OCinBuffalo

My "other" point is: I tend to believe that no single, unifying Scientific Method can be used to explore and find and explain everything. Saying otherwise, as I have has stated, makes you just as dogmatic at the ultra-religious. Instead, I like this quote from Nietzche: Linky. (scroll down a bit) 1. Partially because I have been the cause of putting people in a room to solve a problem and have seen the very behavior he describes over and over....and sometimes not, 2. Partially because there are fools like the one I am currently dealing with in this thread who pursue their hatred and attempts at discrediting religion using the very same, non-scientific, tactics of those they claim are so wrong and those they claim to hate so much, 3. and partially because I am simply not comfortable with any man-made construct as being now and forever infallible. Zealotry is zealotry, it's behaviors and consequences are indistinguishable moving from one belief system to the next.

Dude, don't talk about fights. You would lose to me in every kind of fight there is, and I don't pick on the intellectually or physically crippled, unless they keep running their mouths. Yes I have. I can state more, but I'm not going to until we are all sure you understand the first one. I would imagine the existence of a parallel dimension might just be....oh I don't know, the largest scientific discovery of all time...but yeah, you are right. Hint: it's not my theory. It's somebody else's. Somebody who is very relevant to this thread. There is this thing called Google. You may use it at any time to educate yourself. This is the third and final time I am offering you a chance to read up on the material.... Oh, and since we are talking alternate dimension here, we are also talking alternate realities. So of course something that only deals with this this "reality" is going to be flawed. But I am sure you knew that before you posted and are just joking here right? It demands that things be reproduced in order to prove causal relationships. It therefore cannot deal with singular events, such as the possibility of starting a new dimension by driving down the road and turning left instead of right. How about the Big Bang....are you suggesting that we can't believe in that, since it can't be reproduced? That event can only happen once, cannot be repeated a that point in time, therefore cannot be reproduced for study. Therefore the Scientific Method cannot be used to study all things in this universe: which means that, by definition, it is flawed. What? The logic behind the belief? What are you talking about? You are operating under the assumption that the scientific method can be used to explain all things. That is your belief. I point how how that simply cannot be the case, and thereby point out the clear flaw in your logic...and you tell me about limitations? Your the one stating that it can be used to explain everything. It cannot. Therefore, it is inherently flawed. Make up your mind: it either can be used to explain everything or it cannot. If it cannot, then you can't hold it up as Holy writ, like you have been doing this entire thread. There is a giant piece of info I am going to drop on you like a safe in about 2 posts. Focus on why that hasn't occurred to you yet. Out of my depth? You still don't understand any of what I am saying, and I have 3 more flaws left to go. Hint: Carl Sagan said "It means nothing to be open to a proposition we don't understand." In your case, it means nothing to be closed off to a proposition you don't understand.

Try to keep up skippy. I wasn't replying to you. Believe it or not, there are other people besides you in this thread. I have told you 2 times now. Here's some friendly advice, don't argue with an expert, they will only make you look foolish in the end. Want me to start toying with you? Keep it up.

I can't prove what exactly? 1. That I haven't worked with multiple methodologies? Again, I refer you to project manager, enterprise(Fortune 500, last big gig was $45 million) and architect, technical as my qualifications for saying um, yeah dopey, I have done the job. Anything else I say about my qualifications to speak on this matter will be interpreted by you as bragging, so spare me. It suffices to say: I am fully qualified to deliver an expert conclusion on this aspect because...I am a f'ing expert. 2. That I can't prove clear and consistent fault with ALL methodologies, including the Scientific Method? You are free to select any particular methodology you want, and I will find fault with it. If you won't/don't, then you can't say what I am saying is anecdotal, because I am allowing you to chose any, even the ones I haven't worked with(a short list), you also can't say it's unsupported....because I am talking about what I can do, which only requires my support, dumbass, and you also can't say it's irrelevant, because your entire positions centers on what I supposedly can't do. There are no specifics other than to say: you still don't understand the flaw in the Scientific Method as it relates to atomic events. Running your mouth at me, instead familiarizing yourself with the material, does not mitigate your lack of understanding. I'll dumb it down for you: an event that cannot be repeated may still exist. However, the Scientific Method cannot be applied to such an event. By definition, therefore, using the Scientific Method, we are forced to conclude that such events do not in fact exist, even if they happen right in front of us. Hence, this method, like all methods, is inherently flawed.

