Realist Posted November 10, 2009 Share Posted November 10, 2009 If you take the entire team into account, I'd go with Flutie even though I couldn't stand his attitude. This OLine would get anyone killed and you need someone to move around back there. I don't think even Kelly would do anything behind this line. Although, I would love to see Kelly screaming at the OLine. He's the only QB we had that made everyone accountable for what they did on the field. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebandit27 Posted November 10, 2009 Share Posted November 10, 2009 Flutie may have taken a team to the Superbowl, if a moronic owner didn't put his two cents in and force Wade Phillips to play a surfer boy quarterback in the playoff game against Tennessee. The Bills were the hottest team in the AFC going into the playoffs that season. If winning a Superbowl is the only way you can be a winner, than alot of players that were commonly known as winners, are losers in your book-Dan Marino, Jim Kelly (or anyone who has ever played for the Bills for that matter), Fran Tarkenton, Dan Fouts, Barry Sanders, Eric Dickerson, Earl Campbell, Steve Largent, Cris Carter, Dick Butkus, Ozzie Newsome, Warren Moon, I can go on and on with greats that haven't won a Super Bowl or even made it there period, which by your standards makes them all losers. On the other hand, by your standards the following are winners based on your standards-Trent Dilfer, Doug Williams, Jeff Hostetler, Brad Johnson, etc. To summarize, you are in the minority around here thinking that Flutie is a loser because he never made it to a Super Bowl and won. That would be true, if I saw the world in absolutes. But again, you've failed in trying to ascertain the way that I think. You see, there are winners, losers, and many levels in between. In fact, I never once used the word "loser" in ANY of my posts, so you can feel free to hop right off of that train. I repeat, you'd be better off spending your posting time supporting your point that trying to disprove mine. If you need to put words into my mouth in order to make your point, you probably don't have a very strong one to begin with. I never said the only way to be a winner was to win the Superbowl, but I did say that it's the ultimate goal, and that I'd prefer a guy that gives me the chance to win it when he gets into the playoffs. Of the guys you've mentioned, every single one of them won playoff games, which puts them a cut above the guys that didn't in terms of winning. Period. This really isn't that complicated a point that I'm making. It's very simple actually. Yet you want to add in all of these "would haves" and "could haves". I'm not interested in that stuff, the results are what matters. Flutie had a chance in the playoffs, and he blew it. So spare me the "may have/stupid owner" stuff. If he were that good he'd have taken San Diego to a Superbowl, or to the playoffs, or to a record better than 5-11 (with 7 straight losses to end the season), or maybe he would have led an offense that was statistically better than Buffalo's in any offensive category (EDIT: After further review, SD's offense was 3.9 ppg better than Buffalo's; in every other category they were virtually identical). To summarize: I'll take the QB that can throw for more yards, more TDs, lead a better offense, make more playoff appearances, win in the playoffs, and get me to a Superbowl over the guy that's a nice human interest story. For my closing, here are a few other comparitive facts: - In 1988, Flutie's 1st year with NE, the team won 9 games (6 with Flutie) with the #5 ranked defense (this would be the playoff loss in Miami) - In 1998, Flutie's 1st year with Buffalo, the team won 10 games (7 with Flutie) with the #6 ranked defense (this would be the playoff loss in Miami) - In 1999, Flutie's best statistical season, the team won 11 games (10 with Flutie) with the #1 ranked defense (playoff loss to Tennessee) - In 2000, Flutie's final season in Buffalo, the team won 8 games (4 with Flutie) with the #3 ranked defense (no playoffs) Interestingly enough, these are the only season's in which Flutie had a winning record (when starting at least 2 games). Once he moved on to SD, he never played with a top 16 defense, and (purely coincidentally, I'm sure) never won more than 5 games in a season and never finished over .500 as a starter. Now, for a little contrast: - In 1994, Bledsoe's 2nd year in the league, the team won 11 games with the #18 ranked defense (NE went to the playoffs that year and lost) - In 1996, Bledsoe's 4th year in NE, the team won 11 games with the #19 ranked defense (NE went to the Superbowl) - In 1997, NE won 10 games with the #19 ranked defense (won 1 playoff game and lost to Pittsburgh, who went to the Superbowl) And I could go on, but I won't. The point is, we're talking about two different class of players over the course of their careers. You can eliminate all but the times during which each played in Buffalo if it makes you feel better, but--in regard to their NFL careers, there's no comparison. