OCinBuffalo

This is asinine. Anyway, the fact is that anyone who has been there will tell you that the furthest thing from one's mind is finding a way to get out of doing one's duty. I honestly don't see how one can be in that environment and not come away with a deep sense of Duty, Honor, and Country. As such, the notion that somehow he is trying to "get out" of something or that he would be unhappy to join the rest of his classmates, basically the people he has eaten, slept, drank, pissed, dug holes, sweat, bled, and had to put up with through good and bad, is not even close to reality. The reason West Point people are so highly sought after in every profession is because they are carefully selected before they even get there, and a large part of that selection process has to do with weeding out the weak, and that continues right through graduation, especially those who would look at going to war with/being there for one's classmates as something to "get out of". Perhaps it's the Honor part that's hard to understand? Or is it the Duty? I don't think most people even care about the Country part anymore, so maybe that's it.

Probably right, if the above is true, and it's not like Payton has a reason to lie or gain something from saying that.

Per Peter King: While sitting with Marv, DJ, and Modrak at the 2007 combine saying "Yeah, but we need to stop the run". I wish they had found a way to trade for Stroud last year. Oh yeah, and, saying that fans are allowed to write whatever they want on banners in the stadium(the Donahoe Death Knell).

I agree that the locker room should take care of this. However, I am sick to death of this character tag on Hardy. Ellis I can understand because it is on the field, "he wants to get PAID", and we can all see it on film if we want(BTW, what's wrong with a pro football player wanting to make money? The real question is whether he wants to earn it or thinks he already deserves it). The Hardy thing is way overplayed in terms of what actually happened vs. what people are saying. And, the best evidence of that is that nothing, exactly nothing like that has happened again. Not saying he won't do it again, I am saying he hasn't, and we should give him the benefit of the doubt until he does.

Alright, enough already. This thread has gone from asking a reasonable question to beyond annoying, primarily because many of these posts rely on BS projections and chain rule logic. More importantly, some posters here have been been petty enough to cast big, negative aspersions on this guy after one incident and no repeats, and that is highly unfair. No one has any idea what he's going to be like as a player and as a man than the scouts at the Bills. As Bills fans, we have given our players the benefit of the doubt historically as a rule and have benefited greatly by it. That is, unless you don't like the 20 mostly Pro-Bowl players that were given second chances here; that have been listed over and over again(James Lofton, etc.) ad nauseum on this board. Look, if you are having a bad day, pissed at somebody, whatever, I don't care, it's not OK to take it out on this kid. That's no way to welcome him to our town and then turn around and ask him to go out there and win for us, especially going over the middle and taking shots. Of course we'll get to hear the bitching if he doesn't get 1000 yards and 30 TDs. However, this BS is exactly how you ensure this kid ends up with a Terrell Owens attitude if he does get those numbers. This kid has had nobody in his life and had to raise himself. I think it's high time we start supporting a kid who started life at -20 and found a way to get to 10. That's a hell of a lot more movement in terms of achievement than most people can claim, we need to recognize that, and start out celebrating that and encouraging him, not constantly demonstrating how petty we can be. I am not saying kiss his ass or give him a pass for bad play. I am saying if you have nothing nice to say, and nothing factual other than what happened 2 years ago and was resolved, then it's probably better to say nothing. And of course, I fully expect dumb-ass WGR to keep running their mouths about this, since they "don't know the draft" what the hell else are they going to talk about? It's our job either challenge them on this or ignore them, not feed into it, especially when they start acting like Hardy is Britney Spears. Edit: looking back on this it might be a little harsh, but I have been reading, watching, hearing this "character" thing and it's like Marshawn Lynch all over again.

Another take: Winslow has been hurt, a lot, and they probably need to make sure they can get a guy to back him up. If they base their O on strong TE play, but they lose that guy to injury, they better have a back up plan.

Perhaps we haven't been looking at this right given the new NFL(um, collective bargaining agreement). Perhaps it makes sense to let lineman develop on somebody else's roster for 3 years, play well, and then get them in FA when we know what we are getting, than draft one in the first round and overpay during the development time. Meanwhile, we could have drafted skill players like RB, CB, and LB who have a much better chance of coming in and starting right away. Perhaps that's the new thinking, but then again, Nick Mangold at the Jets kinda blows that idea up.

