By game 16 Jauron will have ruined Byrd

[Red]

I don't understand this post.

 

How is Jauron going to "ruin" Byrd?

[thebandit27]

I don't understand this post.

 

How is Jauron going to "ruin" Byrd?

 

I don't know either, but I assume that the OP is worried that Jauron will teach Byrd to play more conservatively, which would limit his opporunities to make plays.

 

But just by watching him, he's already playing about as far off the primary coverage as he can get, but he's still making plays, so I don't think it's a big deal.

 

Just my 1 cent.

[Bill from NYC]

Let's start with this: who are the "better teams in the league"? How about: Colts, Patriots, Steelers, Giants, and this year the Saints and Vikings. So let's now move to the question of "where do they spend the greatest amount of money"?

 

Colts - Peyton Manning has a $100M+ contract, and will likely get a new one in the next year or so that pays him $50M in guaranteed money. By contrast, their highest paid offensive lineman is C Jeff Saturday, who makes less than Geoff Hangartner ($3.7M vs. $4M). They start a rookie free agent at left tackle over former 2nd round pick Tony Ugoh.

 

Patriots - Tom Brady has a $100M+ contract. Their highest paid offensive lineman is LT Matt Light, who signed a 3-year extension worth $18M back in 2007. I know you can do the math, but (just for emphasis) $100M is far greater than $18M.

 

Steelers - Ben Roethlisberger has a $100M+ contract. Their highest paid offensive lineman is LT Max Starks, who is playing for the Transition tag value of $7.8M. Since their o-line is one of the worst in the NFL in pass protection, and is mediocre at best in run blocking, he's not likely to be retained following this season. Even at that, $100M is still far more than $7.8M.

 

Giants - Eli Manning just signed a $96M contract. Their highest paid offensive lineman is LT David Diehl (at least until they have to give Chris Snee a new deal--he'll probably get one worth $7M a year I'm guessing), who signed a 6-year, $33M extension following the 2007 season (a season in which--according to Stats, Inc.--he gave up the most sacks in the NFL, and yet the Giants won the Superbowl...weird). Again, $96M is far, far more of an investment than $33M.

 

Saints - Drew Brees signed a 6-year, $60M deal with New Orleans in 2007. Their highest paid lineman is LT Jammal Brown, who's playing on his rookie deal worth around $14M over 5 years. They probably won't re-sign him when it expires, considering that his backup (Jermon Bushrod) has been starting since week 1 and has played fine in his absence. Even so, $60M is a significantly larger sum than $14M.

 

Vikings - Brett Favre's deal is worth $12M per year. Steve Hutchinson, the team's highest paid offensive lineman, signed a 7-year, $49M deal following the 2006 season. They also pay Bryant McKinnie about $5M per year. So finally, we've found one that's close. I guess, for your part, 1 out of 6 isn't bad, right?

 

Quarterbacks sell tickets. Left Tackles do not. Take away nuts like me, R.Rich, Lori (sorry Lori) and Badolbilz, how many fans enter RWS intent on watching RG play that we cannot see on a TV screen? QBs will always be the highest paid NFL players. If you don't believe me, ask him. Your post implies that he is of more value to the Rams in terms of winning games than was Orlando Pace in his prime because he is paid more. Is this really where you are going?

 

Think back if you will to most superbowl winning teams....for example the old Steel Curtain, Ravens, Raiders, Hogs, Giants, Cowboys, etc. These teams had great lines, wouldn't you say?

They lost the game, but the Seahawks went to the superbowl with Hasselback as qb. The left side of their OL was Walter Jones and Hutchinson. Who would YOU credit with getting them to the dance? Hasselback? He is good but these guys were stars.

 

The Bills have neglected the OL for more than a decade and they are consistently losing. They drafted well in 09, but traded their very good LT in the process. They focus on defensive backs, gadget players and receivers. Yes they need a qb, but not if he is going to get his brains smashed in on a consistent basis. Salaries mean little when one is laying on a hospital bed.

[zazie]

I don't understand this post.

 

How is Jauron going to "ruin" Byrd?

How did he manage to ruin TE, Lynch, Poz, Whitner, etc.etc.? By coaching mediocrity and softness.

 

Listen to TEs press conferences from his rookie and early second year and to some from earlier this year. The attitude difference goes beyond noticable it is remarkable. He has taken on DJs losing personality. And now he too is a loser although he at least made some bank prior, whatever a 3rd round qbs first contract won him with the risers that must have come from starting 30 games.

