Tommy Posted November 11, 2009 Posted November 11, 2009 What do you guys think about trying Bell at RT if we draft a top LT with our first pick? Move Wood to his natural position of C, and plug Butler back in at RG. Keep Levitre where he is. They wouldn't be great, but it could be serviceable for next year.
Thoner7 Posted November 11, 2009 Posted November 11, 2009 You draft for or trade for the franchise QB first, if you don't have one on your team. Look at all the succesfull teams -they have a franchise QB, Go right down the line: Colts: Peyton Manning. Bill Polians' first draft pick after taking over in Indy in 1998. Nice way to start, huh? Steelers: Big Ben: first round draft pick. (Taken the very pick before the Bills in 2004!) Bengals: Palmer: first round draft pick. Pats: Already had Bledsoe, their first round draft pick on the team, so they took a flyer on Brady in the 6th round. (Only the great teams are lucky, right?) Chargers: Rivers; first round draft pick, traded from the Giants during the draft for Eli. Broncos: Straight up trade for starting QB's to get Orton from Chicago, working out terrific, but they traded their own first round draft pick because he wanted out of town. Ravens: Flacco - first round draft pick. Cowboys: The Exception: Tony Romo - I don't even know what round he was drafted in, but I know he wasn't a number one pick for Dallas. Saints: Traded for Brees, a starting franchise-type QB having some success with San Diego, but became super human with the Saints offense since the trade. Brees was originally drafted at the top of the second round by SD. Falcons: First round draft pick - Matt Ryan. Vikings: Signed HOF legend Brett Favre out of his 9th retirement. Nice first half so far, but watch for the 40 year old to struggle as the season wears on, weren't the Jets 5-3 or 6-2 at the half way mark last year too?? Eagles: McNabb is still there 10 years later, a first round draft pick. Looks like young Kolb may be a keeper too. Giants: Eli - number one pick in the draft traded to the Giants for Rivers by SD. You get the QB first, then immediately start to build or improve his offensive line, that same off season. Remember the Buffalo Bills in 1985? 2-14 coming into the 1986 draft, with zero talent on either line to speak of, other then raw rookie Bruce Smith at DE. Bill Polian's first big contract he worked was for Jim Kelly. Once you have the young star QB you can win with for the folloiwng 10+ years, or once you have the free agent proven vet you can win with for the next 3+ years if you are already almost there, like the Vikings, then you build the line around him as soon as possible. Current non first round QBs who have had/are having success: Matt Hasselback* Kurt Warner** Mark Bulger Chad Henne T. Brady** Schaub Garuard Orton Cassel Romo Delhomme* Brees* * Led team to Super Bowl ** Won Superbowl Some of these guys had a couple of good years and fell off, but there were very good to great too. Recent 1st round Busts or somewhat busts Losman Quinn V.Young Russel Campbell Harrington Carr Leinart Alex Smith Some of these guys have kinda gotten the short end of the stick, but havent cemented themselves has great QBs either. The lists are equally long. The QB does not need to be a 1st rounder. The last thing we need is a huge reach for a QB in the first round - ie Losman.
flomoe Posted November 11, 2009 Posted November 11, 2009 Quarterback!!! Hand Down!!! If the Bills get a quality QB early in next years draft, the line inproves by default. Sure the line is a bit suspect but the Bills haven't put anything under center that would actually qualify as a NFL caliber Quarterback. The QB will make the running game look better too. Once teams realize that they can't put a vanilla defense out there to outsmart the opposing QB, they will finally be on the defensive against the Bills.
thebandit27 Posted November 11, 2009 Posted November 11, 2009 Current non first round QBs who have had/are having success:Matt Hasselback* Kurt Warner** Mark Bulger Chad Henne T. Brady** Schaub Garuard Orton Cassel Romo Delhomme* Brees* * Led team to Super Bowl ** Won Superbowl Some of these guys had a couple of good years and fell off, but there were very good to great too. Recent 1st round Busts or somewhat busts Losman Quinn V.Young Russel Campbell Harrington Carr Leinart Alex Smith Some of these guys have kinda gotten the short end of the stick, but havent cemented themselves has great QBs either. The lists are equally long. The QB does not need to be a 1st rounder. The last thing we need is a huge reach for a QB in the first round - ie Losman. I don't know if VJ's feelings on this subject are the same as my own, but I think the point is that it doesn't need to be a first round pick, but the QB is the key component and not the o-line. I won't go through all the #s again in this thread (anyone that wants to see my reasoning can simply click on my post history, they're in there plenty o times ), but a great QB will get a team places that a great OL may not be able to (2009 example: Pittsburgh vs. Tennessee).
