folz

Did you even read my post? He was obviously calling a false start not illegal formation. It’s the only thing that makes sense when you weigh in everything that was happening.

I get how there is confusion about what happened on this play. First of all, the TV coverage does not show us well what happened before the snap on the live play because they are in a close-up of O'Connell until AFTER the ball has already been snapped (i.e., you can't tell who has been set and for how long). Then the second replay is tight on the ball, so again, does not show us anything. The third replay, everyone is set, except for #87, the TE on the left side of the line who is motioning out to the WR to move back. The ball is snapped when #87 is still standing and waving his arm. But, we cannot see the WR in this camera angle. Going back to the live play, you can see the WR maybe hop back a step at the TEs request, but again, the ball has already been snapped. Everyone moved on the snap of the ball except for O'Connell, #87, and the WRs. The other problem is that the NFL's signal for both false start and illegal formation is the same. That is dumb on the NFL's part. Why should two different penalties have the same signal. BUT...the call that was made by the head judge was not illegal formation, it was illegal shift. Illegal shift has a different signal from illegal formation/false start. So, the only way the refs got this right is if the ref at the top of the screen is calling illegal formation and the ref at the bottom of the screen is calling illegal shift and the head judge after listening to both of them believed illegal shift was the more correct call and overruled the ref at the top of the screen. Unfortunately, we can't see from the TV coverage (maybe we can when the All-22 comes out) what the ref at the bottom of the screen is calling. Another element of confusion. BUT...does a side judge immediately run onto the field if the play is still live? Which it would be for illegal formation. The ref at the bottom of the screen (who apparently called the illegal shift) does not run onto the field. He stays on the sideline because to him it is still a live play. If the ref at the top of the screen is calling illegal formation, the play is still live and I don't think he would immediately run towards the middle of the field. Also, you can clearly see him put his whistle to his mouth before the recovery of the football. And he has no vantage point to even see if there was a recovery to blow the play dead at that point. Plus he is looking at the head judge, not the ball. If he thinks it's still a live play, he doesn't put his whistle to his mouth to blow before there is a recovery, and he would be following the ball, not running towards and looking at the head judge. So, I think he was clearly calling a false start penalty on #87 because he is clearly moving before and during the snap. It was also obvious that the Raiders all believed that the ref was calling a false start penalty. The center even motions false start to his coaches on the sideline, saying its ok..false start. Just because the refs reaction time on his whistle may have been slow, does not mean he wasn't calling a pre-snap penalty. He is starting to wave his hands declaring a dead play before the recovery. You don't do that if the ball is still live and unrecovered, And at that point, as soon as that ref calls false start, the play is dead and it doesn't matter what the other ref called. Plus the other refs call came after the ref at the top of the screen, also kind of indicating that they were probably making different calls. One that tends to get blown before a play and one that tends to get called at the snap of the ball. Once a play is ruled dead in the NFL, nothing else matters. Play is dead. You can't undo a dead play. We've seen it hundreds of times---a ref makes a mistake by blowing his whistle even though he shouldn't have and the team would have made a big play. Everyone knows that ref was wrong for blowing that inadvertent whistle, but they never change it because it's only fair to the team that would have had the big play. No, it's just sorry...dead ball. You can't overrule a false start penalty and let the play stand. It's against the rules.

You obviously were not watching any Buffalo Bills football in 2017-2019. (I mean, why would you have unless you were a Bills fan). And I'm a guy that loves stats and I post a lot of stats on this board, but we all know that stats do not tell the full picture. The reason why Tyrod Taylor had fewer INTs and a better completion percentage than Josh the following year was because Tyrod WOULDN'T THROW THE DAMN BALL! He was so afraid of negative plays/INTs that he wouldn't even attempt throws when they were there. I like Tyrod, but that entire season every Bills fan stared at their TVs yelling THROW THE DAMN BALL TYROD! Instead he'd take a sack or take off for a 3-6-yard run on 3rd and 10. As for Josh, yes, he was very raw coming into the league and had very little talent around him his first two years. Yes, the national narrative was that he was still heading to being a bust because of his completion percentage---but it was really because so many football people said he would be a bust before the draft, and things like you can't improve completion percentage, and none of them wanted to be proven wrong because they were so adamant about their positions. But, they weren't actually watching Bills games in 2018-2019 either. Those of us who were actually watching the games (Bills fans) could see how special Josh was pretty quickly. [Some of us were sold on Josh in just the second start of his career as he got a major upset win over a 16.5-point favorite Vikings, hurdling Anthony Barr and scoring 3 TDs with no turnovers in the process. With a 111.2 passer rating btw.] It was absolutely obvious to anyone who actually watched the games that Josh was a way better QB than Tyrod, even though he was still raw and still had a lot to learn. And then 2019 was no question, every Bills fan knew we had our guy even though the stats weren't there yet. Yes, the rest of the country still weren't sold on him. The negative narrative around Josh was in full effect, but we Bills fans already knew what we had. I have never seen another elite QB have to wait so long for any accolades or for the consensus of football people to accept him as elite. Josh has been playing at an elite level (every bit as good as Mahomes) for 5 years now...and only this year (his 7th year in the league), have the naysayers finally quieted down. You have been looking at things from the outside/national perspective regarding Josh, which was wrong...and has been blatantly proven to be wrong over time. And since you are bringing up turnovers (another incorrect narrative---that Josh is a turnover machine). In the last 5 years, Josh Allen has 63 INTs. Patrick Mahomes has 59 INTs (only 4 interceptions separate them, and Josh has played one more game over that span). Josh does have 12 more lost fumbles than Mahomes in the last 5 years, but Josh also has 220 more rushing attempts than Patrick over that span (more attempts = more fumble opportunities). So, Josh has 16 more turnovers than Mahomes over the last 5 years (or 3 turnovers more than Mahomes per season). Not really a big enough amount to call Josh a turnover machine, imo. Also, and even more importantly, Josh has 25 more TDs than Pat over that span. Turnovers equate to 4 points for the opponent on average. So, 16 more turnovers equals -64 points for Josh. BUT, 25 more TDs equals to 175 more points. Subtract 64 from 175 and that means Josh has still outscored Mahomes by 111 points over the last 5 years, despite the turnovers. How's that for some stats? Look, Patrick still has the Super Bowls, and no one can take that away from him. And unless Josh gets a ring or two, Pat will always be seen as the higher-ranked/better QB. But if you can't accept that Josh is, at least, every bit as good as Mahomes, then I assume you can't actually be rational about this topic.

