MattM

With a few exceptions, I think most folks here (even those who disagree with each other) play well together in the sandbox

"It was just one team, really, brought before us over and over on suspicion of cheating", unnamed NFL Competition Committee member in 2008 NYT article on the Cheatriots....

So jamming an opposing team's wireless headset is not possible? It's just coincidence that several teams have specifically had this problem at Gillette and nowhere else? In addition, what say you to the reported post-Spygate discovery that the Pats** had an extra frequency above what the League allowed on their headsets? Was that to listen to the radio in between plays? http://nypost.com/2014/10/12/they-are-cheaters-spygate-the-nfl-scandal-that-started-it-all/ Pretty good Spygate summary article from (shudder) the NY Post...,

At least two head coaches made similar claims to the League--Jack Del Rio and Rod Marinelli both complained to the League that their headsets went out at key moments (3rd downs when their offense had crossed midfield) at Gillette. That's been known for years. I keep coming around over and over again to that NYT article from May,2008 in which two members of the NFL Competition Committee told the reporter "It was one team, over and over again, that was brought before us on suspicion of cheating, far more than anyone else"--your New England Patriots** ladies and gentlemen!

Or how about the text where he says that he's going to blow the ball up so big that the only thing going down will be Brady's passer rating? How the heck is there anyone in America (much less newfound Pats* apologists like Mike Florio--he's posted a ton of garbage attempting to exonerate them since this past Saturday, after having previously been more open-minded on the subject) who still believes these obvious liars?

I was just saying this to my wife. I also wonder whether cheating in a sport that so many wager on might also be seen to be criminal fraud. Flutie clammed up pretty quickly on that it sound like, saying it only once on a radio call in show. It was almost like someone talked to him shortly thereafter.

No time to read the entire thread, but even I must admit that some Pats** fans (Pneumonic comes to mind, at least off the Brady topic) come to talk football and make a decent contribution on both their team and general football issues. Heck, I even agree with WEO on occasion on non-Pats** items! There are others, however (Bill Brasky comes to mind), who must come to troll and add little to nothing to the conversation. I'm not a fan of banning opposing fans--Patsfans.com did that a few years back during Spygate and took it to an extreme. It made them look ridiculous.

Isn't the game at Lucas Oil this year? If so, I'd take that bet--the Pats** won't have any home advantage (and whatever advantages (fair or foul) that entails for them). A rusty Brady might just get his clock cleaned there, but time will tell on that (and even when, if ever, he serves his suspension, as they may try to drag it out to a less meaty part of their schedule). I also wonder who is going to play CB for them, as they just about gutted their CB ranks this offseason. Combine that with losing Wilfork and not really adding much in FA or the draft (although they did draft a big plugger for the middle of the D at 32) and it may be an interesting year in Foxboro.

On the water muddying point, please explain to me how the Pats**' balls deflated at over twice the rate of the Colts' balls. All those giving truck to the "bad gauge" argument seem to gloss right over that, including Florio, as best I can tell.

This ain't a criminal trial, so readonable doubt doesn't apply--preponderance of the evidence. Plenty of evidence here to beat all 3.

I'd noticed the same thing on Sirius--the hosts bending over backward to agree with callers' ridiculous (and often just factually wrong without host correction) assertions that Brady and the Pats** were being witch hunted, ignoring all the contrary evidence like, you know, the texts and the fact that a guy with no legit responsibility for the balls was given a needle, not to mention Brady's refusal to cooperate or the fact in the report that no matter how you measure them the Colts' balls didn't deflate anywhere near the level the Pats** balls did. Florio also seems to go out of his way to ignore that last point. Pretty clearly there's one or more PR firms involved spinning wildly.

Last time I checked teams play with at least two and quite often 3 or 4 CBs, so being down 2 (Browner and Dennard had he been sudpended) of your top 3 or 4 CBs for a quarter of the season would be a large impediment.

That's because I don't think it's ever happened. Not surprising as I suspect he sees himself as bigger than the game.

No, he's saying that Florio's newfound explanation doesn't explain why the Colts' balls didn't suffer anywhere near the same drop no matter how they were measured (using either gauge). Pretty simple if you look at the numbers, so i'm kind of surprised Florio "missed" that. Maybe he received a phone call or two or some other unknown inducement to change his tune, because the flaw in his newfound reasoning is pretty basic and apparent when you look at the data on all 14 balls tested.

I actually found a good number of the comments--more than I'd have guessed--to be reality and not "Pneumonic-like" fan boy-based. Makes sense when a guy who's given a needle and whose job has nothing legit to go with the balls calls himself the "deflator" is texting with a buddy about how Brady likes his balls and is angling for (and getting) TB swag for his efforts. What other conclusion can a reasonable person draw! Maybe there's hope in Beantown after, all.

