BillsVet

To summarize this thread: 1. Jesse James is a pending UFA. 2. Some believe Buffalo should sign him because, well, there's nothing other than a former UDFA on the roster. And he'd be new, so clearly better! 3. TE is an overrated position. Other teams that are good offensively feature them as a complementary option. 4. TE's covered by CB's are neutralized. Stats back it up! Ergo... 5. You don't need a TE. WR's are more important and TE's can't do it all themselves! So, just get good stars, role players and voila! everything will be good. Oh, and good coaching! Gotta love the off-season!

This is the sort of logic which makes TBD all the more interesting during the off-season. ? Well done sir!

To quote a well-known man, "there's lies, damn lies, and statistics." That sums it up.

NE, PHI, and KC are three of the league's best offense. Each of them have an elite pass catching TE. The NFL is all about creating personnel mismatches and TE is not "overvalued." In fact, I'd say they're undervalued given how a good one forces a defense to cover them. I'm not sure how you can predict future careers of 21-22 year old athletes.

Someone started a thread about Beane's 2019 moves being to set them up to compete in 2020. Is that not what the thread says? Is that not what the debate is centered around? This is all about some fans recognizing that despite all that 2019 cap room and their picks, it's going to be awfully tough to build a good enough offense that can score. And, the team ain't gonna come out and say what the plan is - they never have nor do I expect it. This team, no matter what they do in UFA, isn't ready to compete for a title when so many other teams have done just that by year 3. They've slow-walked their way to rebuild and now that's sinking in for some.

I'm not going to change your mind no matter how much evidence is provided and that's cool. Still, you're quibbling about the nature of those other rebuilds because the Bills' so far isn't nearly as fast as those were. I The Pegula's typically give their people all the resources they ask for, but aren't going to stand by if things don't go well. Any owner worth their salt is going to question why their team isn't winning when other teams can do it after starting over. The plan has been flawed from the start and I sense a lot of fans are coming to terms with this, hence the 2020 narrative being floated.

1. Yes, it is a good point. 2. Which ones? LAC? They still went from 5-11, changed their HC, and managed to be in the AFC title game in 2 years. Rivers hadn't done anything since Schottenheimer, but for the first time in a decade now he is. Every one of those teams were so bad they needed a new HC and 4 had new GMs. 3. That's too late. Rebuilding, as evidenced by these 7 examples, doesn't need to take 4 years. And it's not like McDermott entered OBD without any talent. He had plenty, some of which they allowed to hit UFA (Gilmore, Woods, Z. Brown) some traded away (Watkins, Darby, Glenn) some that retired (Incognito, Wood, K. Williams) and some still there (McCoy, Hughes, Alexander) As has been noted by other solid posters, McBeane shot themselves in the foot trying to do a complete renovation when something less intrusive would have worked. But let's look at it from another standpoint. Does anyone honestly think McCoach or Beane told previous UFAs signed or will tell prospective ones this off-season that their plan means not competing for a title until 2020? How do you think that'd go over? Think an in-demand UFA would want to hear that? This 2020 thing is fans being afraid to raise the bar, you know, like most teams' fans do.

Didn't Pat Mahomes just win the NFL MVP in his 2nd year and 1st as a starter? Or, Mitch Trubisky QBing a Chicago team to 12-4 in his second season? How about Deshaun Watson in his second season with Houston? Perhaps Jared Goff in year 3 getting to the SB? Carson Wentz? Russell Wilson 5 years ago? The question isn't when the Bills will make a run...it's why they likely aren't in position to do so in year 3 of a rebuild when so many other franchises are or have been. Every year players get older, contracts are closer to finishing, your players hit UFA, players get injured, etc.. You can always find a reason for why they're not doing well. Studying other successful franchises illustrates that expectations shouldn't be as low as some are setting them.

Here are 7 rebuilding franchises in the past decade: KC: 2-14 in 2012, Reid went 31-17 first 3 seasons with 2 playoff appearances HOU: 2-14 in 2013, O'Brien 27-21 first 3 seasons with 2 playoff appearances LAC: 5-11 in 2016, Lynn goes 21-11 first 2 seasons with 1 playoff appearance (Reached conference championship in 2nd season) PHI: 7-9 in 2015, Pederson goes 29-19 first 3 seasons with 2 playoff appearances (1 SB win) MIN: 5-10-1 in 2013, Zimmer goes 26-22 first 3 seasons with 1 playoff appearance LAR: 4-12 in 2016, McVay goes 24-8 first 2 seasons with 2 playoff appearances (Reached SB in 2nd season) SEA: 5-11 in 2009, Carroll goes 25-23 first 3 seasons with 2 playoff appearances (on SB in 4th season) Every one of those franchises showed something by the end of year 3. Because in this league, if you've not won by that point, typically it's time to start over. You don't need 4 off-seasons to rebuild a team, nor should anyone delay expectations that far.

You are the AOC of this board now and I really don't know what this is...other than word salad.

With these guys, it might take 4 seasons to get it right. In the wake of players like Vlad Ducasse, Andre Holmes, Mike Tolbert, Anquan Boldin, Kelvin Benjamin, Marshall Newhouse, Corey Coleman, Chris Ivory, and Zay Jones what makes you believe they're going to pick good offensive starters this year and beyond? I'm optimistic for Allen, but they've done little to put together a competent offense in the first two off-seasons.

Says the guy who once had as their avatar a naked picture of OJ Simpson. Stay classy!

