OCinBuffalo

It would help if I could get that without getting ripped off for it. I refuse to sign up for what amounts to ESPN Better. There's no way that some objective, prepared tool doesn't exist for GMs to rapidly evaluate draft day trades. If for no other reason than to cut through the crap and stay on the critical decision points. Every NFL team, except the Redskins, plans and prepares for 12 hours a day, for months, in the off-season. Coaches spend hours and hours just making sure they get 5 minutes of practice right. But, only on draft day, we are supposed to believe that everybody just wings it? No way in hell. Whatever they use may not be in the exact form of this chart, but, there's no way in hell they just do it based on whatever comes to mind....unless it's the Redskins. Nobody in the war room is going to remember every player on the board and how a trade might affect who they get where. There has to be some sort of pre-planned thingamabob, or excel spreadsheet, or even a real software program, that assists with this. I have....the Redskins....which is the real world application of your theory here.....and is therefore, hysterical. Why do I need to go through a logical proof....when all I need say is "The Redskins"? I bet you think the pattern of their behavior over the last 10 years....should be ignored....because you think RG3 is a good player. And you want to talk in terms of logic? How about statistics? As in: what % of the Redskins moves....just at the QB position...over the last 10 years...have worked, or weren't horribly conceived and executed? Logic? 1. You have now confused me with another poster. 2. Nothing I have said here has been refuted by anyone, and that status will not change, because it is indeed based on unassailable logic, and given your skills on display here, even if it wasn't, it's doubtful you could do anything with it. 3. Time for you to go back and re-read the thread. Reading comprehension is important.

I ask for objectivity, and evidence of what GM no longer uses draft charts to evaluate draft trades, especially during their 15 minutes on the clock.... ....and you give us....the F'ing Redskins. Thanks for making my point for me. And, then you proceed to do it again. If picks have more value...why is a draft chart...less useful...to the point of being meaningless?

Nah. We didn't pass on Marino, Sapp....the list is too long. The comparison is there...but the magnitude of their blunders makes it almost irrelevant. Actually, for a few seasons, I went to that game each time. Never had much of a problem. Saw some guy try to throw something at the girl I was with, miss, and hit the wife of a NYC cop...and get landsharked by the cop. That was about the biggest problem I had. Nowhere near as bad as other away games I have been to. Philly Pre-season game remains far and away the worst I have seen. One thing you can usually count on here? Frenkle reinforcing your point for you, completely unintentionally. According to Frenkle, who is against zealots, but not a zealot himself : Tebow works hard at being genuine, but he really isn't....and Frenkle knows this because....nobody is perfect? And, since Frenkle knows this...that makes Tebow a phony? Yeah, this post is not a reflection of Frenkle, and speaking of perfect, a perfect example of Tebow being a mirror that reflects the insecurities, or affirms the zealotry, Christian or anti-Christian, of the observer, at all. Nice work Frenkle, couldn't have said it better myself. What do I have to do with this? Nothing. More insecurities. Frenkle says he doesn't care, but at the same time says this makes him sick to the point that he feels justified in questioning the motives and fandom of his fellow fans. The other thing you can usually count on Frenkle for? Contradicting himself within his own post. Since when is it not possible to be humble, modest, and genuine, but also have a big mansion, at the same time? How many people with big mansions...do you actually know personally? How many times have you been to their mansions? Or better, how many times do you wish you had? The difference is...I've been to plenty of mansions, and I have news for you: you are just as likely to find the same distribution of good guys and bad at them....as you will at some dive bar in South Buffalo. I've been to both. Have you?