Thoner7 Posted November 11, 2009 Posted November 11, 2009 I don't know if VJ's feelings on this subject are the same as my own, but I think the point is that it doesn't need to be a first round pick, but the QB is the key component and not the o-line. I won't go through all the #s again in this thread (anyone that wants to see my reasoning can simply click on my post history, they're in there plenty o times ), but a great QB will get a team places that a great OL may not be able to (2009 example: Pittsburgh vs. Tennessee). Ill admit the QB is the single most important position on a football team, but I would argue that the OL as a unit is more important to the team than the starting QB. Just different approaches to football, agree to disagree I guess.
AF88Bills Posted November 11, 2009 Posted November 11, 2009 I am of the belief that you need to build your team from the trenches out, but that being said, I'm not sold on Trent. If Trent continues to struggle, would you go with a top lineman for the Offensive Line, or do you go with a top QB like Bradford or McCoy? If you take the line and stick with Edwards or a FA the QB play may be awful next season, but the line would be improved, OR do you go top QB in the draft and worry about the line in the future? How can you not improve on the NFLs worst O-line before you do anything else? I think this is a no brainer...because it doesn't matter if you have Joe Montana and Walter Payton behind our O line...this team is not going to be successful until it builds a good foundation...which includes a decent headcoach, O coordinator, and personnel shop. We scratch our heads every year on personnel decisions because bad personnel people are making bad personnel decisions. Until Mr Wilson makes a change within his organization you count count on the Dick Jauron/Aaron Maybin/Alex Van Pelt-like decisions to continue.
mrags Posted November 11, 2009 Posted November 11, 2009 You draft for or trade for the franchise QB first, if you don't have one on your team. Look at all the succesfull teams -they have a franchise QB, Go right down the line: Colts: Peyton Manning. Bill Polians' first draft pick after taking over in Indy in 1998. Nice way to start, huh? Steelers: Big Ben: first round draft pick. (Taken the very pick before the Bills in 2004!) Bengals: Palmer: first round draft pick. Pats: Already had Bledsoe, their first round draft pick on the team, so they took a flyer on Brady in the 6th round. (Only the great teams are lucky, right?) Chargers: Rivers; first round draft pick, traded from the Giants during the draft for Eli. Broncos: Straight up trade for starting QB's to get Orton from Chicago, working out terrific, but they traded their own first round draft pick because he wanted out of town. Ravens: Flacco - first round draft pick. Cowboys: The Exception: Tony Romo - I don't even know what round he was drafted in, but I know he wasn't a number one pick for Dallas. Saints: Traded for Brees, a starting franchise-type QB having some success with San Diego, but became super human with the Saints offense since the trade. Brees was originally drafted at the top of the second round by SD. Falcons: First round draft pick - Matt Ryan. Vikings: Signed HOF legend Brett Favre out of his 9th retirement. Nice first half so far, but watch for the 40 year old to struggle as the season wears on, weren't the Jets 5-3 or 6-2 at the half way mark last year too?? Eagles: McNabb is still there 10 years later, a first round draft pick. Looks like young Kolb may be a keeper too. Giants: Eli - number one pick in the draft traded to the Giants for Rivers by SD. I do agree with your comment about getting a QB that can lead your team for years but you are wrong on some of your points about the QB's listed above. Tom Brady- A 6th round pick is hardly a flyer. Would you consider Cary Harris a flyer? They might have seen some major talent in him to draft him, but to think they were extremely high on him at the time would be rediculous since they waited 5 rounds to draft him. Orton- To think that Denver wanted Orton over Cutler (with the exception of Cutler's attitude over the offseason) is rediculous. They also received a 1st round pick in 2009 and 2010, a third round pick in 2009, and only had to give up a 5th rounder in 2009. To say they wanted the trade because they wanted Orton makes anyone look dumb. It was the compensation they received. Tony Romo- Undrafted Drew Brees- In 04 he was signed as the Franchise Player with SD and played out the 05 season. He then became a FA and was picked up by NO after battling with Miami for his services. Many teams were hesitant to sign him based on his 2 years of success and a shoulder injury.