There's no doubt that the above bolded is a specious argument. Clearly you can't see air, yet you breathe it, so it has to be real. My point is: claiming that God doesn't exist because the Scientific Method says so is ALSO a specious argument. Either side running around claiming superiority on the other is pointless. Once again, telling me that you are an atheist says nothing about your intellectual ability....as evidenced in this and other threads. If you believe in God, do it for the right reasons, recognize that as a personal decision, keep it to yourself when you aren't at church, understand that you can be wrong, and understand that you aren't even close to having an answer on any of this. If you don't believe in God, do it for the right reasons, recognize that as a personal decision, keep it to yourself at all times since, according to you, you don't need a church, understand that you can be wrong, and understand that you aren't even close to having an answer on any of this. Both sides need to handle their own business first, before they go telling other people what to think.

"Ahh there's no reply at all, no reply at all". (Cue Gene Frenkle and the Mary Jane Girls dancing) "No reply. There's no reply at all".

You can't even come close to a response. Once again. What are you now 0-22 against me? Edit: Hell I edited my last to try to take it easy on you. Come on dude....

What's false exactly? ....(this ought to be good) Tell me your vast experience in methodology and about it's infallibility(says the enterprise project manager and technical architect to the....computer guy ...uh yeah...it's a setup....let's see if dopey here sees it.) Since my premise is not false, using it is just fine. Ah yes, concepts you don't understand must be bad/made up. Unsupported how? Again, you not understanding something doesn't mean it doesn't exist/is bad. I am merely stating that clearly the Scientific Method, like all methodologies, cannot be treated as infallible...no different than God, according to you. Having literally lived that reality, and seen plenty of idiots 'die' by it, I know. I can prove the fallibility of all methodologies mathematically any time you choose. I just need to dig up old status reports and budgets, and show you the glaring f ups and project delays, never mind individual's wasted time, costing clients big $$$$ directly due to some tool on a peer project telling us that their method was infallible and should be used to explain and drive all things. Your entire post is merely more evidence that the "God bad" crowd is just as dogmatic, unenlightened and prone to zealotry as the religious zealots themselves. Do yourself a favor and run along. This will only get worse for you....don't try to be "smart". You have already demonstrated your low level of intellectual ability in multiple threads. Remember, being a liberal doesn't make you smart, as evidenced by the current administration, it just makes you think that you or others are entitled to other people's stuff.

Let's see.... Tea bagging partiers, the group, stands for: 1. People, who don't get paid, who want limited government 2. People, who don't get paid, who think taxes are too high 3. People, who don't get paid, who want a strict interpretation of the constitution 4. Insert whatever else here and Acorn, the group, stands for: 1. Paid Organizers who started 20+ years ago by inciting welfare recipients to demand more benefits 2. Paid Organizers that, when welfare got essentially disbanded, started demanding the return of welfare 3. Paid Organizers that essentially take federal money and demand more free/low interest stuff for people that haven't earned any of it. 4. Same as above But, yeah, lets put an "=" sign between them since they are merely on different sides of the issues Acorn WAS a Federally funded, and by definition, organized pork-barrel boondoggle whose major protection WAS "you either fund us or we call you a racist" - as evidenced that it has taken literally 10 separate, really bad news stories for Congress to cut their funds(for only the rest of the year ) , whose corrupt practices, all over the country, have been exposed. The Tea Party "movement"? is a self-funded, disorganized group of regular people who have no such "or else" protection - as evidenced by the media and politicians viciously attacking them without provocation, have no corrupt practices, and have been "exposed" as being exactly what I describe here. Yeah, these two groups are exactly the same...but on different sides So, instead of accepting this reality for what it is: there is no comparison between Acorn and Tea Party people, we have posters here trying explain Acorn's entire culture of corruption away by saying "see there's bad individuals on both sides". This is of course retarded.

