Dan Posted November 30, 2009 Author Posted November 30, 2009 Apparently you don't watch the games or know nothing about football. Here are the rushing stats for the Bills this year: 1. 73 2. 57 3. The game Whitner got hurt early: 222 4. 250 5. 171 6. 318 7.116 8. 182 9.168 Whitner returns for game 10 10. 102 11. 157 In other words, watch the games. The reason we were decent early is because Whitner and Scott closed quick and made stops close to the LOS. As soon as Whitner and then Scott were out, 2 yard gains became 7-8 yard gains. I love what Byrd brings and the intensity of Wilson, but Whitner was our MVP early, and losing him killed our defense. He was our best player on defense today, although Florence made the big plays. Thank you for posting that! I had looked up those numbers and almost made an identical post in the "bash Whitner" post back on Wed or Thurs. But decided not to, because what would it have mattered. But, I'm glad to see him have a good day today. I know Whitner is everyone's favorite player to bash because he was drafted #8. But the reality is, Whitner is a solid player. I'm not saying he's our best defender. All I'm saying is the guy consistently plays hard and plays the run good. You can draw a clear line to the games he's missed this season to our worst run defense games. He was back playing most of the game today and it showed. What people need to realize is that the Bills decided to go with a soft Tampa 2 defense, ala the Colts. Not a hard hitting run stuffign D like, ala the Ravens. As a result they drafted Whitner not Ngata. It's as simple as that. If you don't like it, blame the soon to be defunct coaching staff not the players that are out there playing their off.
Kelly the Dog Posted November 30, 2009 Posted November 30, 2009 What was our draft position? Was it #8? Or #11? It would seem evident to one who isn't hell bent on kissing Marv Levy's ass that the disgraceful first round picks listed above coincided with the downfall of the Bills. They didn't make plans to replace our players that truly were stars. They let good ol' Marv bring in the dbs and take the team down. Did you like his repeat performance in 06? You must have. Do you think it was a good move to draft Whitner in 06 while turning down numerous trade offers? Do you think that the way to rebuild a team begins with the secondary? Are you happy about Youboty and Ko Simpson? Never mind. Why not compose a love sonnet to Marv Levy. It started before we reached the Super Bowl. Are you insane? 1990 was our first year in the bowl. The point isnt that drafting DBs gets you to the Super Bowl, the point is that just drafting OL in #1 doesnt mean greatness and just drafting DBs #1 doesnt mean sucktitude. But you have been complaining that we have been drafting DBs #1 as evidence we don't know what we are doing but doing our best years, 4 of 5 years we drafted a DB #1, regardless of position in the draft. Not to mention, of course, that it was Bill Polian and John Butler who were making those choices, not Marv levy. Those two clearly suck at judging talent.
Bill from NYC Posted November 30, 2009 Posted November 30, 2009 It started before we reached the Super Bowl. Are you insane? 1990 was our first year in the bowl. The point isnt that drafting DBs gets you to the Super Bowl, the point is that just drafting OL in #1 doesnt mean greatness and just drafting DBs #1 doesnt mean sucktitude. But you have been complaining that we have been drafting DBs #1 as evidence we don't know what we are doing but doing our best years, 4 of 5 years we drafted a DB #1, regardless of position in the draft. If all of the primary pieces of a football team are in place, it would seem a good time to fortify the secondary. Even at that, you might not want to waste early first round picks. How did you like the 06 Marv Levy draft?
Kelly the Dog Posted November 30, 2009 Posted November 30, 2009 If all of the primary pieces of a football team are in place, it would seem a good time to fortify the secondary. Even at that, you might not want to waste early first round picks. How did you like the 06 Marv Levy draft? I don't think Levy made the picks.
Kelly the Dog Posted November 30, 2009 Posted November 30, 2009 If all of the primary pieces of a football team are in place, it would seem a good time to fortify the secondary. Even at that, you might not want to waste early first round picks. Our major weakness IMO on our Super Bowl teams was nose tackle. So why didnt we draft NTs? Because you can't just draft a position regardless of players available, and because DBs are just as important. Every team in the NFL, including the very best ones, seem to think so.
