Koufax

Maniacs? I hope you mean our maniacal interest in improving this team and not that our O-Line somehow magically became anything other than our #1 priority. I'd like a DT and LB help, so I'm not suggesting that we pick seven O-Linemen, but we need to upgrade this position a lot, and also could consider a pass catching TE (although not necessary) RB/FB help, and a bigger possession receiver. Having Youboty an McCargo as aquisitions effectively, and getting Crowell back, changes the D needs from how they seemed on the field the last month of the season. Not that the D is perfect or should be ignored, but I think this off season will be 50% or more offense.

Yeah, I think the ripple effect is VERY important to consider. We saw how much better it worked when Nate lined up on the #1 receiver in the second half (we would have won the Detroit game if they thought of that sooner). If we bring Nate back and Ashton develops, we move McGee to nickel and he has fresher legs for kickoff returns. I don't think we will have cheaper alternatives to Nate that don't cost us elsewhere. Spending a top pick means one more position that we have to address in free agency rather than the draft. Using dollars on another player still puts us in the crazy market and loses any hometown discount we might have. I think the key here is to make Nate a big agressive offer early. I think if we sign him it should be before he gets flown to Washington on Snyder's jet, etc. This market is going to move fast, and what seemed like overpaying Nate early might seem like a bargain a few months later. The other half of that is not letting the market force us to overspend IF we can get better value in other ways (upgrading another positions more and accepting a downgrade at corner), but I think Nate is good enough, and the free agent spending is going to be crazy enough that we would overpay less to keep Nate (and draft a top guard) than to sign Steinbach, lose Nate, and have to draft a top corner. For quick reference, Champ Bailey signed a 7/$63m, and McAlister was 6/$48m, Winfield was 6/$35m a couple years back. I think that we are looking at a number closer to Champ, but in this market and changing caps might be more of a bargain than it seems.

I'm very disappointed that he didn't play and contribute, like our 5th and 7th rounders did, but I also agree that he was coming into one of our stronger units. WE may have wanted to see him in game action, but remember that DJ sees him trying to cover Lee and Peerless and Roscoe all week long all season long. What bothers me is the idea that he was not able to recover from his slow start to push KT or McGee on the depth chart, although I also think that with the unit performing well and DJ's loyalty to players, he wasn't going to rock the boat just to rock the boat. Hopefully it isn't a sign of something worse. So I'm really disappointed that for 2006 we got zero contribution from a first and third round draft pick, along with not having a 2nd rounder. That's a long draft gap between starting safeties at #8 and #105. But still, between Whitner, Ko, Kyle, Ellison, and Pennington, I think we got plenty of contribution in the first year from this draft. So we can afford to have two slow starters. What is exciting is that McCargo and Youboty both have the upside to be the equivalent of first round picks in 2007, and if both can contribute as rookies+, I think that bodes very well for our future.

Our O-Line is not good, and people have to be careful not to judge it as good. I want to pick up a fourth DT to go with Larry, Kyle, and John, but to consider this a priority above RG is crazy (not saying which pick for which, because often you can find value lower for OG). Same with LB unless Fletcher walks. It is an area I'd like to upgrade, but not a crucial need like O-Line. So weaknesses on the O-Line right now: #1 RG - Preston can return to the backup role and try to climb the depth chart at starting center. We need a new RG. #2 LG - Gandy has seen his ceiling and it is called "okay". He hasn't sucked like he did at LT, but there is a reason that even though most of our running was the left, we often went outside. If we can find a second guard better than him for a decent value I would love to make the upgrade here as well. #3/4 RT/C - I don't think we upgrade three O-Line positions, which would neglect other areas, but neither Pennington nor Fowler really shined. Pennington is big and young, so I'm keeping my fingers crossed he can develop, and would definitely get my starting nod right now. Fowler is smart and does his job, even if he doesn't have the size and strength to be better than that. I hope Preston or Merz pushes him out over the next couple years on merit, but I'm not going to use resources adding another center right now. Obviously we have only one of five positions that shines, and that is Left Tackle. Peters is a joy. Watch him for a whole game just focusing on him (BuffaloBills.com cam if you want). He made Gandy look better than he was (like Preston made Pennington look worse than he was), and is a true joy to have on this team long term.

