JohnC

I strenuously disagree with how you are characterizing my position. The additional pick that resulted in Kiko from the trade down was a superb move. I applaud the maneuver. But I stand strong on my position that taking EJ at the spot he was taken is a mistake because he didn't merit a first round grade and selection. That pick could have been used on a higher rated player (such as OL or TE). Including Kiko with a high rated position worthy of the first round selection would have been a better approach to take in my estimation. Your position is that by getting Kiko as a bonus pick that justifies the over-drafting of a developmental qb. That makes little sense to me. Getting Kiko and another first round value pick, regardless of position would have been more prudent and productive. Odds are that EJ could have been available in the second round for us. He was not a first round talent because he simply was too raw of a qb prospect to have been taken in the first round. The consensus analysis of EJ as a prospect was that he was a developmental type prospect who was years away from developing his game. Anyone who has watched him in the early stages of his career can't help to agree with his pre-draft evaluations. Those evaluations do not match his first round status that the Bills bestowed on him. My overarching point in my commentary is that it is not wise to overreach in the draft to fill needs. That is what happened with the EJ selection. When you select a developmental player and rush the player into action before he is ready you end up in a situation where the HC quickly uses the hook on the player in order to salvage a season and his job.

The trade down argument has little sway with me. The trade down was smart in that it got us an additional pick and good player in Kiko. But that doesn't mean that the selection of EJ in the first round was a good value pick. That picked could have been used on a quality OL or TE prospect. There is no doubt that the first images of young qbs don't necessarily indicate how good the qbs are going to be. What I can say with confidence after watching Bridgewater for a few games and watching EJ is that Bridgewater is a better passer and has a better feel for the game. EJ has the stronger arm and the more imposing physical stature. But when you watch both qbs play it is apparent (at least to me) that Bridgwater is the better prospect. He is much more polished in his game compared to the raw manner that EJ has shown so far. I hope I'm wrong in my assessment but what I see is what I see.

I don't understand your logic that it would have been irresponsible for the Bills to wait another year for a better qb class. Regardless how impressive his physical tools were he was not a first round talent. If they would have selected in a lower round that would have made more sense. If the Bills would have picked up a veteran qb as a temporary fix and drafted Bridgewater the next year they would now have a better qb prospect on the roster. Anyone who watches Bridgewater and EJ throwing passes and running their offenses will if they have a penny's worth of objectivity conclude that Bridgewater is immensely a better prospect.

You do what other teams do. You find temporary solutions. Houston had nothing at qb. They picked up Fitz and Mallett. Don't you think that their front office was aware that both qbs were merely temporary answers? There are plenty of second tier type qbs that can be had for reasonable prices. Qbs such as McNown, Hoyer, Shaub, Orton, etc. Backup qbs are available. We had Taveris Jackson and for some inexplicable reason he wasn' given an opportunity to play. Arizona didn't pay a hefty price for Palmer. He and the team are thriving in Arizona. The central point I am making in my posts is that you don''t use a first round pick on a developmental type qb. That is foolish. EJ could turn out to be a good qb in time but he clearly falls in the developmental category. If you don't have your future qb in a particular draft you don't overreach in the hope that the longshot pick will turn out to be better than his draft projection. If the franchise qb is not in a particular draft year then wait for the next year while you find a temporary fix for the short term. That is exactly what the Bills did with the very late Orton pickup. When you use a first round pick on a qb you are investing on a player you want to be your franchise qb for the long-term. In my opinion it isn't wise to use that high of a pick on developmental type qb.

Would I wait if the prospects available are not in the high end? Absolutely! The Bills drafted a developmental type qb in the first round. If you want to draft that type of raw qb prospect why do it with your first round? When you use a first round pick on a qb you are investing in a player that you believe has a very good chance of developing. A developmenal type qb should never be drafted in the first round. I'm not sure what your point is with Geno Smith and the Jets? I would not have taken him in either the first or second round like the Jets did because I don't believe that he is a top tier qb prospect. Look at how he is performing? He wasn't worth where he was selected. Taking him in the third round might have made more sense for the Jets. If some other team took him then so be it. Your point about the possibility of Bridgewater getting hurt has me perplexed. Every player in the draft and who is playing in the NFL risks getting hurt. So what is the point you are making? Didn't EJ suffer an injury or two in his rookie year? The point I have been making in the prior posts is that the Bills didn't have to draft a qb because of a desperate need if the franchise type qb prospect wasn't there to be had. Reaching for players for a positional need is a recipe for failure.

