Paup 1995MVP

July 15

5 hours ago, aristocrat said:

Jesus, asleep at the wheel is insane. Get an Uber or a driver man

Didn't that happen to Bruce Smith in Virginia Beach many years ago?

As for Addison, 6-8 game suspension? A lot of these young guys are really stupid. I guess their parents don't really show them the way. King Roger will have to take their place.

July 15

17 hours ago, Mikie2times said:

Pound for pound Winfield was the best open field tackler I’ve ever seen.

He was just an excellent football player. Not HOF excellent. But got the most out of his abilities. Seemed like a good guy. Just super solid. Wish we had never let him go.

I also loved Terrance McGhee. Another super solid NFL player. Got the most out of his ability. Good team guy. Great kick returner. You just have to love guys who just bring their best week in and week out.

July 14

On 7/12/2024 at 6:45 PM, Logic said:

Absolutely.

The thing that got me into the NFL as a kid was when the NFL Network would run marathons of the old NFL Films "Team Yearbooks" and "America's Greatest Games".

The sound of Fascenda's voice, the dramatic music, the slow motion...I fell in love.

Probably the most famous and well known example, but this absolutely cast a spell on me as a kid:

As far as trying to educate myself about the game of football...I do my best. I'm somewhat of a completist, and I love knowing everything there is to know about the past, present, and future of the game. You show me a "Top 10" or "Top 100" list or historical football documentary of any kind and I'm devouring it.

We also live in era where we are incredibly blessed by the wealth of old game footage and information available at the click of a mouse. Full games, player highlight packages, old broadcasts complete with the commercials, everything. One's ability to consume classic NFL is limited only by their appetite for it and their amount of free time.

In recent years, the three books I enjoyed the most and found the most informative in terms of educating me about the history of professional football are listed below. I highly recommend all three! I like to read them during football season, on the commercial breaks during games, because I otherwise I pace nervously.

That video "Autumn Wind is a Raider" gives me chills. Other than the Bills, would there have been any team better to play NFL football for then the 1970's Raiders??!! Just tough mean and talented. Maybe the Greatest Show on Turf Rams as well. I loved watching Kurt Warner throw a football. So smooth.

On 7/12/2024 at 8:05 PM, JP51 said:

I am actually friends with him on FB he was the one who reminded me of the bruise bros they had a poster he is real down to earth

I will let my mother know. She will get a kick out of that. She is still a big Bills fan. Lives in Toronto and is 83. Had seasons tickets until about 5 years ago. Would drive down w her boyfriend from Toronto for most of the games. But he has gotten sick and old. So she stays in Toronto and watches all the games on TV. And all the Blue Jays and Raptors games. LOL Last game I believe she went to was the blizzard game against the Colts.

July 14

On 7/12/2024 at 5:57 PM, amprov56 said:

Passed away in 2013; the thing about these players from that era is they were just normal working Joes who lived like most of the fans did and interacted with them like normal people. The fans of that era regardless of the Bills performance were not angry and vengeful, they just waited for next year and rooted hard for all of the players, they were part of the "blue collar" community! The AFL and the 1960's Bills provided alot of much needed relief for people that worked hard!

Thanks for those tidbits on George Saimes and how the 1960's Bills interacted with the community. That is really cool.

On 7/12/2024 at 7:57 PM, oldmanfan said:

Butch Byrd was a CB. He and Booker Egerson were both great. Tre White was great. And Taron Johnson is a great slot CB. But after listing these I indicated I’d put Robert James in place of Taron. All 4 of these guys were better than Winfield or Odomes, although they both were very good.

Robert James was great back in the 70's. For some reason I remember the game he blew out his knee. And I think it ended his career? Was it a preseason game? I was a kid and I have this vision of it happening at night. I believe I was watching at my grandparents house in Detroit. Weird memory of being a 9 year old kid..

July 14

13 hours ago, billsbackto81 said:

Really surprised no one is talking about our LB situation. After Milano and Bernard there's really not that much to get excited about.

Dorian Williams. He plays fast. And once he learns the pro game some more, he will be making plays all over the field.

July 12

On 7/11/2024 at 3:03 PM, Logic said:

In truth, I'm too young to have watched guys like Saimes, Joe D, and Billy Shaw. I love digging into the history of Bills greats via books, Youtube clips, game highlights, etc, and I try to educate myself on the history of the franchise and its greatest players to the best of my abilities. But surely those who are old enough to have actually watched the Bills from their inception onward might have different and/or more well informed opinions.

