Magox Posted November 14, 2009 Posted November 14, 2009 Yeah. Just like spending $2 trillion on a war based on lies....... http://costofwar.com/ you're only off by 200%, but I get it, you're trying to prove a point, carry on
Magox Posted November 14, 2009 Posted November 14, 2009 I am really worried. Ok, the national debt is somewhere around 11.4 trillion ($39,000 per man, woman, and child), and the federal deficit for 2009 alone is clocking in at 1.4 trillion. It is projected to grow worse each year--and that is before any additional stimulus programs, entitlement programs (healthcare) etc. See yesterday's testimony before congress: http://budget.senate.gov/democratic/testim...ny_11_10_09.pdf Folks, why are we completely incapable of doing anything about this train-wreck in waiting? There will come a day, and it is no longer very far away, when we will have only two options: default on our debt, or monetize it. Under the former option, the dollar loses its status as reserve currency, trillions get dumped wholesale by investors, and rampant inflation happens. Under the latter, we print money like mad to pay our debtors, and rampant inflation happens. Either way, catastrophe. I think this is the fundamental problem with our democracy: no elected official (whether Republican and Democrat) has the political will to do the unpopular thing of cutting spending and increase taxes to reduce the deficit (and ultimately the rate of growth of the national debt). You would be virtually unelectable after doing so. With rampant unemployment already happening, all we can think about is juicing the economy. Perhaps the day is already here. The Fed is running out of tricks in its bag. It can no longer lower interest rates further, so it has to resort to more extreme measures of buying up its own Treasury bonds. The fact that it has stopped reporting the M3 (measure of the dollars out there) suggests that inflation may be around the corner. I am sorry for ranting on. I am really really worried, and blame both Republicans and Democrats equally. Good to see people realize the problem that we are in. Right now, as we speak, BO is in Asia trying to assure the Asians that there investment with us is safe, and to keep investing more. Every day that passes, that argument becomes less credible, for crying out loud, Geithner was in China just a few months ago, and in a forum that consisted of Chinese students he told them that "Chinese assets are very safe" and they broke out laughing. The single biggest risk that our economy faces in the future is our deficits. Too many people fail to realize that if we don't bring down the deficit, that we WILL have another systemic breakdown, but this time it will be much worse. There is a reason why gold is at record highs, and it is of fear of the inevitable devaluation of the US dollar. When are secretary of treasury says "We support a Strong dollar', what he is doing is communicating to the Asians and other foreign debtholders, and telling them to keep buying our debt. Right now we have an $11.5 Trillion deficit and according to the rosy projections of the White House, it will increase by another $9 Trillion in the next 10 years (realistically another $12-$15 Trillion). Even if they are correct, our deficit will be over $20 Trillion 10 years from now, do you guys have any idea how much interest payments alone on $20 Trillion will be 10 years from now? It will be well over a Trillion a year, which is more than what we have spent on the entire Iraq and Afghanistan war COMBINED. Domestically speaking, our country is !@#$ed for the next 5 years, there is little hope that we will get below 6% unemployment, which means that our tax receipts will remain depressed for quite some time, and with the entitlement program that BO and crew are looking to pass (Health Reform) the deficit is sure to continue to keep rising, taxes will go up for small businesses and some individuals, and health premiums will be even higher than private premiums which means that it place more of a burden on the middle class and small businesses. And by the time Cap and Trade goes through, then our fate in this country for sure will be sealed. The last administration was abysmal when it came to controlling the deficit, with the added expense of the war, drug prescriptions legislation and the unnecessary TARP bailout he goes down in history as one of the least fiscally conservative presidents in US history. Bush was so unpopular, that people were desperate for change, any kind of change, and of course, change is what we got. But not the kind of change that people signed up for. He ran as moderate, and people got fooled when they voted for him. Now we have a president, that is going to go down in history as THE MOST FISCALLY IRRESPONSIBLE PRESIDENT IN US HISTORY. It is amateur hour at the W.H and we are all paying for it. I know many people believe if you do nothing, than that is the safest thing you can do, but by not converting your dollars into tangible things, that will end up being a very costly move. Prepare for Stagflation, slow domestic growth, weak dollar, increased exports with an "acceptable GDP", and high inflation.