There is an assumption made in many posts (including yours) that there was a requirement to take a qb in that draft year. That is not the case. The Bills could have still traded down, acquired Kiko, and select a player at another position of need such as an offensive lineman or TE. When an organization drafts a qb in the first round,whether high or low, it is investing in a player who they believe will eventually be their franchise qb. If none of the prospects in that particular qb starved draft don't measure up to being a high end qb prospect then the best approach is to draft another higher rated player at another position. No one can reasonably state that talent at other positions weren't also needed. Instead of reaching in EJ's draft year you either wait for lower round to draft a developmental qb or you simply don't draft a qb because you are desperate for one. Wouldn't it have been better to wait until this year's draft and pick for example Bridgewater or Carr who are better long term prospects? I have watched Bridgwater in a few games this year and it is very obvious that he is simply better than the qb we reached for two years ago. Acting/drafting out of desperation is a recipe for failure. Reaching for a need is rarely better than selecting the better talent, regardless of position. Whaley was enamored with EJ and rated him higher than most other organizations. The bottom line is that he was a developmental prospect who was drafted higher than he should have been. I want EJ to succeed and I'm rooting for this high quality person. But when I watched Bridgewater it was apparent to me that he was a much more developed and a betterr prospect than Manuel.

When Nix took over this team it was barely better than an expansion team. There was no quick fix to the situation, especially for a franchise that had a tendency to operate in a parsimonious fashion. (Don't misunderstand what I am saying. The core of the problem wasn't spending enough money as it was simply a third rate staffed football operation making a lot of poor decisions.) Nix did upgrade the talent pool compared to the wasted Levy/Brandon era. Although he was an upgrade over his dismal predecessors he still was a mediocre steward of the franchise compared to many other well staffed operations. If you analyze the Bills football operation it was a continuous churning of staff and philosophies. If you analyze the Bills business operation it was a stable operation that didn't change its staffing. If Ralph Wilson took the same approach with the football side of the business as he did with the business side of the operation this franchise would have been more stable and competitive. I believe that Whaley is a competent GM who has an understanding what it takes to be successful. Without a doubt his model is the Steeler model. I also believe that Brandon is the right person to oversee the business of the organization with an understanding what support Whaley needs to be successful. If Pegula is as smart as I think he is he will keep the current staffing in place for the near future and see how things develop. It's not about the money as it is about the level of competency from the football side of the business.

I hope that Whaley does a hardnosed examination of EJ's prospects and makes a determination about him as a franchise qb. Sometimes when one is instrumentally involved with a player's selection their is lesser objectivity because of the personal investment in the pick. Whaley has seen first hand from his Pittsburgh experience what a foundational qb can do for a franchise. He is well aware that the selection of Roethlisberger has allowed the Steelers to be a serious franchise for more than a decade. If you look at the EJ selection you see that there are similar physical traits associated with strong arms and large stature. In addition there are even more interpersonal and character traits that make EJ even more appealing. My thought on the qb issue is that although many people are very dubious about whether Manuel can become a quality franchise qb Whaley is more optimistic about his prospects as the longterm franchise qb. Bringing Orton into the fold has taken away the urgency to make a quicker determination on EJ. I suspect that the Bills won't be selecting a qb in next year's draft because they will continue to work with Manuel on upgrading his skills. Does he have the potential to develop into a franchise qb? That is the question that Whaley is not in my opinion rush to answer. He is going to allow the situation to play out before he comes to a conclusion.

When all is said and done Fitz will have carved out a long non-illustrious career and made a lot of money. Because he is such a prudent and smart individual he and his family will be financially set for the rest of their lives. When all is said and done he will be a testament to the category of players who used the game for their betterment and then moved on to do whatever they want to do for the rest of their lives. He is the type of person that in his numerous stops everyone likes and respects him, and wishes him well. Not bad for a low round draft choice out of Harvard.

Bridgewater throws a very nice medium and short range ball. He is accurate and has a nice touch to his passes. He is a much more polished passer than EJ is. EJ has a stronger arm but his mechanics compared to Bridgewater are very raw. Minnesota moved back up into the bottom of the first round to draft a qb. So far they seemed to have made a very wise decision.