Careful: R.I.'s "punishment" will be to set all of you to 'ignore'.

As a guy who has dealt with endless "methodologies" I can say this with certainty, and certainty with no absurdity : All Methodology is fallible. Anyone trying to tell you otherwise is either selling something, naive, stupid or ignorant, take your pick. Given that, throwing around the Scientific Method proves nothing. It is quite possible, hell, likely, that the Scientific Method itself will need a major overhaul to understand things like extra dimensions, as in: What if an extra dimension's existence is atomic, thereby making it impossible to ever reproduce the data from the single experiment that proves its existence, or modifies/creates it? Does that mean it doesn't exist? If we use the current scientific method as defined, the answer can only be NO, and, we have to "scientifically" not believe our own eyes. If we need to modify the Scientific Method just to deal with extra dimensions, think about what we would have to do to it to prove the existence of God....

"There's no reply at all, no reply at all."

Seriously....is the Obama Administration TRYING to do something stupid every single week? I understand all the talking points, so spare me, this post is not about that. What I know is, given the last time they tried a terrorist in a civilian court it took 4 years and cost big $ and was a media circus. Hmmm...what's going to be happening around 3 years from now? Oh, that's right, Obama is going to be trying to get elected again. Given the fact that lawyers are lawyers , and the reality that a "very cautious and sensitive" approach is sure to be taken by this attorney general, this trial will be front and center, riling up the entire Republican Party, not just the far-right, as well as many rational Democrats. Forget "I voted for it before I voted against it", this is the ultimate "gift that keeps on giving" that will be hot and heavy right around primary time. How stupid are these people? They spend all of their time running a campaign, instead of governing, yet they swing and miss on the very biggest campaign issue that is most likely to kill them when it's time to run again? Never mind the fact that they are gonna get killed on this issue every single week between then and now, as each retarded ruling, from the liberal-biased NYC judges they are sure to hand pick, comes out. The INSTANT the terrorists' lawyer start talking about waterboarding, the entire debate becomes "How dare they talk about that, instead of what these men did, in NYC of all places?" Worst of all, this trial will trickle out data, just like the Acorn thing, meaning they won't be able to spin it away, since there will always be something new to talk about, allowing old issues to be endlessly recycled as well. This is why I am saying: who cares about the talking points? This is just plain stupid. Why purposely create the arena where you are clearly going to get beat up every week? This decision just gave Hannity, Beck, Limbaugh, even O'Reilly, the late night comedians, the entire internet, and worst of all, this board, something to ridicule the Obama administration about for the next 3 years. Where's Dellapelle_John? He needs to remind me why being a liberal makes you smart again.

3.5 ....couldn't resist...Still laughing at ALL the protagonists of that one.

I am in business. In fact I partially own one. I don't remember creating a scam strategy, or getting the government to either run, or be complicit in, my racket for me this week. In business school, I don't remember learning that instead of using my skills and my ability to properly recruit, retain and manage the skills of others towards creating competitive products/services, I should simply pay off a bunch of politicians to create a phony "industry". I, and I assume many others here, lived the .com nonsense. This global warming crap has a very good chance right now of bubbling, and bursting just the same, and for the same reasons: when we let investment bankers become board members, and those "we have money, therefore we are smart" boards put marketing people, instead of people that actually know the business, in charge of companies.....assclown behavior always ensues. This entire Global WarmingTM thing is simply the .coms all over again, and it will have the same results: 1. Scamming investors 2. Real innovators in "green techs" whose real, well built/conceived products/services will be crowed out or lost in the noise 3. Money being diverted towards the business plans that support a political agenda, or are the most "marketing hype friendly", instead of those that have the most merit and have the highest chance of long term profitability.