hb123 Posted November 11, 2009 Posted November 11, 2009 I do agree with your comment about getting a QB that can lead your team for years but you are wrong on some of your points about the QB's listed above. Tom Brady- A 6th round pick is hardly a flyer. Would you consider Cary Harris a flyer? They might have seen some major talent in him to draft him, but to think they were extremely high on him at the time would be rediculous since they waited 5 rounds to draft him. Orton- To think that Denver wanted Orton over Cutler (with the exception of Cutler's attitude over the offseason) is rediculous. They also received a 1st round pick in 2009 and 2010, a third round pick in 2009, and only had to give up a 5th rounder in 2009. To say they wanted the trade because they wanted Orton makes anyone look dumb. It was the compensation they received. Tony Romo- Undrafted Drew Brees- In 04 he was signed as the Franchise Player with SD and played out the 05 season. He then became a FA and was picked up by NO after battling with Miami for his services. Many teams were hesitant to sign him based on his 2 years of success and a shoulder injury. The bills need a LOT of things......... but more than anything they need a franchise qb. Get the qb and fill in with some fa's and other draft picks to help fill out the ol. You see alot more OL that become solid players that are picked in the later rounds than qb's. But to do anything in the NFL you have to have a top notch qb. A big part of the bills prob is their head coach, but also defenses are right up on the line and that kills the running game. They know that 99% of the time our qb's then throw the 4 yr outlet pass or so much pressure has come through the qb gets sacked. If you had a qb that could make throws down the field and into small windows the defense is forced to back off and that helps the oline and running game with not having 8-9 guys in the box. Obviously coaching and their staff and game planning helps too, which unless we see a house cleaning it won't change the bills fortunes.
N.Y. Orangeman Posted November 11, 2009 Posted November 11, 2009 The Bills need to take the best left tackle in the draft next year with their first round pick. I have been arguing in these posts that we missed the boat on Michael Oher and instead took Maybin (who is a bust)! People want to argue with me on this but until I'm proven wrong....Shut Up! We need to go after the best free agent QB available for next year. Ideally we trade up in round one and take a left tackle and quarterback but I doubt this will happen. Unfortunately nothing we do in free agency or the draft will matter unless Dickbag gets fired. Dickbag would have the Colts and Saints at 4-4 and finish at 7-9.
thebandit27 Posted November 11, 2009 Posted November 11, 2009 How can you not improve on the NFLs worst O-line before you do anything else? I think this is a no brainer...because it doesn't matter if you have Joe Montana and Walter Payton behind our O line...this team is not going to be successful until it builds a good foundation...which includes a decent headcoach, O coordinator, and personnel shop. We scratch our heads every year on personnel decisions because bad personnel people are making bad personnel decisions. Until Mr Wilson makes a change within his organization you count count on the Dick Jauron/Aaron Maybin/Alex Van Pelt-like decisions to continue. Buffalo doesn't have the worst o-line in the NFL, at least not according to the stats. And yes, it I believe it does matter who you have behind the line. Do you honestly believe that Tom Brady, Peyton Manning, or Ben Roethlisberger (I pick them not only because they're elite QBs, but also because they have average-at-best running games) wouldn't do significantly better behind Buffalo's OL than Edwards and Fitzpatrick? I'd like to point out, at this time, that Buffalo's sacks given up went down by almost 2 sacks/game (3.28 vs. 1.45) in games that Fitzpatrick played--which tells me that at least a decent chunk of the pass protection problems comes from Edwards being unable to sense a pass rush. To boot, of the teams Edwards faced (NE, TB, NO, Mia, Cle, and NYJ--for 1 quarter), only Miami ranks in the top half of the league in sacks, so it's not as if he faced teams that pressure the QB consistently. I'm not talking up Fitzpatrick here, because I don't think he's good either, but a QB has to be able to sense pocket pressure, and clearly Edwards has an issue with it. Great QBs prosper in spite of poor line play. Roethlisberger did it in 2008 when Pittsburgh gave up 49 sacks and went on to win the Superbowl, Brady did it in 2007 by going 18-1 even when the Patriots line play completely broke down toward the end of the season (they gave up only 5 more sacks than the Bills did that year--an average of 0.31 sacks/game--while Buffalo finished 11th in the NFL in fewest sacks allowed, and only won 7 games), Roethlisberger did it in 2005 when Pittsburgh gave up 47 sacks and won the Superbowl, and Philadelphia gave up 37 sacks (1 less than Buffalo) in 2004 when they won the NFC Championship. My point is simply that great QB play trumps OL play. I'll stop grandstanding about it now, as I'm sure most of you have read my feelings on this topic (and the associated myriad of data) before. I guess it just makes more sense to me to find a franchise QB first. Look at how awesome New Orleans' offense is, and they're starting a 4th round pick at LT, a 5th round college tackle at LG, someone else's 5th round pick from 2002 at C, a 4th round pick at RG, and a 2nd round pick at RT. I dare say it's the QB that makes it all work. Just my 1 cent.