Amari Cooper: Quiet, humble guy Khalil Shakir: Quiet, humble guy Keon Coleman: Although he has a bit of top WR swag, he's still a down-to-Earth, humble kid. Always compliments coaches and teammates in pressers. I've seen him chase down touchdown balls on big plays for teammates, to make sure they can keep it if they want to. More than a willing blocker in the run game, etc. Curtis Samuel: Quiet, humble guy Dalton Kincaid: Quiet, humble guy Mack Hollins: Not so quiet a guy maybe....and not sure anyone is calling him humble, but total team guy, willing to do whatever it takes for his teammates Dawson Knox: Again, maybe not so quiet, but definitely humble...accepts his role, didn't kick up a fuss when they drafted Kincaid, but instead embraced him. James Cook: Quiet guy who just gets his job done Ray Davis: Haven't heard him speak much or know much about his personality yet, but seems to fit right in. Ty Johnson: Another humble, team guy...willing to do whatever is asked just to play the game. Reggie Gilliam, Quinton Morris, Jalen Virgil, Zach Davidson: The same. Josh Allen: Josh is by no means humble on the field. But, for the level of stardom that he has achieved, he is still down-to-Earth, all about the team and playing for his teammates, having fun...keeps his personal life pretty quiet even though the spotlight is on him---and is just an all-around good guy. It's pretty crazy when you think about it. How rare is it to have an NFL offense in this day and age, with the type of money they are making, and yet have no divas, no attitudes, no showboaters, no me-first guys, no jerks, etc. But, I guess, as they say, teams take on the personality of their head coach (and I would include GM in our case too---and maybe the coordinators too this year...but it all stems from McD). This is a fun group to root for and kudos to Sean and Brandon for building the culture we have and bringing in the right guys to fit that culture. One for all, and all for one. Everybody eats. We went from worrying about our WR room to maybe having one of the most complete pass catching groups in the league (including TEs and RBs). I don't know if you'd rank them as one of the best yet, but the combination of talent, differing skill-sets, depth, and attitude might be hard to beat as a whole, top-to-bottom. Here's hoping we can resign Amari and he continues to have fun winning in Buffalo.

I'm not sure about that either. I just posted in another thread how Spags consistently brought 6 and 7 men on every third and long. There were many second and longs where he brought 5. I mean, maybe they have some more exotic stunts or something that we didn't see, but it sure doesn't seem like he was holding back at all. They were bringing the house to Josh pretty consistently. Considering that Josh converted more than not on those downs, maybe they'll actually dial down the pressure if they meet again. But then again, it's Spags. With Josh learning to be patient, take what the defense gives, dink and dunk down the field if necessary, he has become a nightmare to defend. He was already very good against the blitz because of his legs and how he can extend plays (as we saw yesterday), but if you run zero or whatever instead, he can now pick you apart underneath (without making too many mistakes). It's pick your poison for defensive coordinators. Maybe that is what finally gets us over the top. There is no longer a defensive scheme that can frustrate/beat Josh. You have to have the players and perfect execution of whatever defense you're running to beat him.

Yeah, I haven't rewatched the whole game, but have seen the highlights a bunch. Spags was bringing pressure all day. It was pretty much rushing 5 on second and longs and then rushing 6 or 7 on third and longs. Pretty consistently all day. A few other plays where there was an all out blitz: 3rd and 8 in the first quarter, the first down pass to Samuel to the 3 yard line, the Chiefs rushed 6. On Samuel's TD in the 4th quarter, the Chiefs rushed 7---with one peeling off with the RB as he swung out. 3rd and 9 on the last drive (the first down to Shakir, where he got hit in the back), the Chiefs brought 7.