....and what is equally obvious? Your obfuscation. If we all agree that everyone is a hypocrite, then no one can ever be held accountable for their wrongheaded views. Therefore, nobody ever truly makes mistakes....thereby removing all opportunity to LEARN from those mistakes. That seems strange coming from a retired navy guy. Actually, it seems diametrically opposed to what armed service teaches us. And, since you apparently want to remove all accountability, and especially from politicians/those espousing political views, apparently you are in favor of creating an environment where the only thing that matters is political expediency. Apparently you are a big LBJ fan, because he tried to run everything based on opinion polls, rather than actually standing for something. Or...is it really: you only want to focus on the mistakes made by people not on your "team" and ignore the ones your "team" makes, as was initially suggested? It's fine if you do, plenty of people on both sides want to do that, fairly or unfairly. What's not fine is your sanctimonious attempt at preaching "Amercian Values" to us with your TR quote, but then not being willing to acknowledge those same values, or rationalizing them, when they are applied by others. They were absolute when you applied them to Bush. But now, they are relative when they are applied to Obama? Horsecrap.

Alright, enough already....I got through page 11 and rapidly grew bored with the lame points on both sides. The FACT that this guy IDENTIFIED HIMSELF as a SoA(Soldier of Allah) on HIS business card means not only is he an extremist, but that he has every intention of ensuring that those around him are aware of it. In addition, he has no doubts, and there is no ambiguity about how he identifies himself, leaving no room for "interpretation"(read: spin) by anyone else. He is a Muslim extremist that CHOSE to take the next step and turn Muslim terrorist, and this is the "right bauer". The FACT that this was clearly a planned out attack means all of the psychobabble ends NOW, and is the "left bauer" The FACT that Chris Matthews is required to make points like "it isn't illegal to call Al Queda", and has nowhere else to go to try and prop up the politically correct party line, tells us all we need to know about the leftist agenda. They will literally say anything, no matter how ridiculous, to try to protect their poorly conceived positions from 3-4 years ago regarding the WAR ON TERROR(eat it, bitchazz). How else can we describe this preposterous statement? This is the ace. The rest of you can play around with your farmer's hands and other nonsense. But I have a lay down hand here and it's far past time to stop wasting time with your 9s and 10s.

Sorry, but with the massive audiences that the right wing media has, you had better take them seriously. I watch Fox News and I listen to talk radio. You think its a good idea to write me off as an inbred hick that has no real influence? You think that most of the people on this board aren't just as relevant and influential, if not infinitely more so, than my dopey ass? The fact is, like it or not, your political opponents are as smart, if not smarter than you are. You didn't get issued an "We're the only people who are smart and relevant" card the same day you got your union card. And, the simple fact is whenever I have heard Rush Limbaugh discuss a policy/political strategy issue, and not dopey things like McNabb et al, he usually ends up being very insightful, and very right. The reason I don't listen to Rush religiously is simple: I know it's a put up job and that most of the attack stuff he does is dubious. That doesn't mean that EVERYTHING he says is wrong, no more than it means that EVERYTHING you say is wrong. And again, he has called things like Hillary running for President, YEARS before the left wing media has even considered them. You can't be an idiot, and be that insightful, at the same time.