Yeah, we reached for Whitner, and maybe should have taken Ngata or traded down, but it happened and we have a quality player out of it. I sure hope they are right about McCargo. I think he has a lot of upside and will hit camp next year in better shape and more mature than this year, and be more than a rookie. Could end up being one of our biggest off season acquisitions in effect. I haven't seen any mock's that shed much light on anything, but they still are fun to look at. Bookmark some of them so you can go back and laugh on draft day. A very very inexact science.

I hope we can keep Nate, but I think it would be stupider for us to tie up too many resources and ignore other needs by overpaying him in what is likely to be a crazy market with overspending owners. If he walks we are instantly a worse team, so I hope we find a way, including some pretty big money. But we have to find the best value out there, and we don't determine Nate's price...31 other owners and Nate himself determine that. We need to go as high as we can and still find value, but not go past what makes sense just because another owner decides to.

That's what I think. I don't see any of the teams going into SD and winning. The two losses on the season were to KC and Baltimore, who could end up being the exact two teams they have to beat to go to the Super Bowl, but I think that the Chargers match up well with each, and nearly beat each one the first time around on the road. The Patriots are like the Yankees. I'm always scared of them until they are eliminated, then I am very happy. In the NFC (stands for Nobody F@#$in Cares), Dallas isn't playing well, Philly and the Giants are flawed teams, and Seattle would have to win on the road. I think that makes the title game between the two by teams, and however tough it might be in CHI, I think the Saints can pull the upset, especially if the QB controversy isn't settled in the first Bears game. SD against NO doesn't seem like a fair matchup, so it would be up to Cinderella magic, and not common sense for the NFC to win.

Just as an initial gesture I opened an "Official" Nate/CB discussion thread. I hope it works, and we can keep it alive and on topic, and start similar threads on the other big topics with clear titles and focuses. So anybody who is onboard on the idea help me out by adding your thoughts on the subject, and then we can figure out what thread to start next (I think starting a couple at a time is fine, but starting 15 official threads at once will probably cause the whole idea to fail).

In the spirit of keeping some focus this off season and avoiding duplicate threads and off-topic posts (as mentioned in another thread ), I'm opening this thread as a place for discussion of Nate Clements, his contract situation, his value, and our alternatives at corner. My opinion is that keeping Nate would be great all things being equal, but with the monster contract he is going to be after (and likely get), he probably does not represent value to the Bills, and we probably have to shed a tear and let him walk. If so, one option is staying with what we have, and hoping Youboty can step into those big shoes, with McGee staying at the other Corner and KT or someone new as the nickel. The worry there is that Youboty was unable to crack our lineup much this year after his slow start, and that might be more responsibility than he can handle this soon. The second option is signing another less expensive free agent corner from a list that includes: Asante Samuel UFA New England Patriots Ken Hamlin, UFA, Seattle Seahawks Roc Alexander, RFA, Denver Broncos Jordan Babineaux, RFA, Seattle Seahawks Jason David, RFA, Indianapolis Colts Randall Gay, RFA, New England Patriots Nick Harper, UFA, Indianapolis Colts David Macklin, UFA, Arizona Cardinals The third main option is drafting a corner high, which I hope we don't do unless there is really exceptional value. I would rather see the first day picks go to the lines, maybe linebacker, and other positions only if they blow us away as the best football talent available at our draft slot. Drafting a planned need can greatly reduce the value you get unless you are lucky. So the question arises what is a fair price for Nate? How high can we go before we have to forget about it? I think Marv should figure that out and make his highest offer pretty early, rather than try to get into a bidding war when Nate is closer to phone calls from Daniel Snyder, etc. I was rooting for Youboty all year, but was very disappointed that he wasn't able to get more playing time away from McGee and KT who are solid but not stellar DBs. Have at it guys, and hopefully this thread can grow long and stay on topic, and we can avoid duplicate threads about the Nate/CB situation.