Isn't that precisely what we did? O line last year, Stoud and Mitchell this year? And the last three drafts?

Right, and like i said, our O line, playing together for the first time, did a great job. I will take giving up the least # of sacks over (actually it's more like 70 million) Nate Clements every day. And I would much rather have to draft replacement corners every other year, than constantly keep breaking up the continuity of the O line. O line is unlike every other position in terms of real team work, and you have to have guys who know each other well. The real comparison people need to make with the SB teams is this: how long has their O line been together?

I'll second that. It's like people forgot that Nate Clements lost us a game a couple of times and gave 10 yard cushions on 7 yard slant plays all day. Winfield was a much, much better player at corner, and we should have kept him. Clements needed to go, IMO, not because he wasn't good, but because he was never anywhere near great. McKelvin has a chance to be great, especially when you consider things like going up against Calvin Johson, one of the best WR prospects in years, and allowing a whopping 2 catches for 9 yards. I would always rather take a guy who has a chance to be great, than a guy who might be safer historically at his position, but will only ever approach good. Of course, that all depends on where the rest of the team stands. If our O line didn't give up the least # of sacks last year, I might be inclined to see things differently. But they did give up the least # of sacks last year, and, more importantly, they had a chance to play a full season together. Continuity at O line, not this endless merry-go-round we have had, is going to pay off huge for us, finally. It's for that reason alone that we shouldn't be looking to change things, unless for example, Fowler just completely folds. We'll see, but I am looking forward to seeing McKelvin play in camp and pre-season.

I expect him to do the same thing Whitner did in his first month, win best Defensive Player.... Seriously, if you look at how the draft went, the real studs on D line were long gone by the time it got to us. I hated the Jacksonville trade and I think they got ripped off. I don't care what your grade on one player is, this is the draft, one player is too risky and is not worth 3 players. The difference for them is that they think they are only 1-2 players away, so it makes it OK, but I don't agree. In contrast, I think we were wise to stay put. The O line that was available weren't anywhere near graded as high as McKelvin, if you take the 'experts' word for it, and all of them had a flag or two, mostly injuries. I am not for taking the 4th best or 5th best at any position, when the #1 guy at another position is available, in the first round. Why should we settle for 4th place? Also, since we don't draft in a vacuum, I think that the decision to draft McKelvin was helped out massively by of all people, the Pats*. They needed multiple guys at LB, since all of them are older than I am, and so they kept trading down, because teams kept giving them a reason to, and they needed the picks. Except their strategy failed when Cincy took the LB they wanted, hence they traded down again, leaving the door open for McKelvin. So, we ended up with a guy projected by everybody to go at 7-9, at 11 instead. As far as my personal expectations go, I expect him to start and to do only a decent job against Moss, just like he did with all the top receivers in the nation he faced in college(well actually he kicked a lot of their asses, but that was college). That's why we got him and that's what he's supposed to do. Anything less than that will be a disappointment for me.

4 WR set that I really like: Evans Hardy Reed Parrish Keep Viti or Lynch into block/safety valve. Hardy has to draw some safety attention leaving Evans able to run a double move deep. Same thing really on the other side, even 1v1 over there. Worst case scenario, the safety covers Evans deep the whole way leaving Hardy to beat his man 1v1 or simply use his body to get in position to receive the ball, coupled with Edwards quick release/info processing time, especially on an out pattern once Evans has cleared the zone, and that's an 8 yard play every time. They would have to start cheating down on Hardy to cover that, and that's when Evans starts catching 80 yard TDs. Don't forget, in that package, about our sack stingy O line. Plus, you can run a lot of draws out of that, and I will give Lynch 3 to 1 on being able to get through the line and beat the first tackler in the backfield, or, waiting to release to one side with two WR blockers in front of him. In that case I would just as soon have Reed and Hardy on the same side so that they can brutalize the DBs, um Miami and Pats*, out there. Ahh, creating chaos for defenses, my favorite thing. Now let's see if Turk can make it work in camp, and then actually call it during the games, and if DJ can see his way clear to let them run it on downs other than 3rd.