The Rogers comparisons are a bit overblown (slight pun intended), and not for the obvious reasons that others pointed out, but also because I seem to recall him just joking around about it, so not sure his comments were to be taken seriously. On the Dennard vs Dareus piece, I really don't get your comment--the player's skill level shouldn't factor into punishment at all. Dennard got bupkis from the League for pleading out a DUI and violating probation from an earlier incident, all of which got him a 60 day jail term. So pray tell how it will be fair when Marcell (as expected) gets time off for what amounted to a citation with no jail time? If Dareus gets time off while Dennard skated it will be but one more example of how "all animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others" to quote Orwell's "Animal Farm".

I said nothing on your other points because they were ridiculous, particularly the point about the Hughes tomahawk play. Football is a game of emotion and to say that had Hughes stripped a properly inflated ball leading to a Buffalo touchdown it would have had no impact on an otherwise relatively close game doesn't pass the sniff test to any rational person. Glad to finally get an answer on good old Alphonzo. So I guess if Marcell gets any time off at all for his citation level offense you'll be leading the charge about how unfair it is compared to punishment given (or, more accurately, not given) to NE**'s players.

Denial ain't just a river in Egypt, I see. How's that non-existent Dennard suspension working for 'ya? I should elaborate on that last bit. About a year ago WEO and I were discussing Alphonzo Dennard's (a Pats** DB) lack of League suspension for a DUI plea that got him a 60 day sentence as it was also a probation violation. WEO said just wait until the season starts before drawing conclusions about League favoritism. Lo and behold the season came and went without a suspension, probably because to suspend him the first four while Browner was also out on suspension would leave the Cheats-** bereft of corners. Dennard was cut last week--I'm betting his suspension is coming a season late on someone else's nickel.

Which is why delusional Pats** fans telling Brady to fight this in the courts will be sorely disappointed. He won't open himself up to a civil subpoena of those records. He made a calculated decision that stonewalling was better for him than turning them over. Remember from the Hernandez trial that coaches are not supposed to be communicating with players during the offseason so a simple series of texts or emails from BB would put them both in the soup, for ex.

Anyone else think that with multiple cheating scandals each involving multiple personnel it's time to have the NFL install a permanent monitor in the Pats** organization with investigative power to make sure things are done on the up and up? That's what a govt regulator might do with a recidivist corporate violator that can't seem to police itself.

I recently read a story where Larry Csonka found a copy of the Raiders game plan in the Fins locker room before a game and gave it to an assistant coach. Miami went on to lose that game and Csonka later went to Shula and said "How could we lose--we had their game plan?" and Shula said "I threw it out. We don't win that way here." Contrast that to Belicheat and stories of his espionage and you may be able to understand why he holds Belicheat in such low regard.

As I said to my wife a few years back when the camera was panning the New England** sideline, they all look like they'd cut their own grandmother's throat for a few extra dollars. There was just a seriously skeezy look from their assembled staff, the kind that makes your neck hairs stand up. Maybe two of those guys were McNally and Jastremzki, who knows?

First of all, on the Colts point, as Sharp and others have noted and as common sense would dictate, dome teams (like the Colts) fumble at a much lower rate naturally than those teams that play outdoors, particularly outdoors in bad weather. That explains why the Pats** are such outliers--their numbers alone are more comparable to dome teams. He goes into that in detail his analysis. DC Tom and others have poked some holes in his analysis, but personally I think his general point still stands. Maybe we'll find out going forward--like if the Pats**' fumbling stats come back to earth next year. You asked for an example of a specific play and I gave you one--a big one in fact. You're telling me that a huge strip sack play like that back in New England's own end (it was in the second quarter on the Pats**' 23 yard line when the game was 7-0) that might possibly have gone for a TD as bouncing ball strip sacks deep in a backfield often do would have made no difference in a game that was within one score with 5 minutes to play? Give me a break. You have been mightily absent on these Brady threads, but are now here in full-throated defense of your favorite team. I just have to ask--are you on their payroll? Yet another data point in full view this week showing that the cheatingest organization in sports hasn't changed its spots one whit. One of us would have predicted that and one of us predicts that this isn't the last of such scandals for the boys from Foxboro that we'll see. That organization rots from the top on down, as more and more folks are realizing. Hey, now that Dennard got cut last week by the Pats** he might actually get that time off we were talking about last year for his DUI plea that got him a 60 day jail sentence, but no League punishment? Remember that? Only a season or so too late (and, importantly, on someone else's nickel other than Bob Kraft's).

Sounds to me from that article like the Chargers were cleared and the League clarified its position after the fact on a previously non-existent rule there. Not really the same thing.

For the 85th time, that's not what he was asked. He and his lawyers were allowed to collect the requested data--the NFL would never even see the phone. This happens all the time, every day in litigations and investigations of every kind. His lawyers have a duty to keep it confidential. They breach that, they get disbarred and get massively sued. Full stop.