Steve O Posted November 14, 2009 Posted November 14, 2009 I think this is the fundamental problem with our democracy: no elected official (whether Republican and Democrat) has the political will to do the unpopular thing of cutting spending and increase taxes to reduce the deficit (and ultimately the rate of growth of the national debt). You would be virtually unelectable after doing so. With rampant unemployment already happening, all we can think about is juicing the economy. Patterson is trying to do just this on a state level and we all know how popular he is...
drnykterstein Posted November 15, 2009 Posted November 15, 2009 How high was the debt just after the depression?
Tcali Posted November 15, 2009 Posted November 15, 2009 I am really worried. Ok, the national debt is somewhere around 11.4 trillion ($39,000 per man, woman, and child), and the federal deficit for 2009 alone is clocking in at 1.4 trillion. It is projected to grow worse each year--and that is before any additional stimulus programs, entitlement programs (healthcare) etc. See yesterday's testimony before congress: http://budget.senate.gov/democratic/testim...ny_11_10_09.pdf Folks, why are we completely incapable of doing anything about this train-wreck in waiting? There will come a day, and it is no longer very far away, when we will have only two options: default on our debt, or monetize it. Under the former option, the dollar loses its status as reserve currency, trillions get dumped wholesale by investors, and rampant inflation happens. Under the latter, we print money like mad to pay our debtors, and rampant inflation happens. Either way, catastrophe. I think this is the fundamental problem with our democracy: no elected official (whether Republican and Democrat) has the political will to do the unpopular thing of cutting spending and increase taxes to reduce the deficit (and ultimately the rate of growth of the national debt). You would be virtually unelectable after doing so. With rampant unemployment already happening, all we can think about is juicing the economy. Perhaps the day is already here. The Fed is running out of tricks in its bag. It can no longer lower interest rates further, so it has to resort to more extreme measures of buying up its own Treasury bonds. The fact that it has stopped reporting the M3 (measure of the dollars out there) suggests that inflation may be around the corner. I am sorry for ranting on. I am really really worried, and blame both Republicans and Democrats equally. govt health care will solve it
Nanker Posted November 15, 2009 Posted November 15, 2009 How high was the debt just after the depression? About 52% of GDP ShitBird. But it wasn't deficit spending that brought us out of the Great Depression. WWII did.
Tolstoy Posted November 15, 2009 Author Posted November 15, 2009 About 52% of GDP ShitBird. But it wasn't deficit spending that brought us out of the Great Depression. WWII did. Actually, Connor is asking about the national debt, which I think was about 120% of GDP in 1946 (all time high). I don't know what the deficit was in 1945 or 1946. Connor is attempting, I think, to make the point that deficit spending is ok. Perhaps he is reasoning thus: since the debt in 1946 was nearly twice as high in percentage of GDP in 1946 (120%) than it is today (64% of GDP), and that led to a tremendous postwar boom, we can expect only good things from our present deficits and national debt. Or, perhaps he is arguing (ala Krugman), that we actually need not less but more stimulus and spending (Krugman calls for massive deficit spending) at WWII levels in order to generate a resurgence of our economy. I am not an economist, but I'm not sure that is a bad thing, since a majority of them couldn't see the recent collapse coming, and therefore seem to be lost in their theories ( I myself am an academic of a different stripe, and know how easily that can happen!). However, I know that even the most Keynesian of economists don't support long-term deficit spending, especially when it is not invested in infrastructure, industry, and jobs. So, when the war machine was ramped up from 1940-1945, we had a short-term infusion of $ into factories and technological development, all of which paid off over the succeeding 25 years when Americans were an exporting nation ("Made in America" was actually common!). That ended in 1975. Now we are spending borrowed money on...buying new cars in the Cash for Clunkers program (most of which are foreign made cars!--so much for investment in American industry!), stimulus checks that get spent at Walmart on Chinese made goods (Smart! We borrow the money from the Chinese, and then promptly send it back to them after we buy their goods!), and of course everything else in our yearly budget that counts as pork, a list of absurdities I need not try to provide here. In other words, this deficit spending does not count as a short-term investment that stands a reasonable chance of payoff. We are not investing in new industry: we are buying our milk and toilet paper with borrowed money, on which we must pay interest. Is that defensible Connor? Is it sustainable?
Nanker Posted November 15, 2009 Posted November 15, 2009 Mods, can we take this to PPP where it belongs? Let's not scare the women and children with politico wrangling. WWII ended in 1945. The deficit was 52% of GDP in 1942 which is when America entered that war. Gratuitous leftist resource cited.