 

DJ ruined this guy as surely as he has ruined 2009, 2008, and 2007 Bills seasons.

 

And the jerkoff knows and openly admits it.

[Cynical]

I think the obvious needs stated. Essentially, if you have one, you do not necessarily need the other.

If a team has a great OL (and running attack), then a great QB is not needed.

If a team has great QB, then a great OL is not needed.

 

As bad as this team is, would anybody disagree the Bills would perform better if they had a better QB, even with the same OL?

[mrags]

Thanks, although I still feel bad about the abominable thread-jacking.

 

You werent the one that jacked it tho.

[thebandit27]

Quarterbacks sell tickets. Left Tackles do not. Take away nuts like me, R.Rich, Lori (sorry Lori) and Badolbilz, how many fans enter RWS intent on watching RG play that we cannot see on a TV screen? QBs will always be the highest paid NFL players. If you don't believe me, ask him. Your post implies that he is of more value to the Rams in terms of winning games than was Orlando Pace in his prime because he is paid more. Is this really where you are going?

 

Think back if you will to most superbowl winning teams....for example the old Steel Curtain, Ravens, Raiders, Hogs, Giants, Cowboys, etc. These teams had great lines, wouldn't you say?

They lost the game, but the Seahawks went to the superbowl with Hasselback as qb. The left side of their OL was Walter Jones and Hutchinson. Who would YOU credit with getting them to the dance? Hasselback? He is good but these guys were stars.

 

The Bills have neglected the OL for more than a decade and they are consistently losing. They drafted well in 09, but traded their very good LT in the process. They focus on defensive backs, gadget players and receivers. Yes they need a qb, but not if he is going to get his brains smashed in on a consistent basis. Salaries mean little when one is laying on a hospital bed.

 

(you may have missed my response to your last post, so please feel free to go back and review it before reading this one...okay, read on)

 

I humbly disagree, Bill. Winning sells tickets, not QBs, not LTs, not DBs, etc.

 

You can't use one example (Rams) to discount several examples of QB being more important. The last 6 Superbowls were won by teams with great QBs and average (at best) OLs. The only exception I can think of is the 2007-08 Giants, who had a very good run blocking line (as did the 2005-06 Steelers, but they didn't really show it statistically during the regular season, they were much better in the playoffs).

 

Comparing the past to today is not a valid comparison, in my opinion. Even if it were, most of the teams you mentioned had great to hall-of-fame caliber QBs (Bradshaw, Stabler, Simms, Aikman), so it's hard to use that as a basis to debunk my point. Regarding Seattle, they had Jones and Hutchinson together for 5 years before they made the Superbowl, it was only when Hasselbeck emerged as a top-5 QB in 2005-06 (3rd in league in QB rating) when they finally won a playoff game. Also, don't forget last season's NFC Superbowl representative, who had a pedestrian offensive line but a HOF-caliber QB.

 

While I agree that Buffalo has neglected their offensive line (hard to argue that they haven't), my point has always been that their biggest problem stems from not having identified a franchise QB. Had they gotten it right with Beldsoe, Losman, Edwards, etc., the OL wouldn't be nearly as big an issue, as evidenced by the guys I mentioned.

[Bill from NYC]

I think the obvious needs stated. Essentially, if you have one, you do not necessarily need the other.

If a team has a great OL (and running attack), then a great QB is not needed.

If a team has great QB, then a great OL is not needed.

 

As bad as this team is, would anybody disagree the Bills would perform better if they had a better QB, even with the same OL?

 

I see your point, but can we focus on for a moment on just how bad this line is? It consists of a decent center, 2 rookies, a Detroit Lion castoff, and little Tinker Bell. It is hard to cover 1 hole in a line. Teams have to account for this. Our entire OL is one huge pit.

The rookies will improve, but you cannot hide 2 terrible OTs in the NFL. It isn't possible.

 

Now, would a great qb win more games behind this mess? Maybe so, and then he would wind up in a local hospital.

[Bill from NYC]

While I agree that Buffalo has neglected their offensive line (hard to argue that they haven't), my point has always been that their biggest problem stems from not having identified a franchise QB. Had they gotten it right with Beldsoe, Losman, Edwards, etc., the OL wouldn't be nearly as big an issue, as evidenced by the guys I mentioned.