I based a lot of my list on professional accolades (All-Pros and Pro Bowls), Hall of Fame and Wall of Fame enshrinements, and career statistics accrued as Buffalo Bills.

It explains how a guy like Conlan made my list over a guy like Milano or Cowart. If I was to base my list purely on the eye test and on guys I actually saw play in my lifetime, it would look quite different.

That's very interesting Logic. You sound like a real student of the Bills going way back. I moved to Buffalo at the start of 1976 when I was 10 and became a fan at that point. I remember a guy named Terry Miller who came on board as a RB out of Oklahoma State in I believe in 1978 under Chuck Knox.

My first game I went to was in 1977 against the Colts. It was really cold, and we sucked. Gave up like 10 sacks back when the Colts had a great front 4. Dutton Ehrmann Cook and Barnes I think were their names. They just destroyed Fergy that cold day, while me and my buddy froze.

Are you a big student of the entire NFL? I was watching hilites the other night on You Tube of the Chargers 1970 season. LOL. Love the music and John Facenda narrating the show.

On 7/11/2024 at 4:08 PM, amprov56 said:

I finally agree with MJS

Excellent thought provoking post, I did see Saimes play and he was the best FS in the game!

mine too, seen them all, great players and part of the old school!

That's interesting about Saimes. He is on the wall so he must have been a force. Is he alive still?

July 12

On 7/11/2024 at 2:55 PM, JP51 said:

They were and then Mark Maddox I believe Cowart Rogers and Maddox called themselves the "Bruise Brothers" LOL... I hesitated on Paup only because today he would be defined as an "Edge Rusher" but back then he was an LB with minimal coverage duties LOL... but he rolled 19 sacks that year still a team record I believe.

I believe Maddox was more back in the Super Bowl years. But those numbers for Paup in 1995 were off the chart. He was a hell of a player for Green Bay and then the Bills. Too bad he took the money and left for the Jags. A great player. Not HOF great. But still had a really good career.

An anecdote about Maddox. My mother used to work for the Western NY Blind Association as a social worker. She told me she helped one of Maddox's relatives who was blind. Said she met him, and he was a real nice guy.

July 12

22 hours ago, FLFan said:

Terrible would be too strong a word to describe Jackson as a QB. Overrated, second tier, and limited would be better descriptors when accessing Jackson as an NFL QB.

I think you summed up Lamar perfectly. For whatever reason, the Ravens w John Harbaugh and Lamar seem to be the most beloved franchise in the NFL. Followed closely by the Mike Tomlin led Steelers. Those two can do no wrong per the media and the networks. Boo on that!!

I would argue that Mike Vick overall was better then Lamar. When Vick played defenses were actually allowed to beat up QB's and WR's. And he still was an amazing talent to watch.

July 11

1 minute ago, JP51 said:

Couple of other LBs could be considered.... Spikes, Haslett, Sam Rogers, Shane Nelson, Eugene Marve, Spielman, Paup.... lots of good ones over the years.

Nice call on Shane Nelson and Jim Haslett. They were really bad ass players back when playing LB, you needed to be a bad ass. Both were junior Jack Lamberts, for lack of a better reference. And I loved Spielman and Paup. Both special players. Spielman is an all timer, both from college and pro. And he was a riot as an announcer. (And that's coming from a Michigan guy.) And I still wear my #95 Paup jersey for special games. I bought that when I was in Buffalo at the start of the 1996 season. Got in a big fistfight at the Mighty Taco on Transit road late on the night before the Bills-Pats game that weekend. LOL Sam Rogers had some game as well. The 4 LB's we had then (Cowart, Newman, Holocek and Rogers) were a force.

July 11

3 hours ago, Logic said:

I'm bored at work and absolutely refuse to get started on my Excel spreadsheets, so I decided to play the "Bills positional Mt Rushmore" game using the criteria cited. No one asked for this, but here it is anyway. Sorry, employer.