I mean, what is the criteria for these awards anymore. Heard one voter/former player say about MVP, that he indeed knocked Josh last year because Lamar had more wins (even though Josh played better, had better stats/season). So, is MVP now just the QB on the team with the best record? What a dumb way to decide the best or most valuable player. And I don't even think it should be a QB only award. And what is the criteria for Coach of the Year?...it would be nice if we knew what they (the voters) think the award actually means. Is it best team turnaround? 2023 record 2024 (currently) Ravens 13-4 7-4 Lions 12-5 9-1 Bills 11-6 9-2 Steelers 10-7 8-2 Broncos 8-9 6-5 Vikings 7-10 8-2 Comms 4-13 7-4 I'd say the Lions, Bills, Steelers, and Broncos will all probably finish around 2 games better than last year. The Ravens will have a worse record than last year. With the Commanders and Vikings probably having the largest jump in number of wins. Is it the coach who reclaimed a QB? Darnold in Minnesota, Wilson in Pittsburgh. Is it the coach who has a rookie QB playing well? Nix in Denver, Daniels in Washington? If McD gets knocked for having a great QB (Josh's play overshadows coaching job), why isn't it the same for Harbaugh with Jackson? Or really Tomlin with Wilson too. Yes, things were not good for Wilson in Denver, but he's still a Super Bowl winning QB. And even Goff has been a pro bowler and been to the Super Bowl. Not saying they are as good as Josh, but McD shouldn't have an automatic elimination because of Josh. Belichick won the award three times with Tom Brady as his QB. Harbaugh won with Lamar Jackson. Sean Payton won with Drew Brees as his QB. Is it which team is outperforming pre-season expectations? Currently I'd say Minnesota leads here, then Washington, then the Steelers and Bills about even. Is it who had a perceived biggest net loss in good players from the previous season. McD may have led here prior to the Cooper addition, but still up there. Is it who overcame the most adversity? Tough to answer this one without looking at every team's season and injuries, etc. But McD would be in this conversation. Do the voters weigh in all such criteria and others? If so, then I'd eliminate Harbaugh. The Ravens will probably have a worse record than last year, may not win the division, despite having the MVP QB and adding Derrick Henry in the backfield next to Lamar. If I add all of this up, then I'd say the frontrunner should be Kevin O'Connell. He ticks the most boxes. Next tier would be Dan Quinn, Sean Mcdermott, and Sean Payton (depending on which criteria you weigh more heavily), then Quinn (see below) and Tomlin (basically just got better QB play). imo. [That is provided that Minn, Wash, and Denver don't fall off as the season goes---I don't expect the other teams to fall off.] As for Detroit, they were ranked #3 at the start of the season (so they were expected to be very good). And as far as their scoring, they have beat up on some bad teams (the Bills have too---some of the same teams funny enough, just not as bad). Detroit's top scoring games [that leads to the large point differential. They only have one other game over 30 points (a 31-29 win vs. Minnesota)]: vs. Seattle 42 points (Seahawks are 5-5) vs. Dallas 47 points (Cowboys are 3-7) vs. Tenn 52 points (Titans are 2-8) vs. Jax 52 points (Jags are 2-9) Bills have 8 games with 30+ points, Detroit has 5 games with 30+ points. They just had higher scores in those particular games. Common opponents (points scored in wins): Detroit Buffalo Seattle 42 31 Tenn 52 34 Jax 52 47 Arz 20 34

We'll cross that bridge when we get there. Stop worrying about yesterday and tomorrow and enjoy today. Great post Shaw. Made me feel like I was there with you.

