LabattBlue Posted August 27, 2004 Share Posted August 27, 2004 Paul Hamm has now been asked to give back his gold medal........I say sure when the Soviets give back their 1972 Basketball Gold Medal. 8939[/snapback] Absolutely fugging correct. We were robbed in 72. Screw the USOC, you bunch of corrupt stevestojan heads! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
d_wag Posted August 27, 2004 Share Posted August 27, 2004 hamm earned a silver medal and does not deserve a gold......why he would want to keep it is beyond me......he's a joke, just like his medal..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MadBuffaloDisease Posted August 27, 2004 Share Posted August 27, 2004 Totally different. The judge's "judgment" error is part of the game (like when Andre Reed stepped two feet out of bounds and Reich found him for the TD in the Bills/Houston game- he was ineligible but the ref. didn't see it/chose to ignore it). An easily correctable non-judgment error that was not made *during* the routine should be corrected. Imagine if the computer that averages the scores made a miscalculation. That's a technical glitch, not a judgment mistake. This was the same. Hamm is a poor sport. We all know he didn't win. Still, he'll keep his tarnished gold like the punk he wasn't when he worked so hard to earn the silver. 9166[/snapback] The judges "erred" in saying the start value was 9.9. Therefore Hamm keeps the medal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OGTEleven Posted August 27, 2004 Share Posted August 27, 2004 I think he should give it back. Judgement errors, missed calls and "possible changed routines" are different than simple, straghtforward math errors. Winning on a technicality because someone was late filing a protest is lame. I'm sure it would be heartbreaking to have a gold in your hand and have to give it back, but if it is the right thing to do, it should be done. The saddest thing is that the guy should be IMMENSELY PROUD of the silver medal that he earned. 72 hoops, Roy Jones and other examples all fall into the category of "2 wrongs, don't make a right". With all of that said the IOC is handling this terribly. They should either switch the official results or affirm them. They have no business shifting the pressure to Hamm or even the US organization. The mistake was theirs. They should correct it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Campy Posted August 27, 2004 Share Posted August 27, 2004 And in the bigger scheme of things, how many of you REALLY give a stevestojan about that pseudo-man's medal and his quasi-sport? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevestojan Posted August 27, 2004 Share Posted August 27, 2004 In all honesty, I think he should give it back. We all know the judges missed a possible deduction when the Korean was up, and that is Hamms justification. But that is part of the Olympics. Human Judges. The thing is, I bet if you watched Hamms routine 1000 times, you could find other things to deduct, too. But starting the Korean off with a lower score is just wrong. That has NOTHING to do with how he performed, and all to do with a wrong number being pushed in. If all the judges missed some things in his routine that could have lowered his score, Im sure they missed a few things in Hamms, too. But the starting value was entered incorrectly. Hamm would have been stripped on the medal had the Koreans found this out 24 hours before they did. But because of that technicality he is going to wear that Gold with Pride? ? ? I would give it back - he simply doesnt deserve it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sweet baboo Posted August 27, 2004 Share Posted August 27, 2004 i'll be pissed if he does give it back...!@#$ being the bigger man...the IOC wouldn't be magnimous about it and award dual golds...punishing Paul Hamm for this is stevestojan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nobody Posted August 27, 2004 Share Posted August 27, 2004 And in the bigger scheme of things, how many of you REALLY give a stevestojan about that pseudo-man's medal and his quasi-sport? 9232[/snapback] Exactly - it's men's gymnastics we're talking about. Who cares. Now if we were talking about women's beach volleyball.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MadBuffaloDisease Posted August 27, 2004 Share Posted August 27, 2004 Sorry but judging flaws in a routine is as straightfoward as having the correct starting value. A mistake costs points that are deducted from that start value. The judges missed mistakes that would have cost more points than the starting value would have given back, and would have kept the SK guy at bronze in any case. If you want to go back and review the incorrect starting value, then you are well within rights to review the flaws that were missed, since we're rewriting history and all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuffaloBob Posted August 27, 2004 Share Posted August 27, 2004 I heard an interview on Sports Radio in Houston yesterday with one of the coaches of the US Olympic team. He basically said that EVERYONE knows what the rules are and how to deal with these issues. He said that this start time error thing happens all the time. He said that as coaches of the US team, they have printouts of every team member's routines and start values, and they always watch to see that the start values are correctly assessed. He said that when they are not correctly assessed, they are always right on top of it, filing a protest immediately. He said sometimes, they don't win their appeal, as even the start values, while somewhat standardized, still have some subjectivity to them insofar as how certain features of the routine are graded and categorized. Anyway, he said that everyone knows how this is done, and there is simply no excuse whatsoever that the Korean team should not have seen this and appealed or protested within the allotted time. These are field of play judgments for which there are strict rules, rules which are necessary to create finality in a sport where there is so much subjectivity involved. He said that to reverse this decision, there would have to be an outright amendment to the rules for field of play and that this would be akin to seeking an amendment to the Constitution. This is not a matter of a machine or a human not addig up the scores correctly. It was an error in assessing the start value which indicates degree of difficulty. These scores are NOT automatically provided to the judges, but they are assessed every time the gymnast is set to start a routine. It was not a matter of enetring the wrong value when they had the right one available, it wa about a judge looking at a routine and assessing that it was a 9.9 and not a 10.0 level of difficulty. The Koreans should have