 

I have no real quarrel with the above, but I also think there is a middle ground.

 

Again, there are many different types of sacks. You know them all; there is no need to list them. Wrt the Bills, there is often an unimpeded stampede (sorry to use that word) to the QB. I will no longer try to sell Trent Edwards to anyone, but did you see the plays he was hurt on? A QB just cannot take this kind of punishment. His actual life is at stake.

I see this; you see this, and there has never been a true effort to change it the right way. I never thought Losman was any good, but when he needed help, they drafted Whitner, McCargo, Youboty and Simpson. Then they gave 48 million to a guard who couldn't care less.

 

We can certainly agree to disagree but imo, Peyton Manning is still in one piece, let alone an all time great in large part because they Polian had already drafted Glenn and Meadows before they selected him. I honestly think that he would agree.

[Cynical]

I see your point, but can we focus on for a moment on just how bad this line is? It consists of a decent center, 2 rookies, a Detroit Lion castoff, and little Tinker Bell. It is hard to cover 1 hole in a line. Teams have to account for this. Our entire OL is one huge pit.

The rookies will improve, but you cannot hide 2 terrible OTs in the NFL. It isn't possible.

 

Now, would a great qb win more games behind this mess? Maybe so, and then he would wind up in a local hospital.

 

1. Both the Bills OL and QB suck, so we can't just "fix" one.

 

But you did get my point. A better QB would result in a better performance. And the same could be said for the OL. Get a better line, and even Edwards might generate an extra win.

 

With that said, even if the Bills got a great QB and a great OL, they would still be held back by incompetent coaching.

[Guest dog14787]

So what you're saying is that, despite all of the evidence to the contrary--which I have presented several times in this very thread (on this very page no less)--you're going to stick to that faulty line of logic?

 

Here it is, one last time, in simple English:

 

There are plenty of statistics (i.e. offensive rankings), game results (i.e. Superbowl victories), and current performance indicators (i.e. YPC, YPA) that completely disprove the point you continuously try to make, and yet you argue without providing any relevant facts or reason.

 

Your belligerence in the face of being (quite literally) proven wrong about needing a good offensive line for a QB

(or an offense, for that matter) to succeed is astounding. The summation of your points has been:

 

- Well other QBs scramble and Trent doesn't

- Jim Kelly used to talk up his offensive linemen and take them to dinner

- Owners of the better teams spend all their money on the offensive line

 

Since I've already debunked the first 2, I'll now rip the third point to shreds:

 

Let's start with this: who are the "better teams in the league"? How about: Colts, Patriots, Steelers, Giants, and this year the Saints and Vikings. So let's now move to the question of "where do they spend the greatest amount of money"?

 

Colts - Peyton Manning has a $100M+ contract, and will likely get a new one in the next year or so that pays him $50M in guaranteed money. By contrast, their highest paid offensive lineman is C Jeff Saturday, who makes less than Geoff Hangartner ($3.7M vs. $4M). They start a rookie free agent at left tackle over former 2nd round pick Tony Ugoh.

 

Patriots - Tom Brady has a $100M+ contract. Their highest paid offensive lineman is LT Matt Light, who signed a 3-year extension worth $18M back in 2007. I know you can do the math, but (just for emphasis) $100M is far greater than $18M.

 

Steelers - Ben Roethlisberger has a $100M+ contract. Their highest paid offensive lineman is LT Max Starks, who is playing for the Transition tag value of $7.8M. Since their o-line is one of the worst in the NFL in pass protection, and is mediocre at best in run blocking, he's not likely to be retained following this season. Even at that, $100M is still far more than $7.8M.

 

Giants - Eli Manning just signed a $96M contract. Their highest paid offensive lineman is LT David Diehl (at least until they have to give Chris Snee a new deal--he'll probably get one worth $7M a year I'm guessing), who signed a 6-year, $33M extension following the 2007 season (a season in which--according to Stats, Inc.--he gave up the most sacks in the NFL, and yet the Giants won the Superbowl...weird). Again, $96M is far, far more of an investment than $33M.

 

Saints - Drew Brees signed a 6-year, $60M deal with New Orleans in 2007. Their highest paid lineman is LT Jammal Brown, who's playing on his rookie deal worth around $14M over 5 years. They probably won't re-sign him when it expires, considering that his backup (Jermon Bushrod) has been starting since week 1 and has played fine in his absence. Even so, $60M is a significantly larger sum than $14M.