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billsfreak Posted November 10, 2009 Share Posted November 10, 2009 That would be true, if I saw the world in absolutes. But again, you've failed in trying to ascertain the way that I think. You see, there are winners, losers, and many levels in between. In fact, I never once used the word "loser" in ANY of my posts, so you can feel free to hop right off of that train. I repeat, you'd be better off spending your posting time supporting your point that trying to disprove mine. If you need to put words into my mouth in order to make your point, you probably don't have a very strong one to begin with. I never said the only way to be a winner was to win the Superbowl, but I did say that it's the ultimate goal, and that I'd prefer a guy that gives me the chance to win it when he gets into the playoffs. Of the guys you've mentioned, every single one of them won playoff games, which puts them a cut above the guys that didn't in terms of winning. Period. This really isn't that complicated a point that I'm making. It's very simple actually. Yet you want to add in all of these "would haves" and "could haves". I'm not interested in that stuff, the results are what matters. Flutie had a chance in the playoffs, and he blew it. So spare me the "may have/stupid owner" stuff. If he were that good he'd have taken San Diego to a Superbowl, or to the playoffs, or to a record better than 5-11 (with 7 straight losses to end the season), or maybe he would have led an offense that was statistically better than Buffalo's in any offensive category (EDIT: After further review, SD's offense was 3.9 ppg better than Buffalo's; in every other category they were virtually identical). To summarize: I'll take the QB that can throw for more yards, more TDs, lead a better offense, make more playoff appearances, win in the playoffs, and get me to a Superbowl over the guy that's a nice human interest story. For my closing, here are a few other comparitive facts: - In 1988, Flutie's 1st year with NE, the team won 9 games (6 with Flutie) with the #5 ranked defense (this would be the playoff loss in Miami) - In 1998, Flutie's 1st year with Buffalo, the team won 10 games (7 with Flutie) with the #6 ranked defense (this would be the playoff loss in Miami) - In 1999, Flutie's best statistical season, the team won 11 games (10 with Flutie) with the #1 ranked defense (playoff loss to Tennessee) - In 2000, Flutie's final season in Buffalo, the team won 8 games (4 with Flutie) with the #3 ranked defense (no playoffs) Interestingly enough, these are the only season's in which Flutie had a winning record (when starting at least 2 games). Once he moved on to SD, he never played with a top 16 defense, and (purely coincidentally, I'm sure) never won more than 5 games in a season and never finished over .500 as a starter. Now, for a little contrast: - In 1994, Bledsoe's 2nd year in the league, the team won 11 games with the #18 ranked defense (NE went to the playoffs that year and lost) - In 1996, Bledsoe's 4th year in NE, the team won 11 games with the #19 ranked defense (NE went to the Superbowl) - In 1997, NE won 10 games with the #19 ranked defense (won 1 playoff game and lost to Pittsburgh, who went to the Superbowl) And I could go on, but I won't. The point is, we're talking about two different class of players over the course of their careers. You can eliminate all but the times during which each played in Buffalo if it makes you feel better, but--in regard to their NFL careers, there's no comparison. Right from your post: You said that Flutie is a "winner". I said that no, he was not, If you are not a winner, you must be a loser, so yes you did say he was a loser in a quite clear roundabout way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebandit27 Posted November 10, 2009 Share Posted November 10, 2009 Right from your post: You said that Flutie is a "winner". I said that no, he was not, If you are not a winner, you must be a loser, so yes you did say he was a loser in a quite clear roundabout way. Wow. So you really don't read my posts before responding...awesome. Also right from my post: That would be true, if I saw the world in absolutes. But again, you've failed in trying to ascertain the way that I think. You see, there are winners, losers, and many levels in between. In fact, I never once used the word "loser" in ANY of my posts, so you can feel free to hop right off of that train. You've got nothing for me, so I'm done with you dude. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billsfreak Posted November 10, 2009 Share Posted November 10, 2009 Wow. So you really don't read my posts before responding...awesome. Also right from my post: That would be true, if I saw the world in absolutes. But again, you've failed in trying to ascertain the way that I think. You see, there are winners, losers, and many levels in between. In fact, I never once used the word "loser" in ANY of my posts, so you can feel free to hop right off of that train. You've got nothing for me, so I'm done with you dude. I have been done with you, I am not qualified for the type of help that you really need. I strongly encourage you seek some help for your issues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebandit27 Posted November 10, 2009 Share Posted November 10, 2009 I have been done with you, I am not qualified for the type of help that you really need. I strongly encourage you seek some help for your issues. Ah yes, I must need help since I disagree with you. I mean, what rational person would have the gall to disagree with billsfreak, right? Really dude, it's okay. You lost a debate; it's alright, you'll live. It happens; you don't have to get personal (although I think it's kind of funny, so if it makes you feel better go right ahead). You're certainly entitled to your opinion, so the only advice I'll offer you is to stop acting as though you can identify others' personality or temperment from a single message board posts...it makes you sound stuffy and overly presumptuous. Stick to the topic at hand, you may fare better in the future. Oh yeah, and the "you need help" stuff really appears as though you're admitting defeat, so I'd scrap that approach as well. Best of luck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rstencel Posted November 10, 2009 Share Posted November 10, 2009 Ah yes, I must need help since I disagree with you. I mean, what rational person would have the gall to disagree with billsfreak, right? Really dude, it's okay. You lost a debate; it's alright, you'll live. It happens; you don't have to get personal (although I think it's kind of funny, so if it makes you feel better go right ahead). You're certainly entitled to your opinion, so the only advice I'll offer you is to stop acting as though you can identify others' personality or temperment from a single message board posts...it makes you sound stuffy and overly presumptuous. Stick to the topic at hand, you may fare better in the future. Oh yeah, and the "you need help" stuff really appears as though you're admitting defeat, so I'd scrap that approach as well. Best of luck. Billsfreak is right in that Flutie wins the popularity contest. I wouldn't want him as a QB in the NFL with his limited abilities and height and the current speed of today's defenses. Especially considering how weak of a actual QB he is, but he would be a descent backup, if he could keep his huge ego in check that is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. WEO Posted November 10, 2009 Share Posted November 10, 2009 Did telling the world that he thought he was better than Rob Johnson (pretty obvious to most everybody at the time) make him an egomaniac?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rstencel Posted November 10, 2009 Share Posted November 10, 2009 Did telling the world that he thought he was better than Rob Johnson (pretty obvious to most everybody at the time) make him an egomaniac?? It was a whole lot more than that, but no that wouldn't be an issue, as you want you QB's to be confident. It was the lobbying and dividing of the locker room and bashing/undercutting of Rob Johnson that was an issue. The way he undermined his chances of leading the team before the first game Rob even had a chance to play in were underhanded and absolutely dishonorable. As far as being obvious, no it wasn't in practice, but on field yes. Rob was awesome without a rush, he had a great arm and looked like an all pro in practice. Watching Flutie practice next to him, was almost like watching a High Schooler, his arm was so much weaker, and his height. But was obvious that he was much more experienced. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam Posted November 10, 2009 Share Posted November 10, 2009 Flutie, the last QB to get us to the playoffs and he did it twice. He excelled at improvising when plays blew up, finding ways to move the chains even when the offense, especially the line, was getting out-played. Behind a good line and in his prime, I'd have to consider Bledsoe. Trent and Fitz haven't proved that they even belong on the same field. Trent makes plays when they are there to be made but that's it. I like Fitz's attitude but he just doesn't have the arm. Did Flutie play nose tackle or OLB? That defense got us to the playoffs- Flutie was along for the ride and his fans all smoke LSD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flbillsfan#1 Posted November 10, 2009 Share Posted November 10, 2009 Did Flutie play nose tackle or OLB? That defense got us to the playoffs- Flutie was along for the ride and his fans all smoke LSD What team gets to the playoffs without a good defense? Flutie played a MAJOR role in the Bills making the playoffs & would have led them to the Superbowl if he was given the chance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rstencel Posted November 10, 2009 Share Posted November 10, 2009 What team gets to the playoffs without a good defense? Flutie played a MAJOR role in the Bills making the playoffs & would have led them to the Superbowl if he was given the chance. Wow, now thats a serious pair of rose colored