I think we need to bring some order to the forum, but I don't think a schedule is the answer. I think what matters is reducing the number of threads created (not creating a thread where there already is one), and trying to make posts intelligent and relevent. So I would like to see some big long threads develop for certain topics, and avoid other threads on the exact same topic. I'm with Ozymandius that we should pick out some good thread subjects and start these main topics, and then do our best to discourage other threads covering the exact same stuff. I don't think that they have to be pinned, because if we focus on them they will get bumped to the top naturally, and the ones that aren't interesting can drop off. So certainly a London Fletcher thread and a Nate Clements thread would make sense, covering news and views on these two until their situations are resolved. Ditto for the other free agents, the draft, etc. So let's brainstorm up a good list of some clearly described threads, and then try to discourage/ignore threads that duplicate these subjects, as well as off topic posts to these threads.

In a perfect world take a OG or DT, but if that isn't the best player available at #12. Blalock and Okoye are my early favorites at these positions, but if we can't keep London (I think we will) we might find more LB talent here than in free agency. Get us some good players Marv!

I like the idea of the team having London, Nate, and Steinbach, but I can't imagine any way the three happen. I don't think people have realized the inflation that this offseason will cause with the salary cap changes. IF somehow Ralph allows Marv to max out to the salary cap, I just don't see Nate and Steinbach together as a smart way to spend our monopoly money. Nate played great this year, but is going to be overvalued by the market, and we have to make him our best offer, and move on when he accepts double that from somebody making a silly decision. Like the Oakland A's getting better as they let Giambi and Tejada walk, we need to be smarter than the biggest spenders. I really want one or maybe two new guards (depending on if the draft/market allows us to find a second pickup better than Gandy), and we should definitely invite Steinbach to Buffalo and make him an offer, but again I don't think the highest bid will be ours or will be a smart football decision. I really do want to see London stay. I think he has some good football left, and is our veteran defensive captain. I also don't think he will get the crazy offers Nate and Steinbach will, so hopefully this is more likely. So I like the team you put together, I just don't think it has any chance of fitting under the salary cap.

Cool. Glad King is noticing. I don't know if I give props to Donahoe too much. Couldn't Peters have been a 7th round pick if he really saw something? Seems more like TD got lucky, and all the Bills fans get to reap the benefits.

Yeah, Dante might not be great, and Ngata might be the better player. But we have a very solid starter who is going to contribute a lot over the next five seasons, and contributed a lot this year. Not a glamorous pick and maybe not the absolute best player we could have gotten, but far from a bust.

Great post as always. Some feedback: 1) Kyle Williams will be limited by his talent and frame, but you know he will be working as hard this off season in the weight room as he does on the field, and I expect him to get better and always be a fan favorite. I still hope we get another tackle along with Larry and McCargo, because if Kyle is #4 in the rotation things are looking good. 3) I think to mention Dante as a bust is a little much. This guy is going to be our starter forever and playing along with rookie Ko, has done a great job in the secondary. I'd love to see the hits like that one more and more, and take over the middle of the field, but he is already a solid pick. 5) Fowler is not big and strong. I like him, and think he gets penciled in as our 2007 starter and we don't aquire a new center, but I hope that Preston or Merz can emerge and hop over him based on merit. But I think a sign of Fowler's physical ability is that we never QB sneak on short yardage, which most other teams do, and we don't pound the ball up the middle on goal line plays. He just can't get that push. 6) I'm mixed on Gandy. Getting two quality guards will be tough, but I'd love to make it happen. Our weaker guard is Preston who is our #1 need, but if we can get a second guard better than Gandy without giving up too much, I will be very happy. 7) TKO has had a rough year. But remember that injuries like his take longer to get to 100% than to get back on the field. His off season workouts were severely affected, and then the hamstring set him back. He is a proud guy and a hell of an athlete. Unless his ankle is permanently hobbling (could be, but I don't think so), he will work his butt off this off season, and hit 2007 in much better condition than he was at any point this year. 8) Pennington has enough youth, size, and talent to go into 2007 as the starter. I'm not sure how great he will be, and he does get a lot of help and we don't run right, but I think on film he has done well blocking the guy in front of him, and hope he can progress and play better with a strong RG next to him. 9) Peters is the story of the 2006 Bills. This is a cornerstone of our future, and I hope he stays healthy and stays a Bill forever.