mrags Posted November 11, 2009 Posted November 11, 2009 Buffalo doesn't have the worst o-line in the NFL, at least not according to the stats. And yes, it I believe it does matter who you have behind the line. Do you honestly believe that Tom Brady, Peyton Manning, or Ben Roethlisberger (I pick them not only because they're elite QBs, but also because they have average-at-best running games) wouldn't do significantly better behind Buffalo's OL than Edwards and Fitzpatrick? I'd like to point out, at this time, that Buffalo's sacks given up went down by almost 2 sacks/game (3.28 vs. 1.45) in games that Fitzpatrick played--which tells me that at least a decent chunk of the pass protection problems comes from Edwards being unable to sense a pass rush. To boot, of the teams Edwards faced (NE, TB, NO, Mia, Cle, and NYJ--for 1 quarter), only Miami ranks in the top half of the league in sacks, so it's not as if he faced teams that pressure the QB consistently. I'm not talking up Fitzpatrick here, because I don't think he's good either, but a QB has to be able to sense pocket pressure, and clearly Edwards has an issue with it. Great QBs prosper in spite of poor line play. Roethlisberger did it in 2008 when Pittsburgh gave up 49 sacks and went on to win the Superbowl, Brady did it in 2007 by going 18-1 even when the Patriots line play completely broke down toward the end of the season (they gave up only 5 more sacks than the Bills did that year--an average of 0.31 sacks/game--while Buffalo finished 11th in the NFL in fewest sacks allowed, and only won 7 games), Roethlisberger did it in 2005 when Pittsburgh gave up 47 sacks and won the Superbowl, and Philadelphia gave up 37 sacks (1 less than Buffalo) in 2004 when they won the NFC Championship. My point is simply that great QB play trumps OL play. I'll stop grandstanding about it now, as I'm sure most of you have read my feelings on this topic (and the associated myriad of data) before. I guess it just makes more sense to me to find a franchise QB first. Look at how awesome New Orleans' offense is, and they're starting a 4th round pick at LT, a 5th round college tackle at LG, someone else's 5th round pick from 2002 at C, a 4th round pick at RG, and a 2nd round pick at RT. I dare say it's the QB that makes it all work. Just my 1 cent. Ya, What he said ^^^^
mrags Posted November 11, 2009 Posted November 11, 2009 The bills need a LOT of things......... but more than anything they need a franchise qb. Get the qb and fill in with some fa's and other draft picks to help fill out the ol. You see alot more OL that become solid players that are picked in the later rounds than qb's. But to do anything in the NFL you have to have a top notch qb. A big part of the bills prob is their head coach, but also defenses are right up on the line and that kills the running game. They know that 99% of the time our qb's then throw the 4 yr outlet pass or so much pressure has come through the qb gets sacked. If you had a qb that could make throws down the field and into small windows the defense is forced to back off and that helps the oline and running game with not having 8-9 guys in the box. Obviously coaching and their staff and game planning helps too, which unless we see a house cleaning it won't change the bills fortunes. I agreed with us needing a Franchise QB, I was just picking out flaws in the previous posters info. The truth is there are many ways to find a Franchise QB. Personally, Id rather trade for a young one, or get an experienced FA and draft a young one early to ensure that we have experience and depth right away.