I still have a hard time understanding this (like from a psychological perspective). Not that Lamar is a media darling (he is a special player, no doubt), but that he is and has been from the end of his rookie year, and yet Josh is just getting there in year 7 (as far as the media goes). We usually say with Josh that all the people who said he'd be a bust just didn't want to be proven wrong. But, Lamar was doubted just as much as Josh leading into that draft. Heck, many people didn't even think he should be a QB, but rather transfer to another position (WR or whatever). And he was picked, what, 19 spots lower than Josh? Most of the people who were doubting Josh were also doubting Lamar. Now, no question, Lamar's running was dynamic to see when he first got to the league. And Josh was raw. But the big knock on Josh was his completion percentage. Yet Lamar had only a 57% completion percentage in college and a 58% completion percentage his rookie year. Josh was basically considered a bust by most media after year two, while Lamar was winning an MVP (deservedly so in that year, imo). Josh started winning some supporters in year three, but Lamar was already crowned. Yet their stats for their 1st three years in the league were: Josh: 11,269 total yards 92 total TDs 31 INTs Lamar: 9,991 total yards 87 total TDs 18 INTs Yes, Josh was throwing 4 more INTs per season, but are those stats so different for one to be an MVP and the other considered a bust? Is it just because in 2018 (the first year starting for Mahomes, Allen, and Jackson) the Bills were in a total rebuild and purging year (going 6-10), while the Chiefs (riding their previous playoff seasons) made the AFC Championship game with a 12-4 record and the Ravens made the playoffs at 10-6 (losing in the Wild Card round)? Was it just first impressions? Josh playing for a bad team (and being a bit more raw) looked worse initially than the other two who walked into already established and stable winning organizations? But, why would anyone still hold on to that after watching Josh have multiple elite seasons (starting in year three)? To be clear, this isn't an anti-Mahomes or anti-Jackson post. They are both great players and deserve the accolades they get. I'm still just trying to figure out why the media has been so anti-Josh for most of his career, especially when he is such a likable and humble dude. Were people just holding on to the pre-draft BS story about teenage Josh posting something racist? Shouldn't the fact that every teammate (except maybe Diggs at the end) has loved playing with Josh have dispelled that? It's just so hard for me to find a logical reason. No other elite QB in the history of the NFL has had to wait so long for his laurels (including guys that never won a Super Bowl). I mean, QBs are often defined by the big moments (playoff games, coming through in the clutch, etc.) So yes, obviously Mahomes has made and won a bunch of SBs...so his legacy is already set. But Lamar hasn't made a Super Bowl appearance either (like Josh). Lamar and Josh both have one AFC Championship appearance. Lamar is 2-4 in the playoffs and hasn't really played well overall in the playoffs, while Josh is 5-5 in the playoffs and has played every bit as good as Mahomes in the postseason, just not getting the same team results obviously. Who cares about the MVP really, but I just don't get the gulf in perception from the media regarding Allen and Jackson over the last 6-7 years...and maybe I never will.

Shakir's current stats are: 56 recs on 66 targets for 599 yards and 2 TDs. 85% catch rate. 460 YAC (almost 77% of his yards are YAC...that's crazy). 26 first downs. He is currently 10th among WRs for receptions and 18th among WRs for receiving yards (despite being 23rd in number of targets for WRs---the top 12 WRs, for instance, all have between 80-108 targets, compared to Khalil's 66). Shakir is currently 3rd in the league in YAC: 1. Chase 481 yards (on 100 targets), 2. Kamara 466 yards (on 73 targets), and 3. Shakir 460 yards (on 66 targets). Khalil's projected season totals after week 11 are: 1,018 yards from scrimmage, 4 TDs, and 40 first downs.

Allen stock up BIG win against the dreaded Chiefs. Josh had 262 passing yards and 55 rushing yards with 2 TDs and 1 INT. Huge game-sealing drive at the end of the 4th with a "He's Him" 26-yard TD run in front of a national audience. Bills lead the AFC East by 5.5 games. Only have two losses. Currently 2nd seed in AFC playoff race. Jackson not helping his case today: Lamar had 207 passing yards and 46 rushing yards today with 1 TD and 1 INT. Had what could have been a game-tying drive at the end of the game, but they missed the two-point conversion. Steelers now have a 1.5 game lead on the Ravens in the AFC North. Ravens now have 4 losses. Currently 5th seed in AFC playoff race. Lamar still leads in the stat column for QB candidates (but then Josh's stats were better than Lamar's last year and Jackson still got the trophy): Jackson: 3,460 total yards, 27 total TDs, 3 INTs (2nd place division, 7-4 record) Daniels: 3,053 total yards, 14 total TDs, 3 INTs (2nd place division, 7-4 record) Allen: 2,859 total yards, 23 total TDs, 5 INTs (1st place division, 9-2 record) Mahomes: 2,571 total yards, 16 TDs, 11 INTs (1st place division, 9-1 record) Goff: 2,531 total yards, 20 TDs, 9 INTs (1st place division, 9-1 record) Other possible candidate's Sundays: Mahomes: 196 yards 3 TDs 2 INTs (in loss to the Bills) (Despite their record, his stats are not MVP worthy currently and the defense has really helped to carry them) Henry: 65 yards and 1 TD (in loss to Steelers) (Will they give it to a non-QB? Probably not) Barkley: 198 total yards and 2 TDs (Saquon actually has 67 more yards from scrimmage than Henry and is only 47 yards behind him for the rushing title---Henry does have 5 more TDs than Barkley though) (Again, unlikely due to not being a QB). Goff: 433 yards and 4 TDs (in win over JAX---I don't know that Goff is really in the conversation, but performances like this certainly helps his case) Daniels: 219 yards, 1 TD and 1 INT (in loss to Eagles---same with Daniels, probably more in line for OROY rather than MVP)

A lot of current NFL fans have no patience. Back in the day, you didn't think twice about a guy taking two or three years to develop (unless he was a high draft pick---1st/2nd rounder). Curtis Samuel nursing a turf toe is another example...so many fans wrote him off already. Terrell Bernard is another example (wasted draft pick, barely played his rookie year). Shakir is another guy. And the list goes on. Some players just need a little time to develop, heal, acclimate to a new team/QB, or whatever their circumstance is. But most fans don't want to wait for it. If it's not there immediately...move on. We are actually very lucky. We have a staff that is very good in the player development area...sometimes you just have to wait for it. And yeah, Cam has been ballin' out!