Tolstoy Posted November 15, 2009 Author Posted November 15, 2009 Mods, can we take this to PPP where it belongs?Let's not scare the women and children with politico wrangling. WWII ended in 1945. The deficit was 52% of GDP in 1942 which is when America entered that war. Gratuitous leftist resource cited. Are you confusing the national debt and the federal deficit? Both are relevant here, but I'm just wondering, so we don't speak past one another. BTW, what is PPP?
/dev/null Posted November 15, 2009 Posted November 15, 2009 BTW, what is PPP? TSW forum for discussing politics - PPP = Politics Polls and Pundits http://forums.twobillsdrive.com/index.php?showforum=14 Tho the last year or so Bishop Hedd has turned PPP into Plenty of Palin Posts
Magox Posted November 16, 2009 Posted November 16, 2009 TSW forum for discussing politics - PPP = Politics Polls and Punditshttp://forums.twobillsdrive.com/index.php?showforum=14 Tho the last year or so Bishop Hedd has turned PPP into Plenty of Palin Posts Recently, it's been transformed it into PLP Plenty of Levi Posts
BuffaloBill Posted November 16, 2009 Posted November 16, 2009 There isn't anything wrong with this country by getting control of the damn politicians. Voting EVERY incumbent out in the next 10 elections or so would probably be a good way to start. I tend to believe this is the only way the American voter will be heard above the noise that cash heavy lobbyists make.
ExiledInIllinois Posted November 17, 2009 Posted November 17, 2009 There isn't anything wrong with this country by getting control of the damn politicians. Voting EVERY incumbent out in the next 10 elections or so would probably be a good way to start. I agree with you Darin. Wouldn't it be easier to take all money out of the equation.
Acantha Posted November 17, 2009 Posted November 17, 2009 I agree with you Darin. Wouldn't it be easier to take all money out of the equation. Funny (in a horrifying kind of way) fact: If every bit of debt that was owed in the US dollar was paid off, there would be no dollars left.
IDBillzFan Posted November 18, 2009 Posted November 18, 2009 I am sorry for ranting on. I am really really worried, and blame both Republicans and Democrats equally. I will undoubtedly take crap from the liberals here, but if you can get past being called a "teabagger" by people who have no other answers, the reality is that the people protesting in Washington, at town halls, etc., have the makings of a true fight against what is happening right now. Again, you have to get past the liberal rhetoric, but these people are truly pissed off Americans. They're pissed at Republicans. They're pissed at Democrats. They're pissed at spending on ridiculous payoffs like the Recovery Act that has proven to be an epic failure, and pissed at embarrassing health care reform bills that do NOTHING to lower health care costs and improve services. These people -- who have been asleep at the wheel for years -- are suddenly seeing the writing on the wall, which is why their numbers are growing. I've attended a number of rallies, and I can assure you that these are truly people like us who are so pissed that they're actually taking the time to study what is happening, and coming to terms with the truth that this is not a Democratic thing or a Republican thing, but a Government thing which, in its current state, is working harder than ever to be more involved in the lives of everyday Americans. The more the people rely on the government, the less freedom we have. It's just that simple. And with one party in complete control of the government, it's no accident that this is happening at an unprecedented rate. I know. Nutjobs right? No one is taking our freedoms away, right? But ask yourself this: don't you find it interesting how freaking scary things are right now? Don't you find it scary that NO ONE in government is doing ANYTHING to try and fix things, but instead tell you "It's only going to get worse" as they begin taking steps to actually MAKE THINGS WORSE by actually suggesting yet ANOTHER stimulus to create jobs? MORE SPENDING? THAT'S THE ANSWER? If you find that interesting, then it's not a real leap of faith to suggest it's time to stand up. Time to get involved. Time to get into the fight. Time to take back your freedoms. There ARE things you can do. But if you sit back and keep doing what you're doing, you'll keep getting what you're getting. Remember the words of Thomas Jefferson: "When the people fear the government, there is tyranny. When the government fears the people, there is liberty."
MarkyMannn Posted November 18, 2009 Posted November 18, 2009 Nice write up LA. Stimulus and jobs, virtually all the jobs created were government. There is no growth there, just more taxes to support it. And as far as taxes, as a middle class guy in a Buffalo suburb, the only gov't services I get and need really are garbage pick-up and snow plowing. Everything else is BS Just had a company meeting this morning. Our medical is going up 20%, no raises for 4th of 5 years Lastly, F%$#@%$# Gov Paterson. The only people endorsing him is the CSEA
\GoBillsInDallas/ Posted November 20, 2009 Posted November 20, 2009 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7M9XoT5WsWE
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