 

Vikings - Brett Favre's deal is worth $12M per year. Steve Hutchinson, the team's highest paid offensive lineman, signed a 7-year, $49M deal following the 2006 season. They also pay Bryant McKinnie about $5M per year. So finally, we've found one that's close. I guess, for your part, 1 out of 6 isn't bad, right?

 

Ok, I'm tired of beating up on your argument now. So feel free to sell me another line of bull, and when I have time I'll come back and prove that wrong too. Either that, or you can start responding to even one, just one, of the many facts that prove your point wrong. Sound fair?

 

You pick one player, the starting QB, more often then not the highest paid player on the team, but there's 5 starting lineman, not one, and allot of money goes out to them 5 linemen if you want to have a decent O-line and Offense that is.

 

The O-line is what it is, the notion a QB makes it better doesn't even make sense. Put an above average QB with an average O-line and you get good results normally, but it doesn't change the average O-line. So why the better stats and results you ask? because the QB's better that's why, duh, good grief, get a brain.

 

Do you honestly think other then Aaron Rodgers and Big Ben, that your train of thought even works at all when we aren't talking about average or decent O-line, we are talking about one of the worse, the Buffalo Bills O-line. Because this is what you are trying to defend right, the Bills O-line vs our QB's.

 

You think bringing in another QB will magically take care of our O-line problems correct? Is this what you are trying to convey?( I think the notion is hilarious)

 

In my opinion an above average QB behind an above average O-line gives you a championship caliber Offense, just take a look at the Colts, Pats or Giants who know beyond a doubt, protecting their QB wins football games and championships.

( keeps their star QB on the playing field) You can bet Belicheats biggest concern above all else is protecting the poster boy of the NFL and his QB, Tom Brady, because he knows in doings so it gives the Pats a good shot at another championship.

 

To bad we couldn't ask Aaron Rodgers who's playing behind a horrible O-line his opinion on your idea of how he's supposedly making his O-line perform better, we would probably get a real good laugh out of him as he limps along in pain...

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

Matt Cassel on the Pats vs Cassel on KC seems to be a good example of how an average QB can perform with a good line then a bad line. Carson Palmer stats are worth a look too.

 

I have also seen the scenario where a repeatedly breeched line causes a good QB to look quite bad. Payton has crumbled in quite a few playoff games after getting thumped repeatedly, and was rendered ineffective. Elway had the same problem early in his career. Also there was a counter point made that a good line helps the RB more than the QB, but if you can establish the run, which the Steerler almost always do, it helps the QB quite a lot.

 

I think what was always the hope for TE, was that he might turn out to be an average to slightly above average reliable starter, able to LEAD the team to WIN an occasional game, while effectively managing most. Granted, extraordinary players can succeed despite bad coaching, bad lines, poor receivers, etc., but those guys are few and far between... as we are all painfully aware

[Bill from NYC]

Matt Cassel on the Pats vs Cassel on KC seems to be a good example of how an average QB can perform with a good line then a bad line. Carson Palmer stats are worth a look too.

 

I have also seen the scenario where a repeatedly breeched line causes a good QB to look quite bad. Payton has crumbled in quite a few playoff games after getting thumped repeatedly, and was rendered ineffective. Elway had the same problem early in his career. Also there was a counter point made that a good line helps the RB more than the QB, but if you can establish the run, which the Steerler almost always do, it helps the QB quite a lot.

 

I think what was always the hope for TE, was that he might turn out to be an average to slightly above average reliable starter, able to LEAD the team to WIN an occasional game, while effectively managing most. Granted, extraordinary players can succeed despite bad coaching, bad lines, poor receivers, etc., but those guys are few and far between... as we are all painfully aware

 

Good post.

 

Flutie was a notable exception imo. He was too small for the pocket and so athletic that he thrived on broken plays, and who breaks down more than the Bills OL?

[thebandit27]

Matt Cassel on the Pats vs Cassel on KC seems to be a good example of how an average QB can perform with a good line then a bad line. Carson Palmer stats are worth a look too.

 

I have also seen the scenario where a repeatedly breeched line causes a good QB to look quite bad. Payton has crumbled in quite a few playoff games after getting thumped repeatedly, and was rendered ineffective. Elway had the same problem early in his career. Also there was a counter point made that a good line helps the RB more than the QB, but if you can establish the run, which the Steerler almost always do, it helps the QB quite a lot.