QB
Josh Allen
Jim Kelly

Jack Kemp

Joe Ferguson

RB
Thurman Thomas

OJ Simpson

Joe Cribbs

Fred Jackson

FB

Cookie Gilchrist
Sam Gash

Larry Centers
Jim Braxton

WR
Andre Reed
Eric Moulds
Elbert Dubenion
Stefon Diggs

TE
Ernie Warlick

Pete Metzelaars
Keith McKellar

Paul Costa

OT
House Ballard
Will Wolford
John Fina

Dion Dawkins

OG
Joe DeLamielleure

Billy Shaw
Ruben Brown

Jim Ritcher

C
Kent Hull

Al Bemiller
Mitch Morse

Eric Wood

DE
Bruce Smith

Aaron Schobel
Mario Williams
Phil Hansen

DT
Tom Sestak
Kyle Williams
Fred Smerlas
Mike Kadish

LB
Darryl Talley
Cornelius Bennett
Mike Stratton
Shane Conlan

CB
Butch Byrd
Booker Edgerson
Nate Odomes
Nate Clements

S
George Saimes
Micah Hyde
Jordan Poyer
Tony Greene

I never saw George Saimes play. But he is on the wall. And I have heard that he was really really good. I remember Tony Greene. I liked Jeff Nixon too. He was a ball hawk. And what about Leonard Smith? He was an enforcer.

At corner, seriously Nate Odomes?? Didn't love his game. I liked Thomas Smith, Terrance McGhee and especially Antoine Winfield better. Nate Clements was real good. (And we should have never let him and Winfield leave) Byrd and Edgerson were before my time as well. But I heard they were real good also. What about Tre White?

Don't like the Shane Conlan pick. He was good, but all time good? Was he better then John Holacek? Milano is better than Conlan. Sam Cowart would have been better but for the injury he suffered on the fateful day in 2000 in the rain in Tampa. What about London Fletcher and Takeo Spikes?

Bennett and Talley were both special.

I don't have time for the rest right now. But it sure is great to think about all the old Bills players and teams.

You must have watched those 60's teams a bunch. Were they a really good outfit to watch and root for?

July 11

6 hours ago, corta765 said:

Haha don't worry I still watch and my buddy is a huge UM fan so I pull for them. I am a U Miami guy so its been a bit lol. I am curious with Saban gone how this all shakes out.

Good for your buddy. Did he go to UM, or is he from Michigan? I went there in the mid 80's when Bo was still coaching and Harbaugh was our QB.

I live in Fort Lauderdale part time, so I follow the Hurricanes some. They are very popular down there. They have been exciting the past few years. But just don't seem to be able to close out games against the good teams. I will be rooting for them this year again. Have to try and go see a game. It is hot at the Hard Rock stadium in the fall for those day games though. But like I said, I love college football.

July 10

On 7/3/2024 at 1:25 PM, corta765 said:

At this point they have the best coach and QB in the league. Their division is AFCE mid 2000s bad so even if their down who are you honestly taking at this point. Don't like it but really hard for me to see any way they miss the playoffs.

Exactly with the Chiefs. Like truthfully its like the Pats at this point where the best coach and QB in division are so far ahead, the schedule is light, and you need basically injuries to derail it.

I follow college football but not like I use to. It has gotten so money heavy and commercialized its lost its luster for me.

With the conference realignments this year. (Oklahoma and Texas to the SEC. USC, UCLA, Oregon and Washington to the Big 10, Arizona, Arizona State, Colorado and Oregon to the Big 12, and even SMU (who has a very exciting team) Stanford and Cal to the ACC.) There will be some very exciting new matchups to watch. I am a big Michigan guy. And we play Texas Washington, Oregon, USC and Ohio State this year. I am so pumped to watch those games.

Give it another try Corta. You can do it. And very good reference comparing the current AFC West to the AFC East of the mid 2000's. A bad memory for us to say the least.

July 8

7 hours ago, Beast said:

Both were Colts QB’s.

Bert Jones and Peyton Manning.

I loved watching Bert Jones as a kid. He threw the deep ball as well as anyone I ever saw on that dirt field in Baltimore. I also loved watching Ken “the snake” Stabler. He was just so clutch. And won a lot of games w the Raiders. A lot more characters back in the day. Game has become so technical and robotic. At least you get a lot of improv and raw joy and emotion from Joe Allen.

July 6

As Herm Edwards used to always say. Nothing good happens after midnight. That’s a big time tragedy. 3 young men killed in an MVA. I have 3 young adult children and i always hope they are living right and not taking too many stupid chances. Sometimes it’s not even peoples fault. Wrong place at the wrong time.

RIP to all 3.

July 3

On 7/2/2024 at 11:40 AM, corta765 said:

I started doing this last year and enjoyed it greatly where I looked at each conference and each team with their best case/worst case season wise and kind of kept doing it throughout. The rosters are relatively set and I will do this again in August, but here is where things feel to me at this point:

Baltimore

Best: The Ravens win a tight division race at 12-5 as their running game is close to unstoppable and the defense gels in the back end to be a force. 1 seed again and this time they beat KC at home to make the SB

Worst: The defense takes a step back as the losses they've had catch up and the offense regresses while Henry shows his age in a 9-8 non playoff year as the division attrition takes its toll

Buffalo

Best: Similar to the Ravens the Bills go 12-5 in a tight division race as the offense truly finds itself in the last 9 games and they get the 1 seed finally. They slay the dragon against KC and go to the SB beating CIN at home in the AFC title.