We already have that....it's called Orchard Fun Park! Rides: The Distiller! See how well your reflexes, and intestines, hold up after getting up at 4 am, commencing the boozing at 7am, trying to keep that rolling through the 2:30-4:30 no booze zone, and then can you pick it right back up again at the Big Tree? Mr. Toad's Spooky Silly Ride! Can you keep your self control, and stay in the car, when you know that either the driver is drunk, or, it's your sister's assclown boyfriend, who says he "knows a shortcut"? The Gemini! Sometimes it's you driving when you've had too much, sometimes you are driving dead sober because you have an important work thing tomorrow. In the first case, can you avoid the people, cops, dogs, bikes, and mailboxes, especially with Distiller Reflexes and Dick Jauron-induced rage? In the second, can you avoid the first case people, and not scare everyone in the car by screaming at the drunks too much....and avoid the 2 hours later tirade due to Dick Jauron-induced rage? Can you avoid the alluring hypocrisy? Games: The Zipper Ripper! Can you get 3 layers off and do your #2 business generated by The Distiller, before your rear end freezes to the seat, through the toilet paper? Can you get those 3 layers back on before Mr. Happy suffers from permanent shrinkage, or becomes completely useless for the rest of the day(not that The Distiller doesn't make that a distinct possibility anyway)? Smoker's Hide and Seek! Can you light up and smoke at least half that cigarette before they find you? Power Outage Pee Dodge! Can you hit that pitch black bathroom and emerge with only a slight splash on your elbow, or, will you end up with a pee stain from you ass to your ankles, or, puddles in your sneakers? Opposing Female Fan Popcorn Toss! It's a mixed doubles game. The female aspect: How many pieces of popcorn can you toss into her hair and have them stick? The record AFAIK is 7, (handicapped for female Jet fans to 10), but be warned: this game can have an Ultimate Fighting Phase 2, which is the male aspect of the game. Opposing Fan Blackjack! Can you insult/harass/joke with an opposing fan enough to own them, and stay, or do you go for that one last hit, risking busting, and turning them into Frank the Tank? Shows: Beer Goggle Deal or No Deal! Should you stick with that mildly hot, mildly drunk one, or, should you go for the really hot, really drunk one and try to get her back to the hotel? But beware! You could end up spending the second half helping her puke/seeing her to the ambulance, only to find out tomorrow from your friends that she was a 5! Ralph Wilson Jackass! Will that drunk guy/girl bounce 3 times down the stairs or 2? Will s/he end up landing on her feet, or with a serious head injury? Who wants to be a hypothermia victim? Yes, that girl you saw in the parking lot with no headgear will be going out on a gurney...the only question is when? Over/under game. Tailgate Idol! Who is going to be the next big tailgate talent? Will that guy make the greatest parking lot catch ever....but land in your chili, and knock over half your bar? Will the other that guy succeed in supposedly firing up the entire section, by screaming obscenities and standing the whole game, starting at the tailgate? Who is the next, #1 "real fan"? I am sure there are more.....

More name calling.....doing nothing....while.... more and more posts above calling this thread what it is. Do you think you are winning, there Charlie Sheen? He specifically says that "In years past, we either didn't like the FA guys, they didn't fit, or they were on the downside of their careers, so we didn't make the moves based on who was available." Approach has nothing to do with it. They weren't gonna throw money at people, just so fans could say "we won in FA", like we did with the O line clowns Dockery etc. Because we are not the idiot Redskins or idiot Jets, we didn't have to make this mistake over and over and not learn from it. This is based on who was available and they kind of players they are, situation they were in. The Ralph is Cheap mantra is silly, and always has been....another thing Buddy specifically said in the Williams press conference.

Some emoticons are reserved for only the experienced, and elite, posters here.

Yeah? What has replaced it? Which GM said that? Once in a while I see this stated here and elsewhere, but I never see who said it, why, when, where, and what it's being replaced with as the standard tool for evaluating drafts. Instead, this random statement seems to exist only so that unrealistic Madden-like trade up/down scenarios can escape being held to a standard, and therefore escape being ridiculed. Without the draft chart....the "we could have traded up/down" clowns get to posit whatever ridiculous trade they want, claim it was there, based on some random tweet/rumor, and then we get to hear how they are smart, and the FO is dumb, and we missed out on a trade we should have made, because we didn't submit to their "genius". It'd be awfully convenient for these people if the draft chart was old and meant nothing. But without any support for this, all this sounds like is people trying to get out of having to defend their Madden-based, dopey trade scenarios. I refuse to believe that there is no objective tool for being able to quickly evaluate a trade, during the draft itself. 15 minutes and 3-4 teams calling with offers...is not the time to be winging it. I also refuse to believe that all trades are evaluated subjectively, "cause the GM can just do it". None of that makes any sense whatsoever. Now given that....what do you know about the Draft Chart going away?

Hey, I'm just going off what the fans of each team are saying, collectively, on their boards. They act like Vollmer doesn't exist.