AF88Bills Posted November 11, 2009 Posted November 11, 2009 Buffalo doesn't have the worst o-line in the NFL, at least not according to the stats. And yes, it I believe it does matter who you have behind the line. Do you honestly believe that Tom Brady, Peyton Manning, or Ben Roethlisberger (I pick them not only because they're elite QBs, but also because they have average-at-best running games) wouldn't do significantly better behind Buffalo's OL than Edwards and Fitzpatrick? I'd like to point out, at this time, that Buffalo's sacks given up went down by almost 2 sacks/game (3.28 vs. 1.45) in games that Fitzpatrick played--which tells me that at least a decent chunk of the pass protection problems comes from Edwards being unable to sense a pass rush. To boot, of the teams Edwards faced (NE, TB, NO, Mia, Cle, and NYJ--for 1 quarter), only Miami ranks in the top half of the league in sacks, so it's not as if he faced teams that pressure the QB consistently. I'm not talking up Fitzpatrick here, because I don't think he's good either, but a QB has to be able to sense pocket pressure, and clearly Edwards has an issue with it. Great QBs prosper in spite of poor line play. Roethlisberger did it in 2008 when Pittsburgh gave up 49 sacks and went on to win the Superbowl, Brady did it in 2007 by going 18-1 even when the Patriots line play completely broke down toward the end of the season (they gave up only 5 more sacks than the Bills did that year--an average of 0.31 sacks/game--while Buffalo finished 11th in the NFL in fewest sacks allowed, and only won 7 games), Roethlisberger did it in 2005 when Pittsburgh gave up 47 sacks and won the Superbowl, and Philadelphia gave up 37 sacks (1 less than Buffalo) in 2004 when they won the NFC Championship. My point is simply that great QB play trumps OL play. I'll stop grandstanding about it now, as I'm sure most of you have read my feelings on this topic (and the associated myriad of data) before. I guess it just makes more sense to me to find a franchise QB first. Look at how awesome New Orleans' offense is, and they're starting a 4th round pick at LT, a 5th round college tackle at LG, someone else's 5th round pick from 2002 at C, a 4th round pick at RG, and a 2nd round pick at RT. I dare say it's the QB that makes it all work. Just my 1 cent. With all things being equal, I would say yes you are correct. A great QB might do OK with a bad O-line...BUT all things aren't equal. The Bills have basic offensive scheme. One that other teams have figured out. They have a below average and unimaginative head coach. From what I've seen, the Oline coach follows in the mold of Jauron...doesn't exactly get the most from his players. Additionally, Pittsburg has the benefit of the Steel curtain. Brady has the benefit of Belicheck and an above average O-line...one that exemplifies continuity. The Saints have Sean Payton. By comparing the sack statistics of other teams to that the Bills is comparing apples to oranges. The success of those teams are not soley attributed to the quality of the QB they drafted. Its a collective product of coaching, personnel, and scheme.
bills_fan Posted November 11, 2009 Posted November 11, 2009 I agreed with us needing a Franchise QB, I was just picking out flaws in the previous posters info. The truth is there are many ways to find a Franchise QB. Personally, Id rather trade for a young one, or get an experienced FA and draft a young one early to ensure that we have experience and depth right away. Now that Edwards is coming back, I think TE has to know that he is playing for his job next year. These next 8 games should be very revealing with Trent. I think we decide QB or LT based upon three factors: 1- How TE finishes the year 2- Where we pick and who is likely available (no reaches!) 3- If we think a decent QB is available in Round 2. Lots of QBs with decent ratings right now...Clausen, Locker, McCoy, Tebow, Bradford etc. How many teams go QB in the first 42 or so picks? Also, its no gurantee that we draft either. This mock has us picking 10th and taking DT McCoy. They also have 4 QBs going in the top 10 (along with 2 LT, Suh and Berry). They have us with Ryan Mallet in Round 2 at QB.