Worst: The losses on defense add up as the unit takes a real step back, the offense never finds itself requiring Josh to be superman too much, and they stumble to an 9-8 year out of the playoffs

Cincinnati

Best: Burrow is healthy on return and they throttle through the division and finish 13-4 with the 1 seed.

Worst: Burrow's injuries from prior years take their toll as he struggles to regain form and the Bengals slip to 7-10 and Higgins refuses to comeback to CIN.

Cleveland

Best: Watson finally finds his game after all of these years and the Browns win the division at 11-5. They win their first playoff game at home in a century

Worst: The Browns go 6-11 as the luck they had in one score games last year reverses, Watson continues to not show anything at QB, and the team is out of the playoff race by mid December.

Denver

Best: In a miracle type situation Bo Nix leads the Broncos to a wild card berth as the AFC log jams the final spots and DEN ends up 2nd best of the AFCW.

Worst: The lack of talent in DEN rears its ugly head as they sink to a 4-13 year and Nix shows nothing in any starts to give any hope he can be the answer long term.

Houston

Best: 14-3 dream season as the offense sparkles like everyone hopes and the defense continues to solidify as they get the 1 seed and make their first AFC title game.

Worst: Stroud fails to take another step forward, they lose the tight games they won in 2023, and they fall to 8-9 out of the playoffs as Jacksonville eliminates them week 17 from the playoff race.

Indianapolis

Best: The Colts are the surprise AFC South winner at 10-7 as Richardson healthy with Taylor healthy mix into a dynamic rushing attack with some deep passing threats.

Worst: Richardson's promise of 2023 never materializes in any meaningful way in 2024 and the Colts have a down 7-10 season where they never are truly part of the playoff race

Jacksonville

Best: The Jags are the team that went 8-3 through the first 11 in 2023 across a full season this time as Lawrence healthy leads the Jags to an 11-5 division crown.

Worst: Lawrence injuries' continue to add up as they trip to another season under .500 at 7-11 and questions on the long term future of coach/qb swirl.

Kansas City:

Best: The steamroll continues as they threepeat and face little resistance in the AFC

Worst: The age of the offensive line and Kelce finally shows mixed with suspensions to a few players for this offseason and the Chiefs go 11-6 ending up the fourth seed and lose at home in the first round.

LA Chargers

Best: Herbert with competent coaching hits the heights people hold him to and the Chargers make the wild card as a plucky 7th seed.

Worst: The Chargers go 6-11 as the lack of talent on the roster becomes evident and Herbert fails to return to being the player he was in 21/22.

Las Vegas

Best: The young players on the Raiders grow big time as the offense turns into a solid unit with one of the QBs providing enough capable QB to keep the team in the playoff hunt late December

Worst: They win too many games finishing with 4-6 wins and miss out on the first overall pick with no clear answer at QB either.

Miami

Best: Their offense boat races the AFC as Miami finally finishes the season as hot as they've started the last few years at 13-4 and goes to the AFC title.

Worst: Lack of depth, Tua's limitations, injuries & age to Hill finally catch up as the Phins fall back to 7-11 in a year that forces major questions up the long term future at QB and roster.

New England

Best: Drake Maye establishes himself as a quality starter as the Pats go 7-10 as the defense remains stout without BB and the offense comes together setting up a nice springboard for 2025.

Worst: Brissett fails to do anything meaningful as starter until Maye starts who has a Bryce Young level bad first year. The defense regresses as BB wizardly is no longer there to cover the holes and the Patriots go 4-13 again but also miss out on a top 3 pick.

New York Jets

Best: The stars align as Rodgers has a top 5 caliber QB season which mixed with the Jets defense sees them go 12-5 to win their first division crown in over two decades. The Jets proceed to make it to the AFC title game.

Worst: Rodgers gets beat up and fails to finish the season as age is real. The team with Tyrod cannot finish the season and they again miss the playoffs at 7-10 lamenting what could have been.

Pittsburgh

Best: Justin Fields steals the starting spot and leads a resurgent Steeler offense to a top 10 season as they steal the division at 11-5.

Worst: The dreaded under .500 season hits as the Steelers offense has no QB and the division ascends past them as they are out of the playoff hunt by mid December as the brutal schedule finishes the job.