12 seems a little high for Blalock, my early favorite. We do have to see what we do with Nate and London. OG is our biggest need. We need to somewhere in the draft or free agency get Preston back to a backup competing to become our future center. Other than that we can do what builds winners: take the best football players available (biased to team needs when perceived value is equivalent). Recent #12s Ngata Shawn Merriman Jonathan Vilma (Lee Evans 13th) Jimmy Kennedy (Polamalu 16th) Wendall Bryant (Jeremy Shockey 14th) Damione Lewis (Marcus Stroud 13th, Steve Hutchinson 17th) Shaun Ellis (John Abraham 13th) So tons of talent available at this pick, and if we are smart we can get a serious impact player whatever the position is. It is very important to evaluate talent and not worry about what we "need" or you end up with the reach picks instead of the best value.

Yep, the only thing standing between the Bills and the playoffs was finishing 9-7. A couple more yards for a Lindell kick last week and avoiding the two INTs (and converting the 1st and goal from the 3) today. Oh well, we have 8 months to talk about the draft and free agency and training camp, and get ready for an exciting 2007 in year two of the DJ/ML era.

Play nice boys. Nobody wants to read your combined hissy fit, they want to read about thoughts on Willis. I think Willis showed a lot of guts this year, running hard behind a one way (LEFT) line, and showed some nice flashes. I think that he isn't worth huge money, but since he is still young, and still talented, I'm looking forward to seeing him in a Bills uni with an improved team next year, and wouldn't mind seeing him signed to a reasonably priced extension (since I think he will be better in 2007 than 2006 and cost more if we wait. I would rather keep Willis at this point than spend draft picks to get someone who may or may not be better, but I won't be heart broken if we end up losing him and have to replace the most replaceable position in football.

I'm happy to have 12 or 13 since we don't get the playoffs. But anybody who thinks winning today would have hurt this team has no clue. Beating a top team fighting for a bye on the road to end the season would have been worth more to this team and its quest to get better than the change in the draft position. But getting the #12 or #13 pick instead of the #21 (we would have finished pretty low in the strength of schedule tie breaker at 8-8) is a nice consolation prize after not pulling the upset. And a big win for Seattle making the #1 they give up to New England a lot lower (now if they can get to the Super Bowl they would really screw the Pats). What is the strength of schedule tiebreaker with GB and SF for the 11th-13th picks if we all finish tied? I have to think we come up at the bottom of that and need a GB win to get up to 12th.

We are #10 to #13 depending on the tie breaker and what Green Bay does tonight and if SF wins in OT. #10-13 GB 7-8 (@CHI) Atl 7-9 BUF 7-9 SF 6-9 (@DEN, OT)

Wow, 7 teams locked in at 8-8. Could be up to 10. So either we get a huge momentum win at Baltimore (my first choice) or a big swing in draft position (our consolation prize). Go Bills, Go Falcons, Go Packers! I think only the super bowl teams get bumped to the bottom. Other than that it is based on regular season finish.

Good point. Doesn't affect us directly, but Since they will have a record right in the crowded waters, Go Seahawks!

Go Titans. A Pats loss AND better draft position for the Bills? I'm onboard, start the Vinsanity!

Where do I sign the petition? Steinbach and Blalock are my two early favorites to improve our line (FA and draft respectively), and getting both would be huge, and make give us a very good line even as Fowler is occasionally out muscled and Pennington is a work in progress. But letting London walk means we need LB support, and I hope doesn't happen. Kelsey will end up staying, but I think we would get by without him with Denny/Hargrove. But Steinbach and Nate together (and London maybe) is some big big bucks, and I don't see both happening.

Ichiro gets to wear his first name on his jersey in baseball. What's up with that too? Kinda like Indy deciding to make "Peyton" jerseys since there are two Mannings but only one Payton. My favorite is still when there are two of the same first letter last name and players have to put Mi Smith and Ma Smith on their backs.