Troup was a bad pick regardless of the scheme. He was an undersized NT with a history of back problems. When he played he struggled because he was an undersized NT who had back problems. What a shock!

I've watched Bridgewater in a couple of games. He more than any other rookie qb is quickly adjusting to the pro game. He is an accurate passer who moves well in and out of the pocket. He has struggled with the deep throws but his medium and short passes are very good. In the games that I have witnessed he has handled setbacks and mistakes with maturity.. He's not like Geno Smith who hangs his head and exhibits very poor body language when he is struggling. He is much more resilient and composed as a qb. From my vantage his coaching staff is handingly him very well. They are steadily bringing him along without overwhelming him. Thus far I am very impressed.

You clearly laid out the defining issue relating to EJ: accuracy. For the most part you either have it or you don't. When you watch a qb who is impeccably accurate you notice a naturalness and instictiveness in motion compared to the more mechanical type thrower who struggles with consistency with one's fundamentals. In baseball, regardless how strong an arm you have, if you don't have good control you won't succeed in the majors. Pitchers can over-power batters in the minors but when you play at the highest level not having mastery of your pitches is a standard recipe for failure. There are only a couple of ptichers that I can think of who were flamethrowers without control who belatedly mastered their ptiches and accurately located their pitches. Randy Johnson and Sandy Koufax both belatedly learned how to pitch compared to simply throw hard. But overall there are few examples of these types of late bloomers.with respect to the accuracy issue. The best thing that happened to EJ (even though he might not realize it) is that he was replaced by Orton, a veteran qb,,It allowed him as a backup to relax and work on his fundamentals. Will time and added work help him to become a more accomplished passer? Only time will tell. Regardless that he was drafted in the first round the reality was that he was a developmental qb prospect. The rushing out of necessity to get him on the field probably didn't do much to help him with his game. Now he is in the role that he should have been when he joined the team, and that is the best thing for his long-term prospects.

I have been skeptical about Manuel's ability to significantly increasse his accuracy level. That is the central issue with him. My feeling is that an inaccurate qb rarely develops the sharp accuracy to play in a tight window passing game. However, EJ is a physically gifted athlete who is also a high character guy. He has a tremendous work ethic in which he will use to improve his erratic mechanics. EJ was a developmental type prospect who was thrust into action before he was prepared to do so. As a backuup he is in the role that he should have been when he joined the team. When he was replaced by Orton he didn't mope and complain. He reacted with class and dignity. His response was to work harder on his game. With that type of mature attitude you can't help rooting for him. The bottom line is that EJ has some impressive assets and he has some glaring flaws, mostly associated with his mechanics and passing skills. If he can smooth out his flaws he will have a chance to be a legitimate franchise qb. If not he will fall by the wayside in this very tough show me business. Are you aware that he was benched in the first third of the season for a veteran qb? If that isn't an acknowledgement that at ths time he wasn't ready to be a starter then what is?

The front office was well aware prior to the season that the OL needed upgrading. That was evident in their drafting of three offensive linemen, including a second round pick, all making the squad. In addition, they generously paid free agent Chris Williams to play guard. The bottom line is there is still a lot of work to be done to get this subpar line into being a credible line.

I hope I'm wrong with my suspicions regarding EJ's long term prospects. The reality is that he was over-drafted. He was a developmental type prospect who had intriguing physical and character talents. The situation he is in now is the best situation for him, a backup behind a veteran qb. Although he struggled with his early playing time it should serve him well in his development. Whaley was influentially involved in the drafting of EJ. He is too invested in him to quickly pull the plug. The problem with Whaley's involvement with his selecton is does that influence him to pass on another qb prospect because he waits to see if EJ can live up to his expectations? Everyone involved with the franchise acknowledges that Manuel is a terrific person who has an outstanding work ethic. Almost everyone is rooting for him. But that doesn't mean that the people who have watched him play so far are confident about his long-term propsects.