 

I think what was always the hope for TE, was that he might turn out to be an average to slightly above average reliable starter, able to LEAD the team to WIN an occasional game, while effectively managing most. Granted, extraordinary players can succeed despite bad coaching, bad lines, poor receivers, etc., but those guys are few and far between... as we are all painfully aware

 

1) The Patriots gave up 48 sacks last season, so I dare say their offensive line last season was far from good. The biggest detriment to Cassel's play is the entire season of tape that defensive coordinators have on him.

 

2) You can make the Pittsburgh point all that you want, but they ranked 23rd in the NFL in rushing last season and gave up 49 sacks. Not much help to the QB there.

 

3) To win in the NFL, as in win the Superbowl, a team needs a great QB, not a game manager. The ONLY times in the past 10 years where that hasn't been true were cases of extreme defensive dominance (Tampa Bay and Baltimore). Every other year from 2000 on, here have been your Superbowl winning QBs:

 

1993 - Aikman (1st ballot HOFer)

1994 - Aikman (1st ballot HOFer)

1995 - Young (1st ballot HOFer)

1996 - Aikman (1st ballot HOFer)

1997 - Favre (1st ballot HOFer)

1998 - Elway (1st ballot HOFer)

1999 - Elway (1st ballot HOFer)

2000 - Warner (borderline HOFer)

2001 - Dilfer (note Baltimore's #1, all world defense)

2002 - Brady (1st ballot HOFer)

2003 - B. Johnson (note TB's #1, all world defense)

2004 - Brady (1st ballot HOFer)

2005 - Brady (1st ballot HOFer)

2006 - Roethlisberger (potential 1st ballot HOFer)

2007 - P. Manning (1st ballot HOFer)

2008 - E. Manning (ok, not a HOFer, but at least a Pro Bowl QB)

2009 - Roethlisberger (potential 1st ballot HOFer)

 

It's not the OL, it's the QB.

[mikey98277]

Well in xbox360 version of Madden10, DJ automatically removes 5 points of awareness for every player on his team, so its not just us bills fans that see it!!

[BB2004]

Just like Edwards, Roscoe, Witner, etc I am betting that by game 16 Byrd will be concentrating on his left foot being in the right place, and he is not deep enough on the snap on a trap play and will as the rest have lose his confidence and never intercept another ball. Stop using your abiltiy Byrd before Dickie gets you.

Jauron coaches in such a negative fashion that Byrd is destined to follow in the footsteps of many....

 

Question, except for money what reason is there that Dickie is actually still the coach...

 

I respectfully disagree. There are a few special players out there that have a nose for the football and despite the good or bad coaching will continue to make very good plays. I do not think that Jauron will have ruined Byrd whatsoever by the end of the season. I actually think Jauron would be a good secondary coach if given the opportunity.

[Paup 1995MVP]

This whole argument is stupid because we have lousy QB play, AND poor O line play most of the time. Our OT's are the worst pass blocking pair of tackles in the league bar none. That being said, I agree that a good QB will make up for bad O line play most of the time. Trent has decent time on a lot of plays and is afraid to throw down the field. Simple as that. He doesn't have the stones to be an NFL starter. We can be a very good team with a good QB and a mediocre O line. We can not be a very good team with a good O line and a mediocre to poor QB.

[mousetrap08]

Maybe you should ask Jim Kelly why he was notorious for taking his O-line out to dinner and was always careful and very specific when he complemented his Lineman for the success of the Offense.

 

It all starts up front, some folks get it and some folks simply do not...

He was also notorius for calling out players on his o-line when they didn't perform.House Ballard was made an example out of when he gave up a sack and got kelly's shoulder seperated and was lost for a few weeks.

[Orton's Arm]

Byrd has a REAL coach in his Dad I doubt seriously that DJ will have any ill effect on him. On the other Hand his sports hernia might do him in for the season.

In the long run, that injury could help this franchise. Byrd is the kind of player who, by himself, can make the difference between winning and losing a football game. Having him play the second half of the season could easily generate two additional wins. Those meaningless wins won't help us do anything this year, and will hurt us on draft day. This is a draft rich in left tackles; and we need to get the best one we can. (Or a quarterback, if there's a good one available when we pick.)