as soon as the sanctions were lifted.

 

In February 2002, Foriegn Minister Ivanov stated at the UN that sanctions against Iraq were counter productive. How very curious...

 

TotalFinaElf (France's largest oil company) had negotiated deals that would have given it control over 25 PERCENT of Iraq's oil reserves (which are known second only to Saudi Arabia).  All together, French companies had signed 798 contracts for parts and equipment for the Iraqi oil industry.

 

China had signed 227 UN-approved contracts to supply oil industry equipment and parts for Iraq with hopes of satisfying their ever growing need for petroleum.

 

Germany was awarded a contract that would allow them to buy Iraqi oil at $3.00 per barrell above cost (about $2.00 a bbl) in exchange for development and repair engineering.

 

Hard to believe money comes before doing the right thing, ain't it?

 

One more thing:  The Geneva Convention doesn't apply in the case of this Marine.  I can virtually guarantee if he is put before a court of his peers (and they have combat experience), he'll walk away unscathed.

123777[/snapback]

 

 

While I disagree with the war in Iraq, I couldn't agree with your analysis more. I had made similar points with Olivier in France last year, but not anywhere as concise and direct as you just did. Of course, Olivier said I was wrong.

 

Excellent post AD, simply excellent.

[Mark VI]

Your "coalition" statement simply doesn't hold water.  We were never going to recruit Russia, France, or China into the coalition fold.  Those countries were engaged in a multibillion dollar schemes to control most of Iraq's oil. 

 

Lukoil (Russia) and two Russian government agencies had a 23-year contract to develop Iraq's West Qurna oil field. By the terms of the contract, Lukoil gets half, Iraq one fourth, with the Russian government getting the remaining quarter of the oil field's 667 million tons of crude.  Because of UN sanctions, Lukoil was unable to pump.

 

In September 2001, Saddam announced ANOTHER $40 BILLION deal with the Soviets that would go into effect as soon as the sanctions were lifted.

 

In February 2002, Foriegn Minister Ivanov stated at the UN that sanctions against Iraq were counter productive. How very curious...

 

TotalFinaElf (France's largest oil company) had negotiated deals that would have given it control over 25 PERCENT of Iraq's oil reserves (which are known second only to Saudi Arabia).  All together, French companies had signed 798 contracts for parts and equipment for the Iraqi oil industry.

 

China had signed 227 UN-approved contracts to supply oil industry equipment and parts for Iraq with hopes of satisfying their ever growing need for petroleum.

 

Germany was awarded a contract that would allow them to buy Iraqi oil at $3.00 per barrell above cost (about $2.00 a bbl) in exchange for development and repair engineering.

 

Hard to believe money comes before doing the right thing, ain't it?

 

One more thing:  The Geneva Convention doesn't apply in the case of this Marine.  I can virtually guarantee if he is put before a court of his peers (and they have combat experience), he'll walk away unscathed.

123777[/snapback]

 

In your honor, I will now play " Stop Making Sense " by the Talking Heads.

 

Well stated, AD. The real reason for many countries opposition to the war is purely financial , without any care for human interests. Funny how many of these same countries are the biggest criers in the UN. Bush makes his mistakes but I have no problem with him flicking the middle finger at the thieves in the UN. What a useless organization of dishonorable, greedy nations. After reading testomony in the " Oil for Food " fiasco, there is no doubt the UN exists only in theory rather than actual practice. They care about only their self interests and will steal any $$ they can get their hands on. The UN has ZERO credibility.

[Tux of Borg]

The rules of war... Rules that only Americans are supposed to follow. Ask any ranger that jumped into Panama, did the enemy wait until they landed to open fire. After all, its against the rules of war to fire on an airborne trooper while they are parachuting in. The same rules that say in an ambush, you can't "double tap" a person after you cross that road. Its hard for me to find fault in a solider while in a combat zone, fighting an enemy wearing civilian clothes. With the added stress of having to worry about civilians walking up to them and blowing themselves up. Yeah the guy !@#$ed up... I doubt if it was premeditated. War isn't pretty, get over it.