spartacus Posted November 12, 2009 Posted November 12, 2009 If Garcia could still take a team to the playoffs, why is he still available? The problem is, will adding even more inexperience to this o-line by drafting a rookie LT really going to help? If Bell is not the answer after gaining the experience from this year, get a FA LT As for no QB being able to play behind this line, Aaron Rodgers seems to do really well behind a horrible o-line. A good QB can make a bad o-line better because they can make better decisions and get the ball out to his players. You can give TE all day to through, but it still doesn't mean he is going to be able to get the ball out to his WR's and not just check down every play sounds like a great plan - in fact very similar to the same plan the Bills have used to stock their OL since Polian left pretend that castoffs and scrubs are NFL caliber players and then get some some inept OL coaches to mold them into a studly bunch by the way- your assessment is completely off base inexperience has not been the problem with the OL for the last 15 years, lack of talent has been the problem
BillsVet Posted November 12, 2009 Posted November 12, 2009 Now that Edwards is coming back, I think TE has to know that he is playing for his job next year. These next 8 games should be very revealing with Trent. I think we decide QB or LT based upon three factors: 1- How TE finishes the year 2- Where we pick and who is likely available (no reaches!) 3- If we think a decent QB is available in Round 2. Lots of QBs with decent ratings right now...Clausen, Locker, McCoy, Tebow, Bradford etc. How many teams go QB in the first 42 or so picks? Name the last second round QB this decade who's become an outstanding signal caller? The only one I can find is Drew Brees, and he was the first pick in the second of 2001. The best QB's (cue the Brady exception poster) are found in Round 1. It's downright horrifying to think the current front office may have the chance to pick a QB. That's even worse than having to see Edwards back in 2010 starting.
bills_fan Posted November 12, 2009 Posted November 12, 2009 Name the last second round QB this decade who's become an outstanding signal caller? The only one I can find is Drew Brees, and he was the first pick in the second of 2001. The best QB's (cue the Brady exception poster) are found in Round 1. It's downright horrifying to think the current front office may have the chance to pick a QB. That's even worse than having to see Edwards back in 2010 starting. Problem is that the top 3 or 4 QBs may already be gone by the time we pick, which was the point of my posting of that mock. I don't want to reach for the 4th or 5th best QB, when I could get the #1 or 2 rated LT or DT. Then I take the QB or even a LB in Round 2.
Astrobot Posted November 12, 2009 Posted November 12, 2009 I simulated a draft on www.drafttek.com with the Bills with the 9th pick, putting OT, OG and QB as equal high priority. Here's the result (*=Junior expected to declare) Pick 9 Buffalo *Sam Bradford QB Oklahoma 41 Buffalo *Bruce Campbell OT Maryland 74 Buffalo *Gabe Carimi OT Wisconsin 106 Buffalo *Mike Pouncey OG Florida As you can see, you aren't guaranteeing a poor line by selecting QB first. BTW, Drafttek will be releasing a new mock in about an hour. Let's see if the Bills take a QB or an LT (wink wink) Astro Bills Correspondent DraftTek.com
lvbillzfan Posted November 12, 2009 Posted November 12, 2009 I don't think anyone gets it. We have chaged QB's, linemen, linebackers, secondary... 10 times this decade. THAT is not our problem. We have the wrong people making the decisions. No player will help this team. We need a new front office (GM, head coach, and new directors) in order to move forward. People always say things like how do these teams "find" these players (Harrison from Pittsburgh or Sanders from Indy are examples). The Steelers and Colts didn't "find" them, they made them great players just like what the Patriots, Cowboys, Eagles etc. do over and over again.
spartacus Posted November 12, 2009 Posted November 12, 2009 I simulated a draft on www.drafttek.com with the Bills with the 9th pick, putting OT, OG and QB as equal high priority. Here's the result (*=Junior expected to declare) Pick 9 Buffalo *Sam Bradford QB Oklahoma 41 Buffalo *Bruce Campbell OT Maryland 74 Buffalo *Gabe Carimi OT Wisconsin 106 Buffalo *Mike Pouncey OG Florida As you can see, you aren't guaranteeing a poor line by selecting QB first. BTW, Drafttek will be releasing a new mock in about an hour. Let's see if the Bills take a QB or an LT (wink wink) Astro Bills Correspondent DraftTek.com Bradford is the typical Bills pick draft a guy that is already broken and has proven to be made of porcelin. then wonder why he is out of football in 3 years after putting him behind a sieve-like OL
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