MattM

Tim, as you can see from our marathon thread below on the Pats and cheating, which went for 12 pages and counting, many folks a year later haven't forgiven or forgotten Spygate. If you're still reading, what say you to an article on fans of other teams' perception of the Pats and Spygate, etc. a year later? For ex., giving some of the folks here who think they cheated more than has been let on a voice in the mainstream media. Perception may not be reality, but sometimes perception alone (whether it be correct or not) can be the story. I suspect (in fact, I know, since I did it myself last year and saw a thread on a Steelers board just yesterday that brought this up as well) that if you poll fans of other teams you'll find that the folks here writing in the Pats thread are not the only ones who smell something rotten in Denmark when it comes to Spygate and New England more generally. I'd be curious whether ESPN (and the League) would take kindly to opening that back up, or whether that's something they just want the lid to stay on as tightly as possible.....

I was reading a thread/story (quoted on a Pats board, no less) earlier today from a Steelers board/site and in a piece on the 2004 AFCCG against the Pats* there were still a pretty large number of Steeler fans there who called you dirty cheaters. I suspect that's the reaction you get any time you mention the Pats anywhere else in the League. Wear that with pride, after all, you've earned it--and if your fantasy that Goodell and Kraft's plan to make this all go away worked on all NFL fans makes you sleep any better at night, then I won't burst your dream bubble. Fact is, however, that mention your team just about anywhere else in the League and "Cheater" is the first thing you'll hear (well, maybe "dirty cheater"). PS My father's been a janitor (and I would wager is twice the man you are), but I'll compare my educational credentials against yours any day of the week, genius--I was going to grad school in Boston when I was there and I'll let you figure the rest out on your own.....

Apparently you don't read much (no shock there)--either about football (the bolded portion there is ridiculous, for ex.) or even further up this thread, where many of your arguments have been deboned. I'm done, as all these points have been bludgeoned to death in this and countless other threads here and on many other message boards (folks in the rest of the League you'll find pretty much think you're all cheaters, too)--arguing with you is like having a battle of wits with an unarmed man..... PS For ex., both Athlon Sports and PFW have the Jets 4th and the Dolphins 2nd this coming season. I'm pretty sure the Sporting News did as well, but couldn't find the link.

No, I still have a point. Division games are the most meaningful in terms of playoff chances and seedings and many of those years we were (rightly or wrongly as history turned out) considered likely to be No. 2 in the Division. Kind of like Miami is this year--who's that you're playing after the bye-week again this year? Like I said, it really pays to have friends at League HQ--those same friends who made sure that when you had 4 West Coast games last year you got to play two sets of back to back games...... PS That reminds me--during Spygate Dr. Z at SI.com (God bless him) actually had the gall to wonder aloud in his column, on his own behalf and on behalf of other unnamed NFL sources, whether the League was handling Spygate and the Pats* with kid gloves because Kraft was the team's owner and was a very influential owner in League management circles (not to mention helping Goodell get the job in the first place). He seemed to think that others would not have been so lucky had they been in the Pats* shoes, and, as you'll see from this thread, many others around the League agree with him.

No, I just like to point out when they seem to get different treatment than the rest of the League. Kind of like Wilfork getting fined 4 times in one season, but not suspended, when Roy Williams (S) gets suspended a game for two horse collar tackles during the same season. Or things like the fact that the Pats* got to play the Bills 4 years in a row after their bye week--odds of that happening as a "coincidence"? About 4,000 to 1. BTW, guess who the Pats* play this year after their bye--Miami, their biggest rival in the division this year, much like we'd been (or seen to have been pre-season) much of those prior 4 years. It's good to have friends in the League office apparently.....

How about you selling 19000 season tickets (in a city 5 times the size of Buffalo) in the early 90s? The Bills could go 0-16 and sell twice that. I lived there then and it was hysterical how much an afterthought to the Sox and Celtics the Pats* were.....

That was exactly my point--it's been about 5 years since you've drafted a difference maker on either line (and that was WITH Pioli and Dimitroff, neither of whom are there any more). Laurence Maroney and Chad Jackson are more representative of your recent drafts. Tough to call Meriweather a "rookie" after he's played 18 NFL games, no? By that measure, he'd played more games than Poz had played after his second season in the League, so maybe he was a rookie last year, too, by that measure..... PS Your Kaczur mention reminds me--how is it that Lynch gets a 3 game sitdown for having a gun in his trunk, while good old Nicky boy gets a big NADA for having intent to deal quantities of Oxy? Must have brought Mrs. Wilfork with him for his meeting with Goodell--I hear she helped get Fat Vince off last year from what should have been a multi-game suspension for cheap shots (and would have been had he played for anyone else).....

Mayo's good, but overrated (funny how that happens to a lot of Pats* players, isn't it?) and Meriweather's really nothing special, IMHO. I still laugh every time I see him blow the coverage on that little out to Steve Smith for the key first down on the G-Men's game-winning TD drive in that Super Bowl that I've watched more times than you can count! When was the last time you drafted an O-lineman or D-lineman who started or was worth a crap? Logan Mankins, maybe what, 4 or 5 years ago?