As the OP said, Josh's game balls are automatic every week because he's HIM, but he certainly earned it again today. This is at least the third or fourth game this year where it's almost hard to give out game balls because it was such a team win with everyone answering the bell when their number was called. So, my list is a bit long today. Rousseau, Oliver, and Epenesa (specifically, but the whole D-line) were outstanding at both getting pressure, but also not letting Mahomes escape the pocket or be able to step up in the pocket. I know they threw in more blitzes today than usual, but when the guys up front are getting it done, this defense really hums. Ryan Van Demark for stepping in at right tackle (and then left tackle for at least one play). Only gave up one bad pressure (no penalties) from what I recall/saw. Khalil Shakir is a beast and comes thru when you need him. To hold onto that last first down when getting pounded in the back...clutch. Amari Cooper Gutted it out (obviously still injured) and came up with two huge momentum building chunk plays and spectacular/elite catches at that. Curtis Samuel for getting to show people that he wasn't a bad FA acquisition. He was big in the first half. And we needed him with Coleman and Kincaid out and Amari still banged up. Terrell Bernard: 8 tackles, 1 sack, 1 interception, 1 tackle for loss. James Cook. I know he only had 27 yards from scrimmage (rushing yards were a struggle today against a very good run defense), but those two TDs were beautiful. One power and one speed. I could see Brandt nominating Josh and Cook (for his first TD run) for angry runs. But maybe not since Cook got it last week (or the week before) and that would be two Bills...but I think it was worthy. And again, the whole secondary deserves kudos today. Held kelce to 8 yards. Kept Mahomes under 200 yards. And they were all tackling really well today. But yes, special shout out to Cam Lewis. He was all over the field today on both defense and special teams as the gunner. Shout out to Zach Davidson on his first NFL reception. I know it was only for 5 yards, but (remembering training camp), we may actually be 4 deep at TE. (Wish Josh didn't under throw Morris on that one play.) Shout out also to Beane for the DEPTH and toughness our team now has. And coaching was A+ today.

Good post. Yeah, you'd think the Pat Show must be wearing a bit thin on Josh. I'm sure they are still cool with each other and all. But when Mahomes acts like he did at the end of that game last year and the announcers actually praise him for his competitiveness? I mean If Josh had acted the same way after a loss, the media would have been talking about his poor sportsmanship for weeks (if not years). It has to get old. It has to get old losing to the Chiefs in the playoffs (when Josh has played every bit as good as Mahomes in most of the games and been humble in the losses despite how lucky the Chiefs were at times). It has to get old that everyone fawns over or makes excuses for Mahomes even when he's in the wrong or in a slump...and yet Josh has been an elite QB for 5 years now, and is only now getting the praise he deserves (and some still aren't fully on board). Plus the constant criticism he's faced his whole career, while Mahomes has been the golden child from day 1 of starting. Yeah, it's hard for me to believe there isn't a bit of a chip on Josh's shoulder (and McDermott's in regards to Reid). I don't know about Josh, but for me as a Bills fan, Mahomes, Reid, Kelce and the rest of the Chiefs organization lost me way back in the AFC championship game in 2021/2022. I thought how they handled themselves in the last couple of minutes of that game and then with their celebration was pretty classless (so sore winners and sore losers, imo). They weren't just celebrating, happy for themselves, they were rubbing the Bills' noses in it. And I didn't see Josh freak out on the field because the refs allowed the Chiefs DBs to maul our injured receivers that whole game. Let's face it, these two will be compared to each other continuously, just like Brady and Manning in their day. And they are both uber-competitive human beings. In today's climate and with the fraternity of the NFL, they'll say and do the right thing most of the time in the media, but you know there has to be a deep, underground rivalry (not necessarily dislike or disrespect)---I'm sure they'd each rather beat each other than just about any other player/team in the league. You want to prove you're the best vs. the best. And it has to be a bit frustrating when you have been humble in regards to extremely close playoff losses that allowed the other guy to go on to Super Bowls, and then the other guy turns around and acts like a child when losing a regular season game against you. Probably hard not to lose a little respect for that person, imo.

Sorry to bump the old Gameday thread, but didn't think this deserved it's own thread. There is a reactor on Youtube who did two short videos on the back-and-forth between Josh and Dayo in the Colts game. The first video is in regards to Dayo punching Josh in the head and what may have caused it. And the second video shows how Josh responded a little later. No big revelation or anything here, just fun to see a non-Bills fan (he's a Seahawks fan) appreciate Josh---and to really see how frustrating Josh can be to defensive players.