recognized this error in judgement and protested when they were supposed to as the rules clearly dictate. They did not. They lose. Hamm wins. He should keep his gold medal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PromoTheRobot Posted August 27, 2004 Share Posted August 27, 2004 Let me tell you a story... Back in the day, there was an Ivy League college football team that was undefeated. In their last game of the year, they were losing and needed a touchdown to win. They scored on 4th down with no time left to preserve their undefeated season. A few days later, the team realized that they were given an extra down in that final drive by mistake. The team went to the NCAA, revealed the error, and FORFEITED the game, ruining a perfect season. No one made them do it. The refs did not know they made a mistake. But the team felt they could not be proud of a perfect season they did not earn. Just a few years ago, Colorado won a game on the last play with a mistaken extra down over Missouri in a game they needed for a bowl bid. The coach of Colorada said "tough" and took the win anyway. The point I am making is that if it were me, I would not want a gold medal that I won by mistake. I know there are some arguments going round that dispute whther the South Korean would have won gold anyway, but I think they are just trying to cover for Paul Hamm. Personally, I am disappointed in Hamm. This was a golden opportunity to show the world that Americans honor justice over victory. It would have been a noble, honorable gesture to personally hand the medal to the South Korean gymnast. Hamm could have been a legend for doing the right thing. Now he will forever have the cloud hanging over his gold medal. PTR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smoker2Buffalo Posted August 27, 2004 Share Posted August 27, 2004 Hamm should keep it!!! The mistake was in judging the Korean. There was nothing wrong in judging him, so why should he have to give it up? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sweet baboo Posted August 27, 2004 Share Posted August 27, 2004 Personally, I am disappointed in Hamm. This was a golden opportunity to show the world that Americans honor justice over victory. It would have been a noble, honorable gesture to personally hand the medal to the South Korean gymnast. Hamm could have been a legend for doing the right thing. Now he will forever have the cloud hanging over his gold medal. in case you haven't noticed, the rest of the world doesn't care...they'd prefer we were some evil empire Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
syhuang Posted August 27, 2004 Share Posted August 27, 2004 The starting point is given by another set of judges, after they view the whole routine. Therefore, this is a judgement error as well. This is not like a referee gives a filed goal only 2 points. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuffaloBob Posted August 27, 2004 Share Posted August 27, 2004 Let me tell you a story... Back in the day, there was an Ivy League college football team that was undefeated. In their last game of the year, they were losing and needed a touchdown to win. They scored on 4th down with no time left to preserve their undefeated season. A few days later, the team realized that they were given an extra down in that final drive by mistake. The team went to the NCAA, revealed the error, and FORFEITED the game, ruining a perfect season. No one made them do it. The refs did not know they made a mistake. But the team felt they could not be proud of a perfect season they did not earn. Just a few years ago, Colorado won a game on the last play with a mistaken extra down over Missouri in a game they needed for a bowl bid. The coach of Colorada said "tough" and took the win anyway. The point I am making is that if it were me, I would not want a gold medal that I won by mistake. I know there are some arguments going round that dispute whther the South Korean would have won gold anyway, but I think they are just trying to cover for Paul Hamm. Personally, I am disappointed in Hamm. This was a golden opportunity to show the world that Americans honor justice over victory. It would have been a noble, honorable gesture to personally hand the medal to the South Korean gymnast. Hamm could have been a legend for doing the right thing. Now he will forever have the cloud hanging over his gold medal. PTR 9269[/snapback] Well, let's change the hypothetical a bit. Suppose instead of an extra down, the team was given an obviously uncalled for pass interference penalty that gave them a first and goal from the one with zero time left on the clock. Do they give up the win then?? I would venture to guess the answer would be NO. You see it happen all of the time in football, baseball, etc. When errors in judgment are made, you protest immediately and hope that there is some recourse for it, such as another umpire with a better view or an instant replay, or in the case of these start values, a chance to reconsider the assessed value at the time of the routine. This start value mistake was NOT a perfunctory error such as keeping track of the number of downs, it was a mistake in judgment. While start values are somewhat standardized, they are not without judgment and these values are assessed in the judgment of the officials every time the routine is performed. The standards of difficulty MUST be applied correctly to the given list of features in the routine. That is why such a judgment and assessment must be protested immediately, within a certain amount of time. While I do not disagree that he could have made himself some kind of a hero, it would set a bad precedent that every time a gymnast or his/her team fails to lodge protests in the manner perscribed by rules that supposedly all must follow, they can simply reassess the judgment of the routines and pressure the poor bastard who won the medal to give it up anyway, outside of the rules. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuffaloBob Posted August 27, 2004 Share Posted August 27, 2004 The starting point is given by another set of judges, after they view the whole routine. Therefore, this is a judgement error as well. This is not like a referee gives a filed goal only 2 points. 9290[/snapback] Exactly my point in my two previouos posts. While a start time should be fairly standard, especially when the routine was already performed before and given a certain start value, the fact is these start values are judged and assessed each time the routine is performed and more than likely by different judges. This is why it is considered a field of play judgment that must be protested immediately. Everyone in this business KNOWS this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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