Link....from a real reporter....talking to a real source....get it, clowns? Boy, lining up against Williams/Anderson doesn't look like such a good idea after all, does it? In all seriousness, I doubt we have anything to do with it. Pats fans seem to think they will move Solder to LT, and have the new TE they signed move to RT. Now that TE signing, for O line starter $, makes a hell of a lot more sense....provided he can do that job. And, there's the draft and the extra 2nd/3rd/4th picks BB will get from trading down again. In all cases, having 2 guys moving to new positions....is interesting to say the least. At best, it's and marcia is going to be high/lowed when our DEs meet in the middle. But, we've seen that Belechik seems to be even better at coaching OL into starters, than DL...so who knows? Overall Grade(without Light): B, and that's only because I have a high opinion of Solder and Belechik's coaching. Not an A because of relying on BB to draft the right guy, given his recent performance, and, relying on a position change on both sides. In keeping with this idea... Miami: LT Jake Long. Yeah, that sucks. RT Marc Columbo? Whatever....he's a consensus turd. "Might be the worst starting O lineman in the NFL" Remember when that was our problem? Therefore, a lot of Miami fan draftniks have THEM taking Riley Reiff ahead of us at #8. Reiff is a projected 1st round stater at RT. So, they may solve this problem this way. Either way, I like Anderson's chances against a turd or a rookie. However, we really can't do this without considering the QB...and since we don't know who that is, and we haven't known for going on 6 years now. Overall Grade(with Riley Reiff): B-, and that's only because of Jake Long. Long is good, and Reiff probably would be, but if the QB is holding the ball/has happy feet/runs into pressure/can't step up in the pocket/has WRs that hate him, they can't protect forever and perhaps not at all. Jets: LT D'Brickashaw Ferguson. That also sucks. RT Wayne Hunter. Interestingly....another consensus turd. 8.5 sacks allowed and 11 penalties. Hence, they are also looking for a guy via the draft. But, again, according to Jet fan draftnik stuff I could find, they aren't addressing this until the later rounds because they need weapons for Sanchez more. Personally, I think Sanchez is way over-rated. However, the idea here is to be objective, so, if we assume last year was an outlier.... Overall Grade(with...whoever): C+, D'Brick can't play both T positions, the QB is ok, but leaving a hole on one of the edges for the later rounds, when you know the guy you have there now is a penalty generating....cone? No. Well, the Jets appear to be doing everything they can(TEBOW) to pass the ball no more than 10 times a game anyhow so this may not even matter. In any event, leaving that hole there, in our division, is not a good plan. Who knows? Maybe they hit on a 4th rounder? But for now, that's the grade they get. Thoughts?

Yes, and how many fish at the table completely underplay that hand, and only end up with 20% of what they could have got, sitting back with their "poker face" because they have 0 skill? When you are playing against "lucky" guys that keep getting nut hands like this, the only thing that keeps you from losing to them is....skill. Sure the hand is the hand, but what you do with it is way more important. And even more important: can you keep doing it? As you may know, one hand rarely means a lot in poker, same as one play in football, but, there are certain hands/certain plays that are huge. Being able to consistently capitalize on opportunity when it presents itself, and to consistently make the big play when it's available....that's skill. The key is the consistency, not the degree/number of opportunities. And why? Because eventually the other players take notice. You keep outplaying them/getting INTs, and they remember. Do it consistently, and you are in their head. Doesn't matter how the opportunities occurred....people will only remember seeing the back of Byrd's jersey running the other way.

Forget Tebow Mania. That's for turds. Support Tebow Chaos. That's for Bills fans.

Really? I have been a Bills fan for 25 years, and I have never had a reason to hate the Jets. I have had plenty of reasons to laugh at the Jets....consider: Joe Namath and Suzy Kolber...nope, no hate there. Lots of reasons to laugh. Rich Kotite. Enough said. But no reason to hate.

They did try something....they signed Drew Stanton. And promised him.... :lol: that they were not going to re-sign the two guys they had, or any other QB, which is why he signed there. Not more than 2 weeks ago. See? CHAOS! Tebow is the CHAOS CHAMPION!

Do you typically contradict yourself in the same sentence? How does (oh good I get to actually write this instead of thinking it...hilarity) sitting Sanchez....with a $14 mil WR on the team...and replacing him with a guy who throws 8 passes a game....after a 3 game skid....make the Jets....bettter? :lol: Not saying it won't happen. In fact, this is the first thing I thought when I heard this. But in what possible way...does this make the team...not the Tebow...better? It's pure chaos. In a city of loud mouths, hell in a state of loud mouths, on a team of loudmouths, with a loud mouth coach and an attention whore FO.... all rushing out to the press to say whatever they think about the move? CHAOS!!! And you think....this makes them....better?