A quick glance at where we are. I too do not put much into the whole MVP thing. Especially after last year. Picking Lamar over Josh was a joke. But this year is a different story, unless you say Jackson/Henry cancel themselves out being on the same team. [If there are two MVPs on one team, then neither is really the most valuable player to their team, because they are of equal value, and obviously help each other out.] Or, as others said, if Baltimore fades a bit and doesn't win the division (ends up a wild card). MVP usually goes to a player on one of the best teams. But, stat-wise at least, Jackson is ahead of Josh this year. Derrick Henry (team record: 7-3, 2nd in AFC North) 1,216 yards from scrimmage with 14 TDs [projected: 2,067 yards from scrimmage and 24 TDs---averaging 122 yards/game at 6.1 yards/clip.] Lamar Jackson (team record: 7-3, 2nd in AFC North) 3,207 yards from scrimmage with 26 TDs and 2 INTs. two game-winning drives. Rating of 123.2. QBR: 76.9. Josh Allen (team record: 8-2, first in AFC East) 2,542 yards from scrimmage with 21 TDs and 4 INTs. two game-winning drives. Rating of 100.2; QBR: 70.3 Patrick Mahomes (team record 9-0, first in AFC West) 2,375 yards from scrimmage with 13 TDs and 9 INTs. four game-winning drives. Rating of 90.3; QBR 67.7 Has a new candidate entered the conversation, though? Heck, I might just give the MVP to Saquon Barkley for that one play against Jacksonville. And his numbers are actually on par with King Henry: Saquon Barkley (team record: 7-2, first in NFC East) 1,149 yards from scrimmage with 8 TDs [projected: 2,170 yards from scrimmage and 15 TDs---averaging 128 yards/game at 5.8 yards/clip.] Of course, per the current odds (odds-makers), there are only QBs in the top 10 (no RBs). So, maybe Henry and Barkley are already out due to position basically. Before last week, the odds were even for Lamar and Josh. But, after Lamar's 14-point (4-TD) comeback last week, he took over first place with the odds-makers (Josh in 2nd, Mahomes in 3rd). So, a big win vs. the Chiefs (if Lamar doesn't also have an outstanding game vs. the Steelers) could definitely help Josh. Two big games this week (Bills/Chiefs; Balt/Pitt). [Josh also does have the idea that the Bills were going to take a step back this year and he had no WRs after Diggs and Davis left going in his favor. Josh had better stats than Lamar last year, so maybe Josh could still win it this year with not as good of stats as Lamar based on perception---and how the next handful of games play out. I mean, Jackson got Henry this year, while Josh was supposedly losing his help/targets. Who knows how these voters think.] And then again, who cares about MVPs at this point. Lamar could win a third MVP and I'd still never trade Josh for him, nor do I think most GMs or coaches would. That pretty much says it all, imo.

I always think this is a poor argument. There are just too many variables for it to be a meaningful determination. For instance, Miami is a way different team with and without Tua. Miami's record is bad because they were without Tua for 4 games (they lost 3 during that stretch to Tenn, Seattle, and Indy). If Tua plays, those are all winnable games and their record could be 5-3 right now instead of 2-6---with 2 of the 3 losses to Buffalo and the other a 1-point loss to the 6-4 Cards). And guess what, both times that Buffalo played Miami Tua was behind center. So, were we playing a 2-6 team or a 4-4/5-3 team? Like I said, too many variables (injuries to their team, injuries to your team, when did you play them---every team has ups and downs in a season, etc.). Right now, you'd look at K.C.'s schedule and think it's much tougher than ours. They've played SF, Ravens, Bengals, Bucs, etc. (But again, the Bucs without Evans and Godwin; SF without CMC, Deebo, Jajuan Jennings, and missing both their kicker Moody and backup kicker Wright...and Mason playing with a shoulder injury). Again, looking at KC. [Using team's current records---which obviously will change over the next two weeks] IF we were to beat K.C (and then they beat Carolina while we are on Bye), when we come back from our bye, it would look like this. Team Record Record of Opponents Opponents Win % Buffalo 9-2 47-56 45.6% Chiefs 10-1 53-54 49.5% When you think 11 games vs. 11 teams who have also played 11 games, we are talking about 121 total games. And then for two teams = 242 games. Does a 4-6 game difference in opponents' record across 242 games really tell us anything even if we don't take into account all of the variables? 6 of 242 is only 2.48% of the games. I could just as easily pick stats to show Buffalo is better than KC: Bills: Total points: 290 Point differential: +97 avg. margin of victory: 15.63 Chiefs: Total points: 219 Point differential: +58 Avg. margin of victory: 6.44 But all stats go out the window when it's head to head because the NFL is a week-to-week league. All you can do is play and beat whoever is on your schedule. And I think we all know what the OP meant with this thread, whether he used the word "rebuild" or "retool." He's pointing out that we are a much better team than a number of posters, fans, and media thought we would be, so he's giving props to the coaches and team. There were definitely people in the off-season calling it a rebuild. There were a lot of people (not just nationally, but on this board) that thought this would be a big step back year for the Bills---possibly missing the playoffs. Why can't people just say, yeah, I'm happy that we are better than I thought we were going to be, let's hope it continues. Rather than, yeah, well let's see what they do in the playoffs first, or our record is easy, or qualify it in some other way. However you add it up, 8-2 is a very good season thus far and I do not see a team the Bills can't beat (there is no juggernaut team this season). So, why shouldn't our aspirations be a Super Bowl? And why shouldn't we give props to Sean and Brandon for keeping us a top-end team through a transition period? It may not be a rebuild, but it was a significant transition. Of the 62 players that played in a game for the Bills in 2023, 25 of them are gone. That's 40.32% of the roster turned over. That's pretty big. To keep the team winning through that is worthy of props, imo.