Tennessee

Best: Will Levis emerges into a true starter and the youth movement continues as the Titans finish surprisingly close to a playoff spot.

Worst: Levis is not the QB and too shaky, the 2020 all star team they put together shows its age, and the Titans go 2-15 in a rough season with no real brightspots to build off.

You are pretty spot on Corta. I like that you are interested in the entire NFL. Do you like college football a lot also?

When I saw your worst case for the Chiefs at only 11-6, At first glance I thought that was giving them a little too much love. Then I looked up their schedule for 2024. And it does not look that difficult on paper playing their cross over games against the NFC South. And their division on paper still looks pretty weak. Denver and Las Vegas don't look like they have much at QB, at least compared to Mahomes. And the Chargers were crap last year. And yes Harbaugh is a good coach. But I am not sold on Herbert as much as some are. People were always blaming their coach. And yes he made some questionable decisions. But Herbert is soft. And tends to play small in big moments. And the Chargers secondary was god awful last year. But every year is a new season. So maybe KC gets too comfy and cocky. And Kelce really starts to fall off. That would be perfect.

As for the Bills. I like us in the 12-5 range if the defense can stay healthy.

July 2

On 7/1/2024 at 12:32 PM, Alphadawg7 said:

I think it's safe to say that if you polled the coaches, GM's, and players that Allen would be QB2 behind Mahomes by the end of that poll. And I think the vote would be pretty decisively Mahomes 1 and Allen 2. In the media, amongst fans, social media, etc he would probably still finish QB2 but likely by a narrower margin as he has a larger group of detractors there then the people who play against him.

But what do the numbers say? Well I think they may surprise some...

The QB's job is to score points, and right off the bat we know he has the most TD's in NFL history for a players first 6 seasons. Now the detractors will come back and say that is only because Mahomes sat his first year...well that isn't accurate, Mahomes played 1 game and Allen missed 6 games. So Allen only played 9 games more his rookie year and did so throwing to Benjamin as his lead WR without the luxury of sitting a year behind a quality vet. But...lets remove this argument all together and just focus on since 2020 when Allen arrived as a top tier QB.

Since 2020, Allen has the most TD's in the NFL with 174. In 2nd place is Mahomes with a distant 151. 3rd place is even further back at 125 (Herbert).

Allen has an NFL record 4 consecutive seasons of 40+ TD's and counting. He puts up 40 again and he extends that record to 5 consecutive seasons.

And Allen has done that with 3 OC's in 4 seasons, and an inferior set of weapons compared to many other top QB's

Some were saying 2023 was a down year for Allen, like he regressed and took a step back. But did he really?

He led the NFL in TD's

He led the NFL in TD's vs top 10 defenses with 20

He is first in points added per game vs top 10 defenses wtih 3.8

He again finished in top 5 voting for MVP and only person not named Lamar to get a vote and the only player to finish in the top 5 the past 2 seasons...and that was with Dorsey clown show for 75% of those games.

And this was with tension with Diggs and an OC switch week 11.

Then there is the argument that Allens turnovers are why he has not won a Super Bowl and why some lower is QB ranking below guys like Burrow who also has not won a SB, but had his defense help him reach one.

Allen has the lowest Interception % of all QB's with at least 350 career playoff passing attempts at just 1.1%. Mahomes is 2nd at 1.2%

He only has 2 lost fumbles in his playoff career too.

There are a lot more stats you can review, I picked some of the more interesting ones from a couple different articles I came across, I will add the links below.

So...who really is the best QB in the NFL if all things were equal? On one hand, Allen has statistically produced more with less advantages than Mahomes, but Mahomes has the rings ...but he also had the supporting cast make the plays when it matters, especially on defense because SB rings are a team accomplishment and too much credit/blame is assigned to the QB in regard to winning a SB or not.

Josh Allen stats that will irritate non-Bills fans

20 Unbelievable stats for his 28th birthday

Mahomes is a whiny B word. Allen is one hell of a cool dude. I want Allen as my guy every day over Mahomes and twice on Sunday! The thing that burns me up is that noone tries to light Mahomes up when he is running out of bounds. Its like the league has told teams, your guys will be suspended if you take Mahomes out when he is running for the sidelines. The Raider game on Christmas day is a perfect example. (And Mahomes was ***** that day btw) And then the playoff game against Miami. Noone wanted to even touch him on the Miami defense. I know it was brutally cold. But come on. Aren't defensive guys paid to hit offensive guys? Where is Kiko Alonso when you need him?