BillsVet

Two questions remain: 1. Will the Bills be in QB purgatory and out of position to take a top prospect? 2. Will Doug Whaley make it to the 2016 Draft with this franchise?

Conflating the argument to say they're the same is absurd and "Paid patriotism" seems about right. If the Army, Marines, Navy, or Air Force run a recruiting ad on television I think everyone understands they're paying for that. But a sports team hosting a contingent of uniformed or former military doesn't give the appearance of an attempt to recruit at all.

Do you think a GM in most likely the final year of his contract tells his new boss the owner (who would offer an extension if warranted) that he shouldn't hire the HC? Ralph hired HC's so why wouldn TPegs/KPegs? I swear Rod Serling had this thread and others in mind when he created the Twilight Zone television show. The Bills are 18-21 under Whaley, roster talent or not. And he's not a Pegula hire either.

Whaley was re-signed in Feruary 2013 when he was Assistant GM. It can be deduced that this contract extension was not merely to serve as Assistant GM. And if that isn't the case, wouldn't it make sense a professional sports team would have a plan on replacing their then 73 year old GM? And if that's the case, wouldn't it make sense the personnel decisions were predominantly made by the incoming as opposed to outgoing GM? And would a professional sports team permit the outgoing guy to have so much influence on the incoming guy's tenure? At worst, it was a joint decision, albeit one made when the incoming guy scouted Manuel heavily and admitted as much. Or you can revert to homerism which is bereft of all logic and critical thinking skills. No, Ozzie Newsome selected Flacco in 2008 and before then acquired a QB who held the position from 06-07 when it was clear Boller was not capable after 2005. Ozzie Newsome then, as GM, won a SB with that 1st round QB a few season later. Keep conflating the argument though.

Manuel is Whaley's signature move and will be for the rest of his career, unless he hits on a QB in Buffalo or does so with another organization. The trade for Watkins was big, but QB picks define a legacy.

When Cassel hands the worst defense in the league 21 points on a neutral field then maybe Doug Failey will be vindicated. http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/writer/jason-la-canfora/23116871/whaley-brings-steelers-ways-to-buffalo-banks-on-top-pick-manuel I found this article from summer 2013 very interesting. Specifically: Whaley: "Look at teams like Pittsburgh, Green Bay, the Giants," Whaley said. "They mostly are homegrown. That's the philosophy I was brought up in, and I subscribe to it wholeheartedly. Obviously we made a big push with Mario, and that's one of those things where we had a chance and decided to go for it. But most likely from now on it's going to be more building through the draft, re-signing our own guys, and if we do free agency, it's going to be some guys that have real value." Or this from Jason LaCanfora: "While Whaley's ascent to the GM title was long in the works, going back to before Marrone was hired in January, it became official in May." How can anyone deduce that Manuel was not a Whaley pick and the recent free agent splurge was initiated by Rex is beyond me. Add it up and this is a franchise with an uncertain football organization chart and some people who will be held accountable.

He's had 3 off-seasons, had a significant budget to work with, traded up for a highly-touted WR, and had 3 drafts total. Not to mention inherited some talent. He could make the case he didn't get to hire a HC. Yet, the new ownership hasn't extended him and I find this very telling. What else would they be doing if not evaluating him? And if they're doing that, none of the things that you mention really matter because they didn't hire him. And yes, Whaley looks good compared to two non personnel types (Brandon and Marv) and one guy who was over his head (Nix) who were Bills GM's in the past 10 seasons. Doesn't mean he's that good either. There's nothing then that I can offer any further. They are judged on wins and losses. We'll have to agree to disagree.

There is such a thing as good change. And then there is bad change, which the Bills have made a habit of doing for several years. At GM the names Levy, Brandon, Nix, and Whaley bear that out. Espeically when combined with the HC decisions and some of their coordinator selections.

