Fixxxer Posted November 16, 2004 Share Posted November 16, 2004 Was last year Carson Palmers growing pains when he ssat all last year? Were growing pains with Kyle Boller last year when he played reasonably well before his injury or this year when his QB rating has been worse? Were Pennington's growing pains the first year when he sat, the second year when he sat or his throd year when he took the Jets to tje playoffs? I donm't kmow where you found this "rule: about what it means when you draft a QB in the 1st round and some alleged schedule he must keep, but it seeems pretty far removed from reality. I'll try to keep the operative rule here short for folks who are freaked by long posts. Start Losman when he is ready, not a moment sooner, and not a moment later. Do you disagree with this? 120685[/snapback] what about Leftwich, he was brought along carefully in his rookie year, they benched Brunnel so that he could get acclimatated with the speed of the game and already paid dividends, this year until injury he was leading his team to the playoffs (they're still there with Garard) sure their offense isn't great yet but is getting the job done. This is the time of JPL to grow in the job so that next year he's more comfortable with his teammates, the offense and the NFL speed. Start him, prepare him for next year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alaska Darin Posted November 16, 2004 Share Posted November 16, 2004 BTW...Carson palmer is getting his growing pains out of the way THIS year. You know the year he is PLAYING. Cinci screwed themselfs last year by sitting him. Boller BTW has NOW WR's. all they have are guys that should be #3's on any othe team. Tell me...how good would Boller be if the TO trade would have stood? JP has a probowler in Moulds something I bet Boller wishes he had. Pennington has had more than his share of growing pains. Again his development was retarded by SITTING. you say playoffs the year he finally played? Might have been Superbowl had they let him develop the year before. 120717[/snapback] Of course, that's after taking 30% of the practice snaps for an entire season, not rehabbing an injury that he's still not completely over. But we'll ignore that little fact because it fits our latest tantrum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jahnyc Posted November 16, 2004 Share Posted November 16, 2004 Of course we should play Losman now. But if we cut Bledsoe in the offseason we will need a veteran qb for next year. Since Jimbo, The Bills have had a very poor record in developing and identifying a franchise qb for the team. I hope JP breaks this string, but, in any event, the team should be agressive in efforts to improve the team at every position, including qb. I think playing JP for the remainder of the season makes sense, but I do want someone who can be an effective substitute for him next year if he gets injured or plays poorly over an extended period of time. I don't want to put all of our eggs in one basket and then find out a couple of years later that it is not going to work out. I am tired of this constant process of rebuilding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fake-Fat Sunny Posted November 16, 2004 Share Posted November 16, 2004 Playing is the only way. 120721[/snapback] I think this where we disagree. You say playing is the ONLY way. I say playimg is necesary, but not the ONLY way a player improves himself and MAY not be the first thing you do with a player to improve his game or make him good enough, Again read my photons and I will try to type slowly. JP CAN, SHOULD, and MUST play to have him develop into our QB of the future and to make the future happen as quickly as it can. The question we are discussing is when should he start. I say start him as soon as he is ready, not a moment sooner (because you can actually retard a player's development by throwing him to the wolves before he is ready) and not a moment later (because we Bills fans hurt bad watching Bledsoe's futility). If you disagree with this any think we should start him before he is ready you are even more nuts than I thought. The question we are debating is the question of IF he is in fact ready to start. I take the easy and true position I don't know. Did he have any post play swelling or range of motion limitations? I don't know. I take from him playing that he is physically healed and thats good news but I do not know if he is physically up to starting. Maybe you're a doc or have X-ray vision or something and do know how his body responded to NFL pounding after a bone fracture, Has he absorbed NFL knowledge so he can do good reads and translate them quickly and efficently to his teammates? I don't know. Most NFL rookies need a little time and some playbook reviewing and tape watching before they can do this. Its why you sit great athletes like Pennington and Vick, its why you sit a player drafted as highly as Carson Palmer. I suspecttha thanks to his injury and an opportunity to sit in the booth with Sam Wyche this part of JPs game and learning were greatly accelerated over playing. Are JPs mechnical issues we have all seen in some his best highlights of making off-balance throws and throwing off the wrong foot solved? I don't know. These issues are critical fo the