Since I do this for a living...and just got off a conference call with a major hospital group in the south discussing this very issue....allow me to take a whack. 1. The #1 issue has nothing to do with price. Price is an effect, not a cause. The fundamental issue here is: health care providers cannot tell you what their real cost of doing business is, on a per patient, or per patient profile basis. Instead, they do what's known as financial allocation(top down) a la "if I ordered and used 80% of 2 pallets of milk cartons, I take the number of patients in the house and divide that into the # of used milk = each patient used 1.4 cartons of milk today". Clearly this is not accurate, and is merely a rough example of the fundamental flaw of using this method to determine cost per patient. 2. The #2 issue is: health care provider organizations are doomed to never having real organizational knowledge. Most health care workers, in any discipline, know what they do each day. However, they cannot see how that effects cost, or, how it effects others, or others' costs. Metaphorically, they are doomed therefore to having the organizational memory and knowledge of single cell bacteria. Lots of bacteria grows wherever it can, but not because that was the plan. Instead, each cell is doing what it needs to...and each cell knows how to do it's job, but, not how to do it better, so that all the bacteria uses the resources they consume as efficiently as possible. 3. Insurance companies/health care providers are therefore locked into an eternal struggle over what things should(there's that word again) cost, instead of operating with the data that tells them exactly what things DO/and therefore WILL cost. 4. Health care providers cannot measure the work they do, therefore they have no hope of truly managing it. Worse, if you cannot manage your planned work properly, you are absolutely screwed when it comes to unplanned work. Since an emergency room's business process, as one example, is almost 100% comprised of unplanned work, they have no REAL way to set up an ACCURATE cost model. Yeah, yeah, we can do the business intelligence thing...but that's only as good as the raw data we collect, so spare me. 5. Add in the fact that by and large, health care providers: a. think they are absolved of proper management techniques....because they "save lives", and how dare anyone question their methods? (Hint: questioning your methods '= questioning your motives, or how hard you work, there, you insecure tools) b. due to a, go out of their way to say "we aren't an 'industry', and therefore not subject to the same management performance indicators everybody else is", they have set up no possible way to solve the problems described in 1-4, without having them freak out....therefore any improvement to their business process becomes like handling Maria Carey. 6. Add in all the crap we know that Insurance Companies like to pull....as has been stated here ad nauseum 7. Add in the fact that doctors/CEOs aren't willing to deal with their informatics properly. Largely because they have been sold, and burned, 3-4 times on crappy software that does their regulatory crap, or handles billing and accounting, but doesn't help them with their REAL operations. (Any fool can make appointment scheduling software) 8. Nurses/middle managers/CEOs/Administrators catch hell from all sides, making it near impossible for them to make large, meaningful strides in the improvement of care delivery. For example, the average Director of Nursing lasts 3 years at their job before quitting or being fired. Same thing with Administrators. Other than in IT, what job do you know of that has such high turnover? This turnover has created the famous "nursing shortage", which is not real. In fact there are plenty of trained nurses. However, only so many that are willing to deal with the BS. Many, many nurses leave the profession altogether, or, keep job jumping, hoping to hit it right. This mass turnover costs us billions, yet, NOTHING is being done to fix it. One major consequence of this is that nursing unions have sprung up, that now make it even harder to control cost properly. Another major consequence has been that nurses/admins/CEOs have become extremely jaded, and resistant to anything that even has the slightest risk, no matter it's potential reward. After getting burned so many times, wouldn't you be? 9. Patients think "health care is free, cause my boss/the government pays for most of it, so it's OK if I treat my body like an amusement park". Unlike buying auto insurance, there is no consequence cost to the patient for poor behavior. The insurance companies are RIGHT when they point this out. 10. Lawyers add no value, as usual, and while they are not Problem #1, they are Catalyst #1 in terms of increasing cost. IF we solved problem #1, then we could tell lawyers to blow it out their asses. Why? Because if I know, down to the second, what is happening in my health care providing facility, and something bad happens, and I immediately take the proper steps to correct it....how the f am I being "negligent"? I'm not. IF you take away the ability to prove negligence, you take away the ability for lawyers to sue, and then you take away about 80% of the lawsuits. Forget the legal minutia. Good business process tracking and thoughtful and immediate intervention OWNS all lawyers and their menagerie of BS. Take 1-10 and a few other things, and this is why costs keep going up. It's really that simple. We can character assassinate each group all we want, but the fact is EVERYONE is to blame in some form or another. Anybody who says otherwise, is usually partial to one side or the other. It is my job to see problems OBJECTIVELY, and this is what I see right now. As always, there's much more to learn. But, if we can get after 1-10, we will be well on our way to controlling health care cost.

The biggest dope is this Ed guy. I try my best to watch MSNBC on occasion just to see what they are talking about and how it compares to Fox, CNN, etc. Rarely do I even turn a channel because I simply can't deal with inane babble, but I have yet to get through one of his shows. Remember that kid in high school, who never had a comeback, and the ones he did were from the 50's(take a long walk off a short peer)? The kid who was simply trying so hard to be witty and just couldn't deliver? Yeah, Ed = that guy. The best part about people like this is that their attempts at sarcastic criticism fail so broadly, they make themselves the joke, yet they are oblivious. I guess I just have too much empathy to sit there and watch a guy crush himself for the entire hour.