Yes, they are better since he assumed the GM role. But is it enough? Look, I'm not trying to be contentious with you. They won 6 games in 2013, 9 (or 8 to some) last year and that's progress. I just don't think they're moving fast enough, considering player shelf life and contracts. 3 years might seem short, but that's usually all a GM or HC gets these days to get into the playoffs.

Sweat doesn't count, but results do. And despite an increase in talent, they're still only 18-21 in Whaley's 3+ seasons as GM. That sort of track record in a major market gets you fired. Speaking of the increase in talent, this narrative always appears whenever Whaley is questioned. It's really just sophistry. The starting roster has been improved significantly through free agency with guys like Mario, Clay, Graham, and Incognito. And they signed their eventual starting QB in UFA as well, not to mention acquired a starting RB via trade of another Whaley draft pick, prompting a large contract extension. The more a team dips into the free agent market the less adept they've been drafting. And only about half of the current starters was acquired via the draft while Whaley was assistant GM or GM.

Unbelievable this needs to be explained. It's not fan heresy to criticize the team. Never has been. Never will be. Meanwhile, the latest rebuild undertaken in 2010 is into its 6th season. This after 2 previous rebuilds this millennium. During these 3 rebuilds the team has won fewer than 40% of their games. Right now I'd be satisfied with a 10 win season and a first round exit in the playoffs. I guess that's expecting too much for the franchise.

It's not like the level of GM's Buffalo's had since Butler has been stellar. But we've come full circle. Donahoe was more about proving himself after Pittsburgh bounced him. Marv and Brandon had no business in the job. Nix was a scout masquerading as a GM and never developed a plan. Either way, Whaley is the nominal architect of the team, but he wasn't hired by the Pegulas. I've heard nothing that the Pegulas are trying to extend him either. But I'd wager that if Whaley was DFA'd, the Pegulas would have someone help them find a suitable replacement. EDIT: OP...not sure signs are in order. But agree the head football guy should be held accountable regardless of injuries, and at this point, the HC's decisions. Forcing a QB like EJ the staff didn't want is not a solid decision.

Not really interested in hypotheticals at this point. My point earlier was that Wilson has been, despite his style of play, durable. Tyrod has not been that. At least not yet. The other concept lost on this board is that as teams get tape on Buffalo, they typically aren't able to match early season results. And that goes for both individual players and sides of the ball. I certainly hope Taylor returns and continues to play well, but it'll be the mark of how much he improves and how the staff game-plans around their weaknesses. If we're talking statistics, Taylor's play fell off since the Week 1 win. His yards per attempt fell from 10.3 in week 1 to 6.4 and to me that is one of the more defining metric of how well a QB is playing.

I figured this rationale was forthcoming. Aaron Rodgers watched 3 seasons from the sidelines in Green bay. In his "rookie season" of 2008 he threw for 4k+ yards with 28 TD passes versus 13 INT. That said, I see some good things from Tyrod that he can build on. I just am not ready, given what the team has invested all over the field, to give him an out in the event things continue sliding downhill this season.

You're seriously comparing Russell Wilson to Tyrod Taylor? That's an extremely poor conflation, but I'll play along. Wilson (who hasn't missed a game since his rookie year) has 24 games of less than 200 yards passing out of 63 starts. 15 of those occurred during his rookie or 2nd year, although Seattle is 17-7 in those games. This includes playoffs. I don't consider Wilson an elite QB on par with Rodgers or Brady. But he's certainly very good.

I'm not sure he's demonstrated he can make every throw...consistently. He was 10-17 in the Tennessee game for 109 yards, which is a stat line QB's who can "make all the throws" rarely if ever have, especially against a low ranked defense. What is telling about a QB, and there are glimpses with Taylor, is that he's improving reading defenses and therefore being able to throw receivers open. I like that. That said, I feel more comfortable with him now than I did with EJ after the latter self-destructed in London. If EJ plays that way against arguably the worst team in the NFL, Buffalo has no shot against better teams.