What one needs to consider is that Orton didn't join the Bills until late in training camp. As a backup he certainly didn't get the reps that the starter got. My point is that as a new Bill he was rusty and wasn't very acquainted with the receivers. He should be getting better as a passer the more he works with the offense and the receivers as a starter. The current Orton is in a very different situation than when he was with Chicago simply because he is much more experienced. Regardless how he played with Chicago he has demonstrated at this very preliminary stage with the Bills that he can make the throws with accuracy and with touch. The McNabb comparison isn't very relevant when comparing to Orton in this setting. McNabb was a rookie when you cited his low accuracy rate. He certainly improved his accuracy with experience. The point you seem to be making is that EJ is still young and there is plenty of room for him to develop from an accuracy standpoint. That is the question? I'm not going to automatically dismiss his chances of improving his accuracy but from what I have seen so far I have my doubts. His mechanics are simply atrocious. You tend to blame his raw/erratic passing skills on his coaching while I don't to the extent you do. For me you either have it (accurracy) or you don't. I hope I am wrong but this coaching staff was concerned enough after watching EJ in the offseason, training camp and preseason to aggressively pursue Orton in order to protect themselves. As I said in the prior post Jake Locker and EJ are both physical talents with high character attributes who in my opinion lack the passing skills to make them a success in this league. I also want to make it clear that I'm not elevating Orton to an upper tier level. He is an average starter at best. That in itself is a major upgrade from the qb that he replaced.

As you noted he regularly hits his receivers in stride so they can seamlessly run after catch. Contrast that with EJ who (at this point) seems incapable of hitting the receiver, including the backs, in stride. I don't want to veer away from the topic and gratuitously criticize Manuel as a passer. But I've come to the conclusion that you either have accuracy from the start, with a limited ability to dramatically improve that aspect of the game, or you don't. QBs such as Jake Locker and EJ have impressive physical attributes and high character traits that can tantalize the scouts but in the end you either can accurately throw the ball with touch or you can't.

In the game agains the Jets he made two exceptional throws that I have not very often seen from the hometown qb post Kelly era. He made a precise pass to Woods who was covered like a blanket for a TD. Woods used his body to screen out the CB and made the catch. There was no margin for area for the pass because the the receiver was well covered. He zinged it in there. The other exceptional pass was the pass to Chandler in the endzone. Orton had to throw the pass to a well covered Chandler who had DBs in front of him and behind him. The coverage was excellent. Orton with a good touch and velocity got the pass over the CB in front of Chandler and layed it in there so the receiver covering Chandler from behind couldn't respond to the accurately thrown pass. It was a beautifully thrown ball. In the game against Minnesota on the critical last drive Orton threw a strike to Watkins who gained enough YAC to get a first down and keep the drive alive. What was most impressive about that pass was that it allowed Watkins to keep his stride after catching the pass. It's been a long time since we have had a qb who is as accurate as he is. He is not simply a thrower but he is an accomplished passer.

The Redskins have the money and the need. They are going to probably let Orakpo go (now injured) and could comfortably use his contract space for Huges. He would be a very appealing player for them.

Look for Hughes to be courted by the Redskins. Orakpo was on (I believe) a one year $11 M deal. He underperformed and is now out for the season with an injury. He will probably be allowed to walk. Hughes fits in well with what they want to do. Whaley is going to earn his money working the cap puzzle trying to prioritize the talent up for new contracts. Most people would agree that Dareus is the priority. He surprised me with his quantum leap forward, especially after a problematic offseason. If I'm not mistaken Orton has another year on his deal. It wouldn't be surprising if his agent "requests" an added value contract. .

You are astute!

The game plan is worked out in advance. As a veteran qb I'm sure he has input that is considered. As a starting veteran qb he has the authority to change the play at the line of scrimmage. It doesn't appear that he is altering the play at the line of scrimmage too often? It wouldn't be too surprising that the approach to the game is due to the fact that our OL is poor and there is an emphasis on protecting the qb. If he gets hurt because he is over-exposed the chances for this team are minimal.

Wasn't there an inside handoff to the FB (Summers) for a TD near the goal line? You are well aware that our OL, especially the interior, is bad, really bad. Before you resort to gimmickery on offense you need to master the basics. The OL is working on mastering their A-B-Cs---they are not cloes to their X-Y-Zs. As I stated in the prior post the more Orton plays the more the playbook will be expanded.

The core of the offense's problems is the OL. As a unit they are bad, very bad. That limits what you can do. Orton is a very efficient passer. His mobility is statuesque! He has to be proected---it is being done by the cautious nature of the playcallling. If he goes down it would be a crushing blow. After the bye week I wouldn't be surprised if the play calling got more aggressive. The qb is still in being acquainted with his players and with the offense. I understand the complaints with the playcalling but I do understand the way the offense is being handled the way it is so far.