I don't know how much you tube time you guys have spent on Steve Johnson. Link here Suffice it to say that he is a very exciting player, and he is big time clutch guy. Three huge games last year, LSU, Louisville, and Tennessee, all ranked teams when the played, LSU #1, Louisville #9, Tennesse(I dunno ) and he made the clutch play(s) in all of them. Unreal plays, highlight after highlight, every big game. Reminds me of Drury in that he's always around making a big play when they need it, especially late in the game. Also, as you watch that notice this: he is way wide open over and over again. That can't be a coincidence since it keeps happening every game. You can talk about schemes and mismatches, other players' drawing attention, zones, etc. But a guy getting 10 yards open over and over, for TDs, definitely has to a lot to do with the player, not just that other stuff. So, my answer for this thread is: hopefully Steve Johnson's clutch ability translates to the NFL. I think it will, since being clutch is being clutch, you can't teach it, and it seems to follow some players no matter what.

Relatively simple to fix: our coaches need to get him to understand the simple equation that = success in the NFL. Work ethic and staying out of trouble in the NFL = how much money you make. If this guy works hard because he wants money, the results will follow, and there is nothing wrong with that. If he thinks he is so good and deserving without doing anything then he needs to get a clue. In fact, I imagine there will be no better place for him to learn where he stands than the OTAs and the first few weeks of training camp. My only problem with any of this is if he: 1. Holds out. Before actually doing something in the NFL, he tries to hold out. Good thing the Bills drafted him in the 3rd, because that almost guarantees that his contract will be set in a tight range and there really won't be much to negotiate. Holding out would be height of stupidity, because not only will he alienate us, he will also turn off the rest of the NFL, since nobody cares what a 3rd rounder thinks/says/does. IF he was a first rounder/early second, that might be different. 2. Continues to run his mouth at camp, even after a guy like Kelsay sets him straight. If he keeps talking smack about how good he is that he alienates the team, then that will be a problem. But than again, I don't think with all of the good guys we have on this team, that anyone will be paying him much attention if he keeps going with that. Sooner or later he will get the hint that nobody cares what he says. Bottom line: the starting DEs on this team are guaranteed to be making more $ than Ellis is day 1. So it's simple, "Hey Ellis, you want more/big $$$? Show us that you can unseat one of those starters today, or, learn where the weight room, film room, and practice field are, pick one or the other. There really isn't much else to talk about."

Well we just got our "Real Fullback" Looks like they expect Fine to be a TE. This analysis makes him sound like a world beater. Gotta love the Army football attitude as well, those guys were always hard workers but not tools, or cocky.

Allright, since Fine, they are obviously drafting for ST players with a vengeance. Since we lost 4 good ones, I suppose this makes sense, but I wonder why they wouldn't take a shot on an O line? However, so many O line were drafted yesterday and today there's probably not much left.

No, we pay attention to guys like Mayock because they know what the f they are talking about We don't pay attention to guys like Marshall ("the Bills need to draft a LT") Faulk because they don't.

NFL Network is live on the internet here. Got this link from another thread. This is cool as hell.

How is that possible when this is true: Oh yeah and he lead the nation in tackles as a junior. How can both statements exist at the same in the same universe?

Yeah, those guys were the core of why we have had the best or top 3 special teams units for the last few years. If we want to have any chance against the Pats*, Chargers, etc. we have to beat them in that phase of the game. And Moorman has to have a better year.... That's 4 guys to replace too, not just 1 or 2

Looks like fine was their guy from the combine on per Chris Brown Link

I don't get that one

Yeah he just had to get that in there, huh?

Put the shovel DOWN....

Right, there's this concept in football called: a team. I know this may be a difficult concept to grasp for some posters here, especially the Fantasy people and the "draft line, me likey folks" no matter how ridiuculous the arguement against.. But, when your team members are doing their job at a high level, chances are you are going to do the same.