It's crazy when you really think about it. Only 9 behind Thurman, as a QB, mid-way through his 7th year? I think this is something that a lot of the media and fans outside of Buffalo overlook with Josh. They all know he can run, but they seem to ignore his rushing yards and rushing TDs when adding everything up (as far as ranking QBs or whatever). He's 2nd All-time for QBs in rushing TDs, 18 behind Newton. [He has 26 more rushing TDs than Lamar Jackson, btw.] Josh has played 103 games and has 56 rushing TDs. Cam had 52 rushing TDs in his first 103 games. (Josh also has 34 more passing TDs than Cam did after 103 games). Thurm had 54 rushing TDs after 103 games (granted he also had 18 receiving TDs at that point in his career). O.J. had 55 rushing TDs (12 receiving TDs) after 103 games. *Jalen Hurts did just score his 50th rushing TD in just his 71st game. So he and Josh will be vying against each other for Cam's record. Josh had 36 rushing TDs after 71 games (to Hurts' 50), but Josh also had 49 more passing TDs than Hurts after 71 games. So, Hurts may end up with the record in the long run, but the fact that Josh is right there with Newton and Hurts, while at the same time throwing so many more TD passes than either of them, is really impressive.

It was so obvious. Not sure how the refs on the field didn't see it the same way as the fans and now the NFL front office.

If I know the NFL, they would love to see Lamar and King Henry getting rings this year. I think KC, as always, would be their next choice. No globally marketable QBs in the NFC (Daniels is only a rookie). So, most likely SB, imo: Baltimore vs. Philly or KC vs. Philly, with the AFC team winning.

I've seen this far too often from refs. They see some body movement or after-effect of an action and then assume the action must have been a penalty to create that outcome, so they throw the flag...even though they didn't actually see any infraction. If you don't see it, don't call it! And I know a lot of people don't like to think this way, but sometimes it sure seems like the refs/NFL do a little bit of steering to keep a team in it, keep things close (more exciting games, etc.). I often say, you have to look at when penalties occur (what down, what point in the game, etc.), not just add up how many each team has at the end and say, see 9 to 10 (or whatever) the refs called it evenly. 1. First Quarter. . Miami punted on their first drive. Codrington has an electric punt return. Bills score a Field Goal. Crowd is into the game. Now Miami is on their second drive 10 minutes into the game and have a 3rd and 11. They make a big play (17 yards), but Mostert lowers his head into Rapp. Clear penalty on Mostert. Should have been a 15-yard roughness call on Miami. And they're punting from their own 14-yard line...giving the Bills great field position and a chance to go up 10-0 at the end of the First Quarter with Miami having done nothing offensively and the crowd going crazy. Instead, they get the 17-yard pass play and 15 yard penalty (32 yards), they then eke out 18 more yards on 5 plays and kick a field goal to make it a 3-3 tie-game at the end of the first. 2. Second Quarter...35 seconds left in the half. Miami is up 10-3. Josh Allen has a monster, momentum-changing, run that ties the game and electrifies and energizes the crowd. But there is a phantom holding call on Torrence (one play after a phantom call on Dawkins). Bills should have gone into the half tied at 10 and with all of the momentum. Instead the crowd and team got quieted (flag...awwww) and they have to settle for a field goal and go into the half down by 4 (10-6). If not for just those two bad calls, it probably would have been 17-7 Bills lead at the half (instead of 10-6 Dolphins), and going into the locker room with a ton of momentum and a crowd still in a frenzy from Josh's run. Considering the Bills scored TDs on their two possessions in the 3rd quarter, while Miami only mustered 3 points in the 3rd, we are talking about a 31-10 Bills lead at the end of the third quarter (instead of 20-16 Bills). And if the 4th quarter played out the same (which it probably wouldn't have, but...), we're then looking at a final score of 41-24 Bills. And, of course, that is not even considering all of the holding calls that could have been called on the Phins but weren't. Just two key penalties at the right time can change a blow-out into a nail-biting, shoot-out.

Just wanted to point out that Josh Allen put two Dolphins players on their arses with his pump fake on the TD to Hollins. Check out #26 and #20 (on opposite sides of the field). You can see #26 clearly on the main clip and the first replay, you can see better what happened to #20 on the 2nd replay. Josh's fake is so good, it seats them both. That's OUR Quarterback! https://www.buffalobills.com/video/josh-allen-with-a-1-yard-touchdown-pass-to-mack-hollins-bills-vs-dolphins [Mods feel free to merge this with GameDay thread or wherever if you think it's best.]

