BillsVet

Can you go one post without citing stats to defend your opinion? It's more nuanced than numbers.

As has been said many times here, stats don't tell the whole story. Someone posted the ratio of how many runs he's had that resulted in first downs. And so, I ask the question: Is it better to get 5 yards on 1st and 10 or 3 yards on 3rd and 3? That's the operative question which cannot be answered with stats, like you so often cite. CJ isn't the value some made him out to be, but rather is the flash-point for fans to defend all things Bills. It's actually OK to criticize the team and players from time to time. After all, the latest rebuild appears to be heading to year 4 of 10+ losses. Shouldn't it be acceptable by now for even the hardiest of homers to do this?

Two separate coaching staffs have been blamed for not knowing how to use Spiller. It would seem that it's not the coaches, but rather the player after nearly 4 complete seasons in the NFL. I truly don't believe Spiller understands the pro game as much as he should in his fourth season. When you spend the 9th overall pick on a RB, it had been be a dynamic player. Spiller is not dynamic, but of course there's always another reason why he's not succeeding.

It counts, but not as much as some would like it to be in their continued attempt to defend all things Bills. I just subscribe to the notion it's acceptable to criticize a franchise that is either rebuilding for the second time in 4 seasons or still on rebuild 1 extension 2. Either way, I'll be objective until they string more than 1 win in a row together, which they haven't done at all this season. What does Alex Smith, Ryan Tannehill, Tom Brady, and Jeff Tuel have to do with any of this? QB's aren't judged on stats, but some of them can serve as metrics to indicate where they're trending. Yet, W's and L's are assigned more to the QB than any other individual or unit on the field. Besides, Wilson's improvement within the season was tremendous, while Manuel's is no more than pedestrian if at all. A conflation of the argument. Road teams typically are at a disadvantage, which is an even greater conflation than your example. LOL.

1) Yes, 2 passing and 1 rushing TD's. Against the league's 27th best defense. 2) A loss is a loss is a loss. Russell Wilson beat NE in his first try for the record, which doesn't factor into this conversation, but it's a technique you've used frequently. 3) Doesn't matter. That was 3 months ago and it's his highest passing yardage game of the year. Makes the argument that the progress isn't there, especially when 5 of his 9 (completed) games featured 200 yards or less passing. If this were 1955, I'd be OK with that, but we're in a pass-happy era, as you undoubtedly know.

I remember reading on this very board about the concept of "progress" back in 2007. It was the feel-good mindset of the moment, which excused DJ's exasperating offenses and bend but don't break defenses. Yet, it didn't add up to anything because they didn't have a real QB, the coaching wasn't good, and the team didn't have a real GM. 6 years and zero playoff appearances later, the QB position remains in flux, the coaching isn't as solid as we'd hoped, and the GM just emerged from the shadow of Buddy Nix. This is sophistry. Referencing Drew Brees' road record after the bills won against one of the league's worst teams. Really?

It's amazing that a 17-24 193 yard 2 TD 2 turnover performance against the league's 27th overall and 26th ranked pass defense qualifies as progress. No way does that get the job done against the New England's, Denver's, or Seattle's. Because if you're measuring yourself against the dregs of the league, it's a pretty hollow comparison. Raise the standard beyond mediocrity.

Perhaps the coaches know their personnel can't do everything they'd like to and had to scale it back. Hence, the bubble screens and short passes for EJM.

So true. Nothing else matters but wins and any other mindset is a losers frame of mind. Anyone having a dubious opinion of the Bills, fan or not, is fully justified given the track record. No need to apologize, the homers won't care anyway.

This is, as per usual this time of year, what Bills fans are reduced to.

I can hear Marrone after the game today: "Obviously, at the end of the day, we just didn't play well. And I'm going to kick my dog when I get home. This one hurts."

EJ, like Fitz before him, tends to come up small at crunch time far too often.

The players in NE respect the HC, despite him appearing cold-hearted and unemotional. That's the difference, which should be patently obvious by now. I can't stand BB, but he's proven whereas Marrone isn't, Whaley, isn't, and EJM certainly isn't. Winning is the only way to do that, and the talk this organization has put out there is being tuned out. Point is, there is no substitute for victory.

It's amazing how frequently coaches come into Buffalo and attempt to mold the roster into what they want, wasting 1-2 years in the process. Unfortunately, they don't get it right, which means year 3 continues to be as bad or slightly better than the preceding 1-2 years. Jauron did it, Gailey did it, and now Marrone is doing it. One of Marv's greatest abilities was to manage personalities. He had Jim, Bruce, Thurman, Andre and a host of guys who were stars to keep in check. While ML wasn't the best HC, he kept those guys on the right path (with exceptions). Now, we have the disciplinarian style seemingly invading the locker room and it's only natural the players will become resentful. But that's the danger of hiring college coaches who work only with 18-23 year olds. Talent wins in the NFL. And so, like others have said, it's up to the HC to manage personalities and get the most out of them. There's a limit to that, but choir boys aren't going to get you into the playoffs.