But do you see Frenkle....without Tebow making the zealots panties wet.....and the anti-zealot zealots panties bunch up and twist..... ....the circus would only have one ring with a dog catching frisbees. Tebow is a mirror. What people see when they look at him...is a reflection of them....not him. He's merely a well-adjusted kid who is firm in his beliefs yet humble. He takes what he does and believes very seriously, but does not take himself too seriously. Why that, and kneeling for longer than most, makes anyone uncomfortable in any way, well, frankly Frenkle? I think we both know the root cause of that = their own insecurities/weaknesses.

I don't know about this....being in the right place at the right time, as a Safety, has a lot more to do with skill and preparation than it does luck. Consider, on any typical play, a safety could realistically end up anywhere within 1500 square yards, and even more if it's a deep pass. Thus, the right place is a very small area in that that range, and the right time is a very small vector as well. But if we don't want to look at in terms of physical reality...and base in anecdotal evidence, then, how often have we seen FS on other teams drop these kind of balls? More often than not. Gary Player said..."the more I practice, the luckier I get". If we apply that to football: The more often we scheme to put Byrd in the right place, the luckier he will get as well. 4-3 D should allow him to go back to running free more often....and we should see his luck...improve.

I love when I am right, tell people the truth, and they call me arrogant for it. It's the last defense of the wrong, and it's typically a good indicator that I am hitting it squarely. I have news. No amount of calling me names negates the reality, or the logic in my sig, that now confronts you. You are still struggling with that logic. This is not about one possible scenario or another....did you also call Tebow to the Jets? Well, why not? That was possible, wasn't it? No. This is about me attempting to prevent dolts from reading and posting every single unfounded rumor/purposely planted rumor, basing an entire scenario on nothing but that, setting expectations for the FO based on that scenario, and then crying in 3 newly created threads per week, or per day, that "the Bills could have traded up for Kalil".

I say Boomer and Carton this morning....hysterical! Their interview of the Jets GM was the single biggest beating I have heard on the radio. They didn't even try to be respectful. Well Boomer tried...until he brought up the Jets saying they "passed on Peyton Manning" last week :woot:! I am tempted to watch Mike Francesa on Yes this afternoon, (Yeah, I'm getting work done...shut it), just for the lulz! As Bills fans, there's nothing we could ever do/say/wish on a division rival that trumps this. Yeah, Ricky Williams quitting for dope chaos, yeah, Bryan Cox spitting chaos, yeah, Pats* get destroyed by the Bears in the SB and suck for the next 10 years...chaos, none of it...none of it...trumps the Chaos Bomb that the Jets have dropped on themselves. All of this....and Tebow isn't even in NYC yet. Training camp hasn't started yet. Sanchez hasn't thrown a pick yet. The Jets haven't lost 2 games in a row yet. And most importantly, the WR haven't started bitching yet. This is the equivalent of "I voted for it before I voted against it", in terms of the ultimate gift that keeps on giving.

Hehehehehehe.. Chaos Boooooomb!

Not sure I want Bell given his shenanigans and injuries. Therefore, I say Reach. I know...it's a shock. ...if the trade down offers aren't worth it, or, if they put you in a position where the LT we want may not be there. Absent that risk, we reach, and give the media the finger while we do it. The fact is that, for once, we aren't operating under the assumption that our top 5 picks MUST start. So, we don't have to worry as much about value/pick. In years past we HAD to take the best value pick on the board, regardless of need, because 80% of the roster was a F'ing need. Short of Antoine Winfield and a very few others, most CBs don't last 11 years. As Bill in NYC says, guys like Matt Light do. So...reaching for a CB is not necessarily the same as reaching for OL. It's not a reach if you are fairly sure you are getting another Matt Light. You can't be 100% sure, but if it's over 70%, I think you reach. Why? Nobody is gonna remember McShay/Kiper calling it a reach....11 friggin years from now. And, this is coming from the guy who has historically been for BPA no matter what, and is historically against trading down/up. This year is different. Mario Williams/Re-signing Steve Johnson/Mike Andrews forces this to be a different year. Above all, I am for reason. Reaching seems to be the most reasonable thing to do if all our other options are exhausted. I do NOT want to trade up for Kalil, because for all we know the guy we take with #2 could be Matt Light as well.

