Alaska Darin

Up to him.

I was talking about ACCURACY. You're over there pretending that completion percentage is somehow the same thing. It isn't. Analytics isn't an exact science because every team and situation is different. Lies, damn lies, and statistics. Do QBs improve over time? Some do. Some go to better situations with coaches that are more able to use their talents. Is Orton one of those guys? I don't really know. I do know that he's never been in a situation with as many weapons as he has right now and he's never played with anyone like Watkins. I also know that when I've seen him play that he's always been a gamer who's never once looked overmatched. I can't say the same for Manuel and I don't see him ever being even an average NFL QB. If you think EJ Manuel is going to be a great QB in the NFL someday because he had better numbers at FSU than Kyle Orton had at Purdue with a decade of difference, then good for you. Purdue has produced more good/great NFL QBs than FSU has by a large margin. Is that relevant?

The TD catch by Watkins against the Vikings looked easy. It wasn't. Great catch, great field awareness, great foot placement. Dude is a rookie. And a witch.

Product of his environment and changes in the game. Cutler went to essentially the same Bears' team that Orton left and statistically had a worse season. Welcome to needing talent around you to be a successful QB. Orton finally has it and he's prospering (in spite of OLine play and CJ's inability to see a hole). I don't look at traditional football powers like Florida State who generally play NO ONE, are in a top-to- bottom weak conference and pretend that their success translates. Mostly because it doesn't. Name a great FSU QB who has been a good NFL QB. There's a reason they don't exist. Congrats to Manuel for being able to dump pass better than other players. That's relevant.

Pro-Football-Reference. Stupid trusting moron that I am, I used the Yards Per Game column. It's correct because Tebow got snaps in 9 games. My bad. Ah, the "John Fox Year". No offense but that's not a valuable tool for evaluation. Fox didn't become offensively smart until Manning showed up and he was essentially forced to stop being a Head Coach from the 1970s who won with defense and gut runs. Dude made Marty Schott look like Don Coryell. Eric Decker? Who knew who he was before Manning showed up? I'll bet his career numbers sink like a stone now that he's gone. He was absolutely a product of that system. Brandon Lloyd? Definition of a journeyman. Had the most productive 13 games of his career playing with Orton. By a wide margin.

I'll be the most shocked person in the entire world if EJ Manuel has a 10+ year run in the NFL and starts more games than Kyle Orton. And I wouldn't compare the NFL or college games of 10 years ago with today. The rules and passing game are light years different.

I wouldn't say that, though I can see where people come up with it. Orton has always been a victim of circumstance. For example, Jay Cutler had similar numbers in his first year in Chicago to Orton's final year there with similar skill position and OLine talent. Cutler's negative plays (picks, sacks) were much worse. Chicago realized that it wasn't just QB play that was holding them back, it was a lack of talent at WR and OLine. The Denver situation was a little weird and destined to go the way it did because teams don't spend 1st round picks on QBs and then not play them. The season he got benched he had more than twice as many TDs as interceptions and averaged 281 yards passing per game (Tebow averaged 72 YPG. SEVENTY TWO). Orton reminds me a little of Phil Simms. Unfortunately for him, he didn't have the Tuna with him at any point. Is it a coincidence that Marrone is essentially from that tree?

That might have been the worst coached defense in the history of the league.

I think it can be coached but there hasn't been marked improvement since his first days as a college starter so why should we expect it?

I agree. He is what he is. I'll be stunned if he's ever anything more than a tantalizing backup.

I don't put much stock in division rivalry games. Of the last 7 games they've played against one another, 5 have been decided by a FG.

We also need to be able to get critical stops on defense, which we certainly didn't do in the Patriots' game.

Good point.

Sure. With the BILLS on the losing end of a 56-31 score.

I think Leodis of today is much better at finding the football than he used to be - he started showing significant improvement last season but that was as much Pettine allowing him to face receivers in a zone and break on the ball. I'm sure I'm not the only person watching the game who saw the ball going towards McKelvin/Graham who thought it had at least a 50/50 shot of harmlessly falling untouched to the turf. I wouldn't be surprised to find out that someone yelled "ball" to get both of them to actually look for it.

Graham is like Leodis McKelvin of WRs. Virtually no ball awareness whatsoever.

Completely and totally agree. Formations were a much larger problem than actual play selection. Spread those !@#$ers out!

I don't know if the offense is bad. I do know that the execution is bad. Most of the time when I'm watching the All-22 I can see exactly who is making the mistake that's blowing up an individual play. That's generally the difference in the NFL. Teams like NE and Denver minimize those things while teams like the JETS and BILLS don't. More games in the NFL are lost than won.

Amen

I think people aren't recognizing the fact that Orton is basically getting ready to start the regular season. I'm basing this on the fact he had no OTAs, no training camp, no preseason games, and very few first team reps before he was handed the keys. He's going to get better if our interior OLine doesn't get him killed. I was thrilled when they signed Orton because he's a gamer and he's never been on a team that has the skilled talent that the BILLS currently have. I'm not at all surprised his stats are good and he looks like an above average guy because that's what I've always seen from him. He always been a victim of his circumstances.

Not arguing that at all.

Which is pretty much every organization in the NFL. QB selection has always been more about luck than anything.

What answer would you give to satiate everyone?

I'd have traded for Barron in a heartbeat. To me it's the equivalent of trading for Jerry Hughes. I'd much rather have one Top 10 draft choice level talent than an unknown 4th and 6th.

That's terrible and no person should ever have to bury a young child. I can't imagine trying to deal with that.