Dawgg Posted November 30, 2009 Posted November 30, 2009 Our major weakness IMO on our Super Bowl teams was nose tackle. So why didnt we draft NTs? Because you can't just draft a position regardless of players available, and because DBs are just as important. Every team in the NFL, including the very best ones, seem to think so. Whitner wasn't the best player available at #8 overall. He wasn't even the 10th best player available at #8 overall. Most NFL teams, including the very best ones, agreed, which is why the Bills were a laughingstock of the draft when they made that selection.
Kettle Creek Football Posted November 30, 2009 Posted November 30, 2009 Come on guys, you know you want to show Donte some lovin. He played a solid, all around game - got pressure on the QB, stopped some runs, covered slot receivers, got a good interception. The defense is better when he's on the field. I agree. I like Wilson and Scott, but I don't understand why the two full-time starters are not Whitner and Byrd?
BillsVet Posted November 30, 2009 Posted November 30, 2009 If all of the primary pieces of a football team are in place, it would seem a good time to fortify the secondary. Even at that, you might not want to waste early first round picks. How did you like the 06 Marv Levy draft? This is elementary football rebuilding. Parcells rebuilt with OL and DL size in multiple locales. Belichick used several top picks on OL and DL. Baltimore has used first rounders on DL and OL. The Giants have dedicated significant resources to DL and OL, as have Philly. Meanwhile, the Levy/Brandon led Bills drafted no less than 7 non-lineman in the first through third rounds of 06-08: Whitner, Youboty, Lynch, Posluszny, Edwards, McKelvin, and Hardy. Their only line picks did not dress today-Ellis and McCargo. It is for personal pride that many lingering fans are so vocal in their support for Marv's front office. They'll argue about individual players, and though it's not about the people selected, they point fingers accusing posters who didn't believe the Marv hype and strategy as haters. For the last time, this team is still in rebuilding mode. If Marv/Brandon were so successful, why is this team going on four seasons removed from the TD era and STILL not able to make the playoffs? Please explain. Someone will inevitably chime in and say I'm complaining despite the Bills winning. Well, it's nice to win, but reality says they're 4-7 with plenty of holes.
Kelly the Dog Posted November 30, 2009 Posted November 30, 2009 Whitner wasn't the best player available at #8 overall. He wasn't even the 10th best player available at #8 overall. Most NFL teams, including the very best ones, agreed, which is why the Bills were a laughingstock of the draft when they made that selection. Of the players drafted from #8 to say, #25 (just before McCargo), I would take Whitner over about 14 or 15 of the 17 players. That is a bust or laughingstock? Ngata is a very good player and the only clear mistake besides Davin Joseph. Cutler is pretty good but very erratic and an !@#$ coach-killer IMO. Ernie Sims is good. Santonio Holmes is pretty good but erratic. Cromartie is pretty good. Most of the players available and picked immediatelty after suck. 2-3 of the players picked before him suck.
Dan Posted November 30, 2009 Author Posted November 30, 2009 This is elementary football rebuilding. Parcells rebuilt with OL and DL size in multiple locales. Belichick used several top picks on OL and DL. Baltimore has used first rounders on DL and OL. The Giants have dedicated significant resources to DL and OL, as have Philly. Meanwhile, the Levy/Brandon led Bills drafted no less than 7 non-lineman in the first through third rounds of 06-08: Whitner, Youboty, Lynch, Posluszny, Edwards, McKelvin, and Hardy. Their only line picks did not dress today-Ellis and McCargo. It is for personal pride that many lingering fans are so vocal in their support for Marv's front office. They'll argue about individual players, and though it's not about the people selected, they point fingers accusing posters who didn't believe the Marv hype and strategy as haters. For the last time, this team is still in rebuilding mode. If Marv/Brandon were so successful, why is this team going on four seasons removed from the TD era and STILL not able to make the playoffs? Please explain. Someone will inevitably chime in and say I'm complaining despite the Bills winning. Well, it's nice to win, but reality says they're 4-7 with plenty of holes. With all due respect, I'm not sure anyone is saying that Marv and Brandon have been uber successful. Some of us are just trying to acknowledge that some of the players have played well. And Whitner, despite his draft spot, despite his detractors, played a good game today and has been a good player for this team since he was drafted. Not great, not future HOFer, not the best, but good none the less. To acknowledge that does not forgive the FO from all their mistakes over the last few years. It just gives a Bills' player a little credit for playing hard so we all have something to feel a little better about.