Keep drafting like you have the last few years (Mayo aside) and you'll be having that mental conversation a bit sooner than you and half of "Pats* Nation" think.....

So, who are you going to root for when the Pats* start to suck again and you're hopping off that bandwagon? I'm guessing you'll go back to being a Cowpokes fan myself......

Check the NYT article I linked to numerous posts above, for ex. The Steelers-Pats game was the 2004 season AFC Championship game.....

Welcome to the Board, Pats fan. I say "Pats fan" since you joined yesterday and have a seemingly well-researched/rehearsed line on why it was all no big deal. Although from some of the posts above perhaps you work for the League! On your arguments re: money, wouldn't it make even more economic sense for the owners to downplay any threat to the integrity of the game so as to save "the franchise" (ie., the League)? Once folks start understanding that it's more like the WWF than a major sport, you risk destroying the entire League. None of the owners wants to remotely go there. As you can see above, rightly or wrongly, not many here are likely to be buying what you're selling. I, like others here, suspect that New England did more cheating than just Spygate, but that's just me/us. I won't go rehash all the aruments above, but while we're on the topic of Steelers-Pats games, I seem to recall one playoff game between the two several years ago when the Steelers had about a 70 yard run nullified on a phantom holding call--par for the course for the Pats, so you probably don't remember it, but rest assured that others who follow the League do......

Tim, if you're still reading, what say you to an article on fans of other teams' perception of the Pats and Spygate, etc. a year later? For ex., giving some of the folks here who think they cheated more than has been let on a voice in the mainstream media. I suspect (in fact, I know, since I did it myself last year) that if you poll fans of other teams you'll find that the folks here writing in this thread are not the only ones who smell something rotten in Denmark when it comes to Spygate and New England more generally. I'd be curious whether ESPN (and the League) would take kindly to opening that back up, or whether that's something they just want the lid to stay on as tightly as possible.....

The player was Ross Tucker of SI.com, who's quickly becoming one of my favorite NFL writers (along with NFL Post and its crew) (no offense, Tim)......

What about Martz and Warner--I seem to recall the two of them coming down pretty hard on the Pats over this, or have they all kissed and made up?

Tim, while I know we've had this discussion before, there were other unsubstantiated allegations (and admittedly those may be the key words here) against the Pats, as detailed here: http://www.nytimes.com/2008/05/11/sports/f...ttee&st=cse And elsewhere. The part of this article that I like is the fact that the reporter got other NFL folks to say that the impression was that the Pats were guilty of "living on the edge" (or over it) more than anyone else: "They were the only team, really,” the executive said. “Clearly, they were the team mentioned far more than anybody else.” I recall seeing similar articles on SI.com around the combine that year (King or Z)--people who told them behind closed doors and without attribution for fear of retribution that they thought the Pats were cheaters basically and that they were actually pretty angry about it. Again, you may make something of the fact that folks chose not to speak out publicly, but they may have a legit fear of retribution in the case of a League like the NFL that seemed to want to get everyone in lockstep on an issue affecting the League's perceived integrity. In addition, I also wonder if you ever saw the HBO special on Matt Walsh. In that one they directly quote an unnamed "offensive star" (HBO's words) on those early Pats teams who said, "of course it helped immensely--we knew what was coming". How do you discount that? I watched it three times to make sure that they were directly quoting an actual player and that is what it certainly sounded like to me. To this day, I can't believe that more was not made of that fact and the substance of this player's quote.....

Plus one, Lori--I agree completely. It pains me to admit that I rooted heartily for that first Pats* team. If only I'd known what was to come.....

I was at that game and we all thought Bruce might have literally killed him. Boomer's problem was that he had a rookie LT pressed into duty a bit early who didn't get the snap count on that play right and just stood there while Bruce went after Esiason like Bruce was shot out of a cannon. As Dennis Hopper would say, "Bad things, man, bad things"--those were the days, boy.....

I agree, but based on past officiating history in our contests with them I strongly suspect that our definition of "clean" (or that of any reasonable person) will not line up with the officials' definition of "clean" when it comes to Brady on game night. If we are even close to hitting him late it will be 15 and possibly an ejection/suspension/banishment/disembowelment......

And you know the terms of that contract extension he signed? Is it guaranteed, unlike player salaries?

Unfortunately, this sounds like the most likely scenario to me, too.....

RIP--what horrible news.....

90% of the people who post here often could have written an article three times as good as this one about the Bills. Does that site just post open submissions?

From what I understand about HGH, it mainly just makes recovery time quicker in terms of muscle fatigue, which apparently mainly helps older players (a la Rodney "HGH" Harrison)--is there a muscle building benefit to it as well? What other kind of PED's are you talking about--are there others that aren't tested for as well? You may be right, but I'd hate to think that 75% of the League is on something they shouldn't be on--football would be no better than baseball if that's correct.....

I hate to say it, but maybe that's how he came out of relatively nowhere a couple of years ago. Might be mighty tempting to someone on the margins (either of just making the League or, slightly up the food chain, of starting) to start using. Ross Tucker wrote a good column on that temptation a ways back on SI.com. I don't know if I'd call this good news, however, in that even though it takes out an opponent's key player, it's almost like rooting for an injury, which isn't too cool and gives bad karma besides.....