I don't see it as Crazy and the Fun bunch pushing the administration around as much as I do: Rahm Emmanuel and his friend from Chicago letting them take all the heat for their ridiculousness, and then coming in later to "save the day". This way, they can appear to be leading on "compromising and working together" and can show that they are in fact practicing "new politics". Like most liberal plans however, this one has backfired, because they didn't think it through and account for all the possible consequences/outcomes. The chief being that: not taking the lead on each issue they campaigned on has made them look weak, and, has made them look like they can't control an obvious nutbag in Pelosi, therefore, they look even weaker. This weakness has not been lost on Pelosi, or her "buddy" Harry Reid, and now they get to be even more nuts. Now that Pleosi/Reid have been unintentionally "empowered", the administration can't do anything to stop them insisting on things like a public option, and hauling their asses down with them. Reid/Pelosi are now the epitome of an albatross hanging around Obama's neck. But honestly, what did you expect? Did you really expect Obama, now clearly defined as an opportunist, to lead, take all the heat, and drive his agenda point by point? Sorry if you did, time to get your naivete meter checked before you set your expectations. Opportunists, by definition, don't lead.

More evidence of what happens when we let affected minds be in charge of things. This is the definition of absence of reason. Clearly, Obama thinks he is still on the campaign trail. It seems he wants to go back to those halcyon days when all he had to do was talk a big game to get the adulation of the masses. Too bad things don't work in reverse Barack...you have to get things done, and forcing a far-left agenda down our throats is only gonna get you fired. And yeah, I get that it's probably more about bucking up the troops than anything else. Telling people that are already affected what they want to hear is fine...but it doesn't help with the people whose minds aren't affected. Those independent people are the reason he got elected, and they are the reason he will get un-elected as well. They are also the reason that, if he keeps this nonsense up, he will get most of his party un-elected in 2010. Unless, this is some sort of attempt at setting the lowest expectations possible...so...that when he starts to pursue a centrist agenda...he can gain the same "comeback" status, and momentum, that Clinton was able to ride into re-election. Hell of a risk to take...and it doesn't work unless he adopts Clinton's centrist agenda.

I'm glad this happened. Of all people, Rush Limbaugh should be making damn sure that he checks up on whatever he reads on the internet, since, he was just the victim of the exact same phony charges, "quotes", and tactics. Hopefully the media in general, MSM, talk radio, etc., all get their act together and stop being lazy. Because I think laziness has as much to do with this than an agenda does. I hope this need to get the story first, without willingness to put the proper work in, continues to burn the media as often as possible.

Bingo. This country is currently being run by near-Communists, after being run by people who think anti-abortion and anti-gay marriage issues are far more important than getting rid of corruption and fixing the failing entitlement programs(um, 75% of the Federal Budget we still can't afford). I blame all of us. We need to remember what made this country great, and what got us away from that and got us here. Going forward, we need to insist upon keeping the "wingers" from being in charge of anything. I applaud the Blue Dog Dems for realizing that supporting the far-left agenda is a bad thing for the country(and of course its a bad thing for them personally, come election time). They are a good example for moderate Republicans to follow, when they take over in 2010(that's rapidly becoming an inevitable outcome). The most success we have had in the recent past, 1994-2000, was when we had a, newly, moderate Democratic President in Clinton, with a moderate, economics first, Republican Congress led by Gingrich. The faster we get back to something like that, the faster the BS ends. The very first thing that needs to happen, regardless of who is in control of Congress, is that neither side votes for a "winger" for Speaker of the House/Senate Majority leader. I think you could get 80% of the American people to agree to that immediately. It could be immediately accomplished with a simple pledge that was posed to ALL political candidates. We vote against anybody who doesn't sign or live up to it. Done.

Brought to you by: "The most ethical Congress...Ever!"