I'm interested to hear what you consider "good job" is? It'd be one thing to complain about a team that wins 10+ games consistently. Doing so for a team stuck in mediocrity for so long isn't out of the ordinary. What is strange is how people never fail to defend a mediocre product and invent new ways to do so. And then, when they are challenged to do so, they revert to just saying pablum like "enjoy the ride" or "i'm happy, you're not." I've seen it for years now.

Who's saying they're deceptive? I'm not. They've been up front that this is going to take time. I'm questioning why, at this point, it's likely going to be a 4 off-season rebuilding process when multiple teams are getting into the playoffs in much less time this decade. I also find it hilarious that fans who are just enjoying the ride find themselves on message boards during the off-season. That's doesn't indicate someone's a "casual" fan. It likely means you're interested in the team and what they're doing. One would think that would also include a debate about how they're going to win as quickly as possible.

It took 2 off-seasons for McCoach to build his defense, which still doesn't get great pressure from the front 4 as his scheme needs. And that's the easier side of the ball to build. So it's beyond me how anyone thinks they'll build a competent offense in one off-season. Sure, there's Allen and hopefully a motivated Dawkins, but no one else on that side of the ball is proven. People love to reference the Bears' rebuild, but their OL was largely built heading into year 2 of Trubisky. They added pass catchers and had some youth at RB. Buffalo has perhaps 2 decent OL starters and little at the skill positions.

Eball beat you to that refrain already. When all else fails and criticism is warranted, just say the person isn't happy. That'll silence the criticism!

It's setting in for a lot of people that, even with all that cap room and their usual complement of higher picks, they're not going to suddenly go from 6 to 11 wins this season. And, that building an offense in one off-season isn't realistic. I'm interested to see what ownership thinks if this team is .500 next year and misses the playoffs. Homers can sit here and bang the patience drum as they have for a decade plus, but ownership isn't so kind. I doubt the Pegula's listened gleefully as McBeane told them after 2017 that it was a 4 year rebuild.

Pushing out expectations is a hallmark of this board. It's a defensive mechanism for those fans who aren't sure their team is good, but still want to wave the pom-poms. Right now they have half a team built after 2 off-seasons spent rebuilding. They've largely rid themselves of the previous regimes' players and it's to the point that expectations are ramping up...which means now we have this discussion of "2020." Every fan should expect that this team is in the playoffs in 2019, perhaps as a division winner.

Yes, several good moves will eventually make a good roster. I would agree the TT trade was a solid move and more than I expected Beane would get for someone they couldn't really afford either. The jury is out though on this regime. They are better than previous OBD incarnations, but the NFL is more competitive than ever and way more than during the DJ years. As for Walsh and the 49ers, that was well before UFA. And Walsh was a supreme talent evaluator well ahead of his peers. I hesitate making comparisons to before the year 2000 when it comes to rebuilding with the game being so different.

Do you think Brandon Beane had anything to do with the trade during the 2017 draft when Buffalo moved in front of Carolina to take Dion Dawkins, who was high on the Panthers' board? Coincidence? After all, Beane wasn't "officially" in Buffalo at that point. Beane and McCoach are linked together to make decisions on personnel. There is no one player acquired or sent packing without both agreeing and that's how they've want it. McBeane's first combined foray into UFA hasn't proven to be spectacular. The 2018 draft is TBD.

You didn't? I'm sorry.

When were Darby and Watkins traded? Which off-season was that? But, for arguments' sake, let's look at where the Bills went from year 1 of Beane to year 2. They deliberately took a step back to clean up their cap and went from 9 wins to 6. You realize that right now their offense is among the league's worst? Their top 2 RBs hit 31 in a few months. They have no more than 3 proven OL on the roster. Their TEs consist of a journeyman and former UDFA with 22 career catches. The WRs? A UDFA with 6 good NFL games and a WR who struggles to separate and make catches. I'd "fact-check" your posts first.

Not horrible, but certainly nothing to write home about either. He's the same guy who handed Vontae Davis a decent size deal to ostensibly start. Trent Murphy looks questionable. Star at 50M...meh. The real good signings happened before he was GM: Hyde and Poyer were when McCoach was on his own. When they start winning division titles and/or playoff games, then they've proven their plan has worked. Until that point, "the process" is talk. At the minimum, they aggressively sought to draft a long term option at QB who has shown some good signs. That's more than previous regimes from 2006-2017 really mustered. I've come to believe many fans measure success now not on wins, but having national sports media respect and on moves made in the off-season. Excellence has eluded this franchise for so long that expectations have been permanently lowered. And, in the absence of on-field success, many fans revert to hoping to just being liked. As in, sports writer X said we're good at this or, this NFL guy likes our pick or, this outlet says our UFA signing is great. It's basically redefining success to fit an unsuccessful franchise.

Except Beane's not graded on how well he does on individual trades, even though everyone wants to declare victory immediately on moves these days. Beane is graded on building a roster, and through 2 off-seasons he and McCoach have a far from finished product ready to compete and win championships. You can take your individual trade victories, but over the long haul it doesn't matter.

Long's contract isn't huge, but it's not depth either. I would expect he could play RG in that scheme. I'd guess then that you lose a lot of money. If this team is serious about having a solid offense, they'd consider moving Dawkins to LG and drafting a LT. I've never subscribed to the theory that a LT's drop in play is as directly related to a LG next to him as some make it out to be. And, the Juan Castillo effect of going easy on the OL is over.