Bruce, Thurman, and Andre were cut in early 2000, well before TD showed up as GM. Tom Donahoe's era, which ended almost 8 years ago, has nothing to do with the current ineptitude exhibited at OBD. Blaming him for the fortunes of the past few years is an exercise in futility, especially when the current pair of GM's, Nix and Whaley, have not equaled Donahoe's poor record from 01-05.

Kraft delegates significant authority to Belicheck and the personnel people, who have proven they can be entrusted to put a winner on the field. OTOH, Jones, as GM, forced out Jimmy Johnson and, when Johnson's teams got old, could never duplicate the success of 92-93. In fact, since 1997 the Cowboys are 135-134. Ownership is the most critical element of a successful team, which is what I think you're getting at. It seems like the Bills have been run as a hobby that happens to make RW and family millions. While RW didn't make plays on the field, he did hire the GM's who picked the coaches and players, who combined have made the Bills a mediocre franchise for going on a decade and a half. Ownership is responsible.

Steve Smith's (all 5'9 185 lb of him) last 3 seasons in the NFL with a young QB: 2011: 79 receptions 1,394 yards 7 TD 2012: 73 receptions 1,174 yards 4 TD 2013: 60 receptions 681 yards 4 TD And who, precisely, has lined up to support Smith, who by the way was 32, 33, and 34 years old in those seasons?

When you make decisions out of necessity, it usually doesn't bode well. The last 2 QB's taken by Buffalo in round 1 fit into that category, with one busting and the other demonstrating signs he's not adapting to the NFL. The point made in another thread with regard to Seattle's pursuit of their QB was the right method applies here. . And for some reason, Modrak was retained through the Levy, Brandon, and part of the Nix GM years. It defies logic that a personnel guy could survive, but then again OBD defies logic on many subjects.

John, this isn't team building circa 1990. In other words drafting like Buddy Nix isn't going to help you win in 2013-14. You may recall Nix's strategy was to build all the other elements of a team and then get the QB. Never mind that he didn't get the QB thing right, but he didn't get the OL done, didn't get the skill positions done, and the defense never worked either. And given that Manuel isn't making much compared to previous first round QB selections, the cost versus the benefit of taking another one early isn't nearly as great. A QB has to make plays (i.e. throws) and Manuel isn't doing it frequently enough. Watch the All-22 film. The fastest way to becoming a playoff-caliber team is to nail the QB thing. That position is the greatest force-multiplier because it makes everyone better.

I noticed EJM often throws to stationary targets and not those moving. Someone mentioned that watching Brees, like most top QB's, who'll throw the ball before the receiver makes his break. A low YPA and completion percentage, IMO, are indicative of someone who's struggling in an offense he said he understood during the pre-season.

You're kidding right?

All due respect JfH, there's a lot of wait and see approach. The wait part for some here is until there is conclusive evidence a player isn't good enough, then and only then can we declare he's not good. Some fans can have an informed opinion that is objective without a player having 2-3 seasons under their belt. What I'm reading here is some are expressing deep concern considering what they observe on the field and EJM's miniscule YPA (lower than Trentative and Fitz) along with a poor completion percentage. I get that some fans want to wait until the bitter end before declaring a player bad, but it's OK to do a running evaluation. And right now, EJM hasn't shown much improvement.

Which other critical position is there which affects a game's outcome as much as your QB? If you don't have one, you have nothing.

The player either can retain the mechanics he's been taught or not. Right now, E.J. has poor mechanics, and that's not easily correctable when the game is being played. And as for reading a defense, a coach can teach all they want. If the guy panics at the first sight of a rush and isolates on one receiver, then he's not going to succeed. You're talking about potential after the guy's played almost 4 complete seasons? When does he reach that? And should we wait around for a QB to develop 2-3 years before declaring he can't get it done? After all, isn't that what Nix did with Fitzpatrick and it put the Bills in a position to draft a QB in a year when it doesn't appear many good ones were available?

DJ didn't last long after Schobel made those comments. I'm not saying Marrone needs to go, but it's clear the coaching staff can't light a fire under a team like TB did after they started 0-8. Their 4-1 record since then indicates Schiano and crew been effective whereas Marrone already looks like he's out of answers given the 1-5 record in their last 6. NFL teams aren't jettisoning players like a D-1 team might. A coach is going to go before they get rid of 4-5 decent sized contracts. Not a relevant comparison here.