I am for re-signing Bell.... ....but I absolutely against using the draft for toys. We did that with Roscoe Parrish, Kyle Everett, etc.....although I am still a fan of the Spiller pick. Drafting solidly now, is how we avoid what we had to do from 2005-2010....which is hoping we can draft 5 starters from our top 5 picks. I'd like to get back to "normal" where your draft picks have a chance to be rookies, not starters, learn the game, routine etc. If we lose Bell, then we have think Hairston is the stater, and we're back on the bad cycle. And, now, who is the back up OT? The roster says we have 2. That's not good. In fact, rather than looking for toys, if we don't sign Bell, don't we have to consider drafting a T 2 times in the first 3 rounds?

Of course this thread is right....but the timing is wrong. Let us have our day/weekend. This thread is for next week.

Well, hasn't it been so far? We can only base what we "know" on what we....know. Again, you are missing the fundamental point I am making. Everything is possible. But, we need to be wiser and start considering the source....of the source. How do you think the "inside" information is procured? It is always the cab driver? Or, is it more often than not a GM, or one of his employees, purposely releasing info, because they know that a wanna-be Adam Schefter is looking to make a name for themselves? Is this concept really that hard to understand? I don't want to tell anybody they can't post about trades....but back it up with reason, and something besides a F'ing tweet from a "reporter" nobody knows.

Great point. I can't see how it would hurt. And drilling every day against a guy who is good has to make you better. Training camp should be a B word for the O line...which is what I want. We'll see how it pays off in pre-season games.

Apples and oranges politically. Nobody has an emotional or nostalgic or psychological or historical commitment to Obamacare. On the other hand "Don't touch my Medicare...." ...as Grandma goes over the cliff. Moving away from single payer is always a step in the right direction, regardless of the program, but none of this is the answer and here's why: Providers are told their revenue by payers, with Medicare leading the way, and said reimbursement is calculated the most absurd way possible. In what other business does the customer set the price? Worse, this has nothing in common with how the business of providing care actually works. It's based on ludicrous abstraction, created by amateurs trying to do my job, and FAILing. Which payer...is irrelevant. Observing the current status of the patient/resident, and comparing that to their dx/care plan is patently stupid. Setting uniform pricing by dx/procedure, when the care process has 0 chance of being standard is also patently stupid. Adjusting for COL, and "complexity" is laughable = further distorting a distortion. Why? Because we have literally an infinite # of ways to arrive at that patient status, and it's only relevant for today, or for the time it takes to make the observation! And, we could have performed that procedure a boatload of ways involving a huge variance of costs and quality. Therefore, these are never truly measurable pieces of data. To base entire reimbursement tools/schedules on this....merely compounds the error exponentially. And, how are revenue adjustments made? Based on performance, or based on yet more top-down distorted abstraction? Or worse, politically infused, macro distorted abstraction? We aren't making jets, or processing insurance claims, so why are we using their BPM/workflow/BI methods by focusing on their easily defined output? Yeah, for our purposes focusing on the patient outcome...is wrong . Sorry. The patient outcome is nearly impossible to define. The unit of work to which cost is PROPERLY associated in this instance is: the service, not the patient, because services defined with proper granularity are the ONLY consistent vehicles to which we assign cost with an acceptable degree of accuracy. The patient's status, or the fact that a procedure was done, complex or not, literally tells us nothing about the quality/cost of the service provided. If somebody came in with 5 bedsores, and now they have 1, but dipschit surveyor shows up, and ding! deficiency, that tells us nothing about the good work, cost efficient or not, that was done to treat the other 4. OTOH, if the lady next door has one, because of bad care, we won't know what that cost either, and we also don't know how the F we got here, because we aren't tracking what we did in any manner that could be called consistent, we are only looking at the patient. SO, how does health care calculate cost? It doesn't. Not properly anyway. Yet, calculating cost is how prices are set everywhere else in the world. Instead we do it assbackward. We are provided revenue, and then costs are adjusted to that. Nobody cares about cost, because regardless of what the cost is, you, the nurses, docs, unions, insurance companies, everybody, already knows the price that will be paid. And, then we are somehow dumbfounded by costs continuing to rise? How the F do we propose to contain costs....if we don't have the first friggin clue what the REAL (not financial allocation) cost of doing business is? Until we do, nothing will be solved, we will get to see even more "Sue the nursing home" lawyer commercials, and frankly vouchers or not, will have little effect without a financial incentive. We can only achieve that incentive if we know what things cost.