modern QB in the oversystematized NFL. Patterns are such that they operate with the QB throwing the sme way everytime for the most part. The free-lancing of a Vick is exciting to watch but also seems difficult to deal with in the modern NFL, Even worse, off-balance passes can be completed against college level competition, but JP needs to raise his game a level for the pros. PT will help him do that, but in terms of a lot of the mechanics and improvement its NOT ONLY the game which is key but hours of boring repetition in practice. I think the good news for JP is that starting is not the only way to get PT. Mop-up duty helps and this is part of why he was thrown in Sunday. He will be facing NFL level speed and competition in practice and if Troy Vincent doesn't hurt him this can help as well. PT is essential and key. However, what I flat out disagree with you about is that starting is the only way to get PT and that he has nothing to gain from things other than PT. Again start Losman when he is ready, not a mpment before that and not a moment later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ICE Posted November 17, 2004 Author Share Posted November 17, 2004 I think this where we disagree. You say playing is the ONLY way. I say playimg is necesary, but not the ONLY way a player improves himself and MAY not be the first thing you do with a player to improve his game or make him good enough, Again read my photons and I will try to type slowly. JP CAN, SHOULD, and MUST play to have him develop into our QB of the future and to make the future happen as quickly as it can. The question we are discussing is when should he start. I say start him as soon as he is ready, not a moment sooner (because you can actually retard a player's development by throwing him to the wolves before he is ready) and not a moment later (because we Bills fans hurt bad watching Bledsoe's futility). If you disagree with this any think we should start him before he is ready you are even more nuts than I thought. The question we are debating is the question of IF he is in fact ready to start. I take the easy and true position I don't know. Did he have any post play swelling or range of motion limitations? I don't know. I take from him playing that he is physically healed and thats good news but I do not know if he is physically up to starting. Maybe you're a doc or have X-ray vision or something and do know how his body responded to NFL pounding after a bone fracture, Has he absorbed NFL knowledge so he can do good reads and translate them quickly and efficently to his teammates? I don't know. Most NFL rookies need a little time and some playbook reviewing and tape watching before they can do this. Its why you sit great athletes like Pennington and Vick, its why you sit a player drafted as highly as Carson Palmer. I suspecttha thanks to his injury and an opportunity to sit in the booth with Sam Wyche this part of JPs game and learning were greatly accelerated over playing. Are JPs mechnical issues we have all seen in some his best highlights of making off-balance throws and throwing off the wrong foot solved? I don't know. These issues are critical fo the modern QB in the oversystematized NFL. Patterns are such that they operate with the QB throwing the sme way everytime for the most part. The free-lancing of a Vick is exciting to watch but also seems difficult to deal with in the modern NFL, Even worse, off-balance passes can be completed against college level competition, but JP needs to raise his game a level for the pros. PT will help him do that, but in terms of a lot of the mechanics and improvement its NOT ONLY the game which is key but hours of boring repetition in practice. I think the good news for JP is that starting is not the only way to get PT. Mop-up duty helps and this is part of why he was thrown in Sunday. He will be facing NFL level speed and competition in practice and if Troy Vincent doesn't hurt him this can help as well. PT is essential and key. However, what I flat out disagree with you about is that starting is the only way to get PT and that he has nothing to gain from things other than PT. Again start Losman when he is ready, not a mpment before that and not a moment later. 120816[/snapback] Playing is the ONLY Way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ICE Posted November 17, 2004 Author Share Posted November 17, 2004 Of course, that's after taking 30% of the practice snaps for an entire season, not rehabbing an injury that he's still not completely over. But we'll ignore that little fact because it fits our latest tantrum. 120767[/snapback] 1) I have agreed with you dumbass! 2) Give JP ALL of the reps this week and from here on out at practice. Start him Against CLEVELAND at the latest. Play him for no less than 15 to 20 reps in the games. Between the two he can start against Cleveland. 3) go listen to JP's own words, the leg is FINE. it's in his head....even HE says so. but I do expect a payment for my expert medical opinion since I was right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alaska Darin Posted November 17, 2004 Share Posted November 17, 2004 1) I have agreed with you dumbass! 2) Give JP ALL of the reps this week and from here on out at practice. Start him Against CLEVELAND at the latest. Play him for no less than 15 to 20 reps in the games. Between the two he can start against Cleveland. 