glasses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rstencel Posted November 11, 2009 Share Posted November 11, 2009 The real question is - if Flutie was given the "Outright" starter position and RJ was declared 2nd string from word go (so you didn't have a divided locker room), would Flutie have been better than 21-9 as a starter for Buffalo. Given this group, Flutie hands down gets my vote. (I would have loved to see Flutie in his prime in the NFL to see if he could reproduce his CFL success, ala Warren Moon) Actually think in some ways he was better off not being the starter from the start. The team wasn't, but it didn't really allow other teams to game plan him from start, so he was able to do things they weren't always ready for. When game plan for a team that doesn't have a pure QB for a whole season, teams learn from teams before them and get better at figuring out ways to stop them. Basically for him, key was to keep him in the pocket, since he had trouble seeing whole field, and couldn't see all the defenders, plus he needed a throwing lane in order to be able to throw a strike, and not a lob. If let him run around and get throwing lanes, then he was pretty effective. Overall though, it would have been better for the team if they had chosen one QB, and not flopped. Funny part was, is it was mainly the defense that wanted him over Johnson, not the offensive players so much. He had trouble throwing to the receivers, except when he rolled out to their side, as he couldn't really through the outs due to arm strength, and couldn't throw the slants do to height issues, needed to get a lane, and those plays develop so fast, didn't have time to find one. Would have hated to be stuck with him as my QB if was a coordinator, because his main play was running around waiting for someone to get open, or a running lane to open up. Tough to come up with a game plan for that. I don't know if the record would have been better, but the locker room would have been for sure. I spent some time in that locker room during his first year with team as well as the year before, as an unpaid helper for the equipment manager. The tension in the locker room was high, and there were tons of squabbles and bickering. A good portion of team would leave quickly after the practices, and just try and avoid being in the locker room long. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Booster4324 Posted November 11, 2009 Share Posted November 11, 2009 Where's RJ? Or did he get hurt already? Freak accident, he fell on a nerf football playing in the park. Out 4-6 weeks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam Posted November 11, 2009 Share Posted November 11, 2009 What team gets to the playoffs without a good defense? Flutie played a MAJOR role in the Bills making the playoffs & would have led them to the Superbowl if he was given the chance. That is nothing more than a very biased opinion. Knowledgable scouts didn't think much of him late in the seasons he played. He was a joke a very short, spritely joke. I stomped on Flutie Flakes, does that upset you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haven Moses Posted November 11, 2009 Share Posted November 11, 2009 I would go with Dennis Shaw or Dan Darraugh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billsfreak Posted November 12, 2009 Share Posted November 12, 2009 Ah yes, I must need help since I disagree with you. I mean, what rational person would have the gall to disagree with billsfreak, right? Really dude, it's okay. You lost a debate; it's alright, you'll live. It happens; you don't have to get personal (although I think it's kind of funny, so if it makes you feel better go right ahead). You're certainly entitled to your opinion, so the only advice I'll offer you is to stop acting as though you can identify others' personality or temperment from a single message board posts...it makes you sound stuffy and overly presumptuous. Stick to the topic at hand, you may fare better in the future. Oh yeah, and the "you need help" stuff really appears as though you're admitting defeat, so I'd scrap that approach as well. Best of luck. I thought you said you were done with me, but you still chirp in on your losing argument. People who are wrong always have to get in the last word, and that is you in a nutshell dude. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fezmid Posted November 12, 2009 Share Posted November 12, 2009 Right, because it's not like Bledsoe led NE to the 1995 AFC Championship, or played in the Superbowl, or came in during the 2001 AFC Championship game in relief of an injured Tom Brady and put the winning points on the board. Sorry, but out of that group it's Bledsoe, and it's not even close. HE is the only winner of those guys, as evidenced by his record, level of passing success, number of playoff appearances, and number of Superbowl appearances. You forgot the 'led us to our two best records this century, and only winning season of the century," as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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