Outside of Cam Newton (who is 6'6 and 260#) a team needs a pocket passing QB. Tyrod may become that but it's worrisome that he's hurt and it happened on a long scramble. It's difficult to succeed in this league playing your backup 4 games every season. The Bills may be 3-4 and "all this woe" but they're certainly trending down after a debilitating loss in London. The defense is a mess, the starting QB is injured as is their 2014 top pick WR, and internal strife between the GM and HC. 3-4 is extremely underwhelming and doesn't tell the story of where they are at their bye week.

Ironic that Brandon was pretty miffed about Marrone's departure. After all, Mr. Smithers hired him and then tried to act as mediator between his hand-picked HC and the GM he promoted after Nix retired. Russ Brandon owned that situation more than people realize. To think a business/marketing guy was making GMs and hiring HCs. No wonder everything was broken at the end of 2014 when TPegs and KPegs became team owners. Marrone was thin skinned and not suited to being a NFL HC with his demeanor. But he knew they needed a QB and Whaley insisted on Manuel. Jason Cole later reported that people at OBD told Marrone at the end of 2013 that Manuel was never going to get it. https://twitter.com/jasoncolebr/status/503281788920553472

This debate is higher than players on the field. It's about why GM's from 2006-2013 insisted on 1 guy only and didn't push for competition at the game's most crucial spot. What happens on the field is symptomatic of what happens off it during the off-season. You tell me why the Bills didn't pursue options and I'll answer your question about who should have been selected.

The Bills have been, IMO, afraid of QB controversies and they've avoided that for several years. In '09 Brandon went out of his way to say signing Fitzpatrick in free agency was not a challenge to Edwards. And after Edwards was DFA'd after week 3 in the 2010 season, no one was acquired to challenge Fitz for the remainder of his tenure in Buffalo. Manuel was picked in 2013 after Kolb was inexplicably signed to be a speed bump to EJ's ascendance as starter. Only after what I suspect was Marrone's insistence on signing Orton did Whaley agree to terms with the latter. This year, the Bills signed people and held an open competition, which is the result of having a real coaching staff (albeit one that's struggled). Undervaluing, single-mindedness and bad evaluation of QB's has been a common denominator in the decade and a half of fail.

Doug Whaley as GM: 18-21. That's all that matters. And it's not outstanding. Who else bears more responsibility for this mess?

Buffalo still is a middle of the road team. In 2+ seasons they've managed to win about 46% of their games which translates to a 7 win season. Owners don't employ GM's who fail to win and as architect of the roster, Doug Whaley hasn't won games. Fitz looked decent yesterday. Better than EJ will ever be. There are also some young guys who show more upside out there, including the guys you specified.

Do you think that Buddy one day just ambled up to Russ Smithers-Brandon and said he was going to retire? I don't, and suspect that Whaley took on more of a personnel management (i.e. decision making) role in early 2013 leading to his promotion to GM. And that includes (as Dave McB noted) scouting and picking a QB he could feature. Why would the Bills permit Nix to take a QB his successor would have to live and die on? If you do, then we're done here. For what it's worth the Bills probably would have been better off with Fitz, and that guy defines what it means to be a journeyman.

Right. Although, it seems like the trend in Buffalo with Whaley has been for the HC to push for QB options beside EJ. Last year it was the Orton signing at the end of camp and this year Tyrod's acquisition in free agency along with the Cassel trade. It's why I suspect Whaley didn't want competition at QB and dragged his feet with Marrone wanting Orton (although KO probably didn't want to go to a camp) and this year Rex winning out by getting them to sign 2 EJ competitors.

Yes, but as Rico noted, that doesn't seem like a Whaley decision. Such a predictable response. Whenever Buffalo shows their QB situation is poor, we always see this post. Well, as I've noted, OBD has been horrible identifying QB's and when they do, the player has been a bust. There are muliple QB's taken from 2011-2014 in the 2nd and 3rd who are better than Manuel. And they're improving where EJ isn't. Take your pick.