3) go listen to JP's own words, the leg is FINE. it's in his head....even HE says so. but I do expect a payment for my expert medical opinion since I was right. 120894[/snapback] 1. Which time? It's very hard to keep track. 2. Let me get this straight: Give one QB all the practice reps but put him on the field for 33% of the plays? Sorry, other guy and 10 position players - we don't care about you much. Don't quit your day job, Coach. 3. Uh, OK. Now I'm supposed to believe football players when they are injured? Keep telling yourself you were right about your medical "opinion". Was it more than six weeks? Yep. Amazing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ICE Posted November 17, 2004 Author Share Posted November 17, 2004 1. Which time? It's very hard to keep track.2. Let me get this straight: Give one QB all the practice reps but put him on the field for 33% of the plays? Sorry, other guy and 10 position players - we don't care about you much. Don't quit your day job, Coach. 3. Uh, OK. Now I'm supposed to believe football players when they are injured? Keep telling yourself you were right about your medical "opinion". Was it more than six weeks? Yep. Amazing. 120899[/snapback] I am going to kick you in the nuts someday you DO know this right. Losman had a 6 week injury. It is healed or they would have NEVER put him out there. Give Losman the reps, play him. Simple. No more BS on this subject. Either you give him the reps and play him now...or wait for him to take most of next year to develop. No way around it. This season for all intent and purposes is OVER. Play him now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alaska Darin Posted November 17, 2004 Share Posted November 17, 2004 I am going to kick you in the nuts someday you DO know this right. Losman had a 6 week injury. It is healed or they would have NEVER put him out there. Give Losman the reps, play him. Simple. No more BS on this subject. Either you give him the reps and play him now...or wait for him to take most of next year to develop. No way around it. This season for all intent and purposes is OVER. Play him now. 120907[/snapback] I'm shuddering in fear. He had a six week injury (according to you) that took well over 6 weeks to heal. He played week 10. Math, baby. Learn it. Live it. Know it. I'm not against playing him. We've had this conversation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cåblelady Posted November 17, 2004 Share Posted November 17, 2004 Give Losman the reps, play him. Simple. No more BS on this subject. Either you give him the reps and play him now...or wait for him to take most of next year to develop. No way around it. This season for all intent and purposes is OVER. Play him now. 120907[/snapback] Oh, sure. Stick JP with the cold-weather games. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ICE Posted November 17, 2004 Author Share Posted November 17, 2004 I'm shuddering in fear. He had a six week injury (according to you) that took well over 6 weeks to heal. He played week 10. Math, baby. Learn it. Live it. Know it. I'm not against playing him. We've had this conversation. 120910[/snapback] Dude, don't make me spear you... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alaska Darin Posted November 17, 2004 Share Posted November 17, 2004 Dude, don't make me spear you... 120923[/snapback] You related to Hoggy, too? Crazy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ICE Posted November 17, 2004 Author Share Posted November 17, 2004 You related to Hoggy, too? Crazy. 120925[/snapback] No I challenged him to a spearing match loooong ago....he chickened out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alaska Darin Posted November 17, 2004 Share Posted November 17, 2004 No I challenged him to a spearing match loooong ago....he chickened out. 120927[/snapback] Probably thought you'd wear a skirt and bring a telephone poll. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mead107 Posted November 17, 2004 Share Posted November 17, 2004 darwood the kick in the nuts is going to hurt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fake-Fat Sunny Posted November 17, 2004 Share Posted November 17, 2004 ILosman had a 6 week injury. It is healed or they would have NEVER put him out there. Give Losman the reps, play him. Simple. No more BS on this subject. Either you give him the reps and play him now...or wait for him to take most of next year to develop. No way around it. This season for all intent and purposes is OVER. Play him now. 120907[/snapback] Question for Dr. ICE. Does it make no difference in your diagnosis or your assessment of whether Losman is ready to start (or even play: 1. How his injury responded to the normal pounding of an NFL game as shown for example by any swelling at the site of the injury? 2. It makes no difference in assessing whether he is ready based on his range of motion a day or twwo after the game. It seems senseless to me to give him reps and start him regardless. Start him when he is ready to strart and not a moment sooner and not a moment later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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