Beebe's Kid Posted November 30, 2009 Posted November 30, 2009 If I just read stat sheets and forum posts, and never watched a game, I would hate Whitner. I am not saying that is what is happening here. Whitner starts on almost any team he goes to. He definitely does not hurt our D by being on the field. I think the numbers would prove the opposite to be true. In regard to defending Marv...I have never really seen a strong defense of his being GM...it always made me sad, because it seemed like he only took the position to help out Mr. Wilson. I would guess that Mr. Wilson, who is from the depression era not the spend every nickle you have then buy it on credit era, was pinching pennies, but honestly felt that Marv could make decisions to help this team. I was reading the draft choices over the years all of the teams, and it is funny, because you could make this argument for any team. In fact you could make this argument with any draft class in any sport... It is not an exact science, but I think it is unfair to hate on DW because Levy drafted him. DW would start on almost any team in the NFL, I think he could be Pro Bowl material if he played all year. I also think that the 1.5 years Poz has been on the field, he has progressed nicely. I think Lynch is a great talent at back, and with a full season under a demanding coach he will produce numbers to prove this theory. I don't think the talent of these players is the problem. An effective coach will fire up players and make them play up to their potential. The Richard J Regime was not exactly motivational. We didn't get lucky against Miami today, we beat them. We did it with a lot of help from DW. This team shouldn't be 4-7, but they underachieved, because that was acceptable, DW no exception. After all it is hard to win in the NFL, that is true...but a good leader teaches you how to do that, prepares you for it, then goes through it with you. (see Fewell, Perry chest bump Owens, Terrell after a successful gutsy call, which his predecessor wouldn't have tried in 1.3 million years)
Orton's Arm Posted November 30, 2009 Posted November 30, 2009 Poz is decent. IMO, Stroud is our best and most important defensive player and Whitner is probably second, regardless of stats. Your obsession with DBs is completely unfounded. As I asked in another thread, what were our best years, and who did we draft? 1990 #1 James Williams DB. 1991 #1 Henry Jones DB. 1992 #1 John Fina OT. 1993 #1 Thomas Smith DB. 1994 #1 Jeff Burris DB. Most of those DBs were drafted after Butler took over from Polian. Butler wasn't as good a GM as Polian. Polian's teams were strong on both sides of the ball; whereas the Butler-led Bills typically had a good defense but a mediocre offense. The offensive line was typically below par, and Butler never did find a replacement for Kelly. As for the Super Bowl appearances themselves, I think we can all agree they had more to do with guys like Jim Kelly, Kent Hull, Jim Ritcher, Bruce Smith, Thurman Thomas, and Andre Reed, than they did with guys like James Williams. I'm not really sure what, if anything, would be gained by pointing out that we won more games the year we drafted James Williams than we did the year we drafted Bruce Smith. During the post-Polian era, the Bills developed an ugly habit of using first round picks on DBs, then letting them go first contract and out. Employing that strategy on any position would be a huge error. You don't see the Colts letting Peyton Manning go first contract and out, do you? First round picks should be used on long-term building blocks, not on quick, temporary fixes. If the Bills aren't willing to extend their first round CB success stories, they shouldn't use first round picks on them in the first place. (As an aside, McGee's extension was quite encouraging!) When you're in rebuilding mode, your bias should be for a quarterback first, your offensive and defensive lines second, most other positions third, and RBs dead last. Your rookie first round quarterback should be firmly seated on the bench--where he belongs--in part so that he doesn't get killed while you're rebuilding your offensive line. Let him take to the field his second year. The Whitner pick was a mistake on several levels. Whitner wasn't the best player available at #8; so choosing him hinted at a bias in favor of the defensive secondary. During rebuilding mode. On a team with no quarterback and gaping holes in its offensive line! Part of the blame for the Whitner pick belongs to Marv. I also suspect, but cannot prove, that Jauron wanted a good strong safety right away! for his Tampa 2 defense. More generally, I can't think of any first day draft picks during the Marv era who have lived up to the expectations associated with their draft positions.
BillsZubaz Posted November 30, 2009 Posted November 30, 2009 Eh. Doesn't matter. Half of this board wanted to cut him or bench him earlier in the week. Truth be told we have 3 solid safeties in Whitner, Byrd and Wilson. Plus Scott who has transitioned to a bit of a hybrid player.
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