He's a third year receiver, who has only been starting since about mid-season last year. It's safe to assume that he still has room to grow. Experience is a real thing in the NFL. And I don't think anyone is talking about him being the best WR in the league. They are talking about him becoming a top-receiver in the league. I think it comes down to how you define a top receiver. You are defining it as top 3-5 with 1,500 yards and 10 TDs. I think others have a broader view of top. With 32 teams, I'd say if you are in the top 15-16 WRs, I would consider you a top receiver in the league. Now is Khalil capable of that? Last year, George Pickens was 16th in yards with 1,104 yards and 5 TDs. Since Khalil has been starting (when his snap count went up last year), he has 957 yards and 4 TDs. That is over a 17-game stretch (basically one season). His first 17 games as a starter. And his snap count and targets are up significantly this year. Add in experience, and could we see maybe 1,200 yards and 7 TDs? I think so. Looking at 2023 receiving yards stats, that would put him in the range of Chase, Diggs, K. Allen, and Cooper. I think Khalil is definitely capable of 1,100-1,200 yards and 5-7 TDs. Might not make it this year, but the talent is there. Now, of course, Khalil will never look like Jefferson, Chase, Brown, Lamb, etc. because you're not going to throw him jump balls, or certain other passes because of the size difference, etc. He's a different kind of player. Those guys are true X/boundary receivers, while Khalil will make more of his money over the middle of the field. But does it matter how you make your yards? Are Andre Reed or Tyreek Hill or Wes Welker not top receivers because a lot of their yards came over the middle of the field and/or with YAC? And let's face it. His catch percentage is amazing...would be even if every single target was a screen pass, which obviously they are not.

From week 1 of the 2023 season until now---week 8 of 2024 (last 25 NFL games) James Cook is 4th in yards from scrimmage for running backs. Now, of course, guys get injured (for instance McCaffrey is a much better RB, but is lower on the list due to being injured, and obviously, some offenses are better than others). But still, Cook has to still be in the top 10 at least if you are talking about right now and not say career/past history. Are there really 10 guys on that list that you would put ahead of Cook right now? I think I'd only put like 4-5 guys ahead of him right now. [Interesting that the number one spot goes to Breece Hall. Also note that Cook has the 4th fewest touches of the top 18 guys. For instance, if you pro-rate Cook's yards per touch to the number of touches Breece has, Cook would have 2,527 yards. If you pro-rated all of the players to 460 touches, Cook would be in 3rd---behind only Jamyr Gibbs and Christian McCaffrey.] Yards from scrimmage for RBs (2023-2024) [and number of touches] 1. Breece Hall 2,414 [460 touches] 2. Derrick Henry 2,393 [461] 3. Bijan Robinson 2,253 [419] 4. James Cook 2,164 [394] 5. Joe Mixon 2,134 [449] 6. Saquan Barkley 2,114 [435] 7. Rachaad White 2,031 [431] 8. C. McCaffrey 2,023 [339] 9. Jamyr Gibbs 2,006 [345] 10, Kyren Williams 1,973 [418] 11. Alvin Kamara 1,972 [416] 12. Najee Harris 1,949 [437] 13. Tony Pollard 1,919 [442] 14. James Conner 1,917 [380] 15. D'Andre Swift 1,910 [396] 16. Josh Jacobs 1,883 [432] 17. Chubba Hubbard 1,836 [419] 18. Travis Etienne 1,805 [397] 19. David Montgomery 1,685 [342] 20. Ken Walker 1,672 [349] 21. Brian Robinson 1,641 [324] 22. Aaron Jones 1,617 [298]

I remember being bugged by everyone lauding the Jets for their 2022 draft. And I was like, of course they had a good draft, they had 4 picks in the top 36 picks (two in the top 10 of the first round). That's not necessarily great drafting, that's just having a lot of good picks. So, we are not quite to the year 3 mark (2-1/2 years currently) when you can truly start evaluating draft classes. But here's a comparison anyhow: #4 overall Sauce Gardner CB #10 Garrett Wilson WR #26 Jermaine Johnson LB (Did not start rookie year, played well in year two, on IR this year with an achilles) #36 Breece Hall RB #101 Jeremy Ruckert TE (mid-way through year three has 11 starts with 36 recs for 205 yards, no TDs) #111 Max Mitchell T (12 starts in 42 games, Jets backup right tackle) #117 Michael Clemons DT (9 starts in 42 games. Rotational DT). UDFA: Tony Adams S (7 games played, 7 starts), Irvin Charles WR (8 games played, 0 starts) #23 Kaiir Elam CB (only 8 games started for our #1 pick) #63 James Cook RB #89 Terrell Bernard LB #148 Khalil Shakir WR #180 Matt Araiza P (we all know what happened here) #185 Christian Benford CB #209 Luke Tenuta (only played in 3 games for the Bills---no longer with the team) #231 Baylon Spector (3 starts, backup LB) UDFA: Alec Anderson OL (8 games played, 2 starts); Ja'Marcus Ingram CB (13 games played, 0 starts) Jets average draft position in 2022 = 58th pick Bills average draft position in 2022 = 141st pick So, for the starters (4 for each team): RB: Hall vs. Cook (imo, even, with a slight edge to Cook with how he is playing right now and the team around him. Overall, Hall has 159 yards and 1 TD more than Cook over three years. Cook picked 27 spots lower than Hall) WR: Wilson vs. Shakir (Wilson gets the edge here---but not by as much as would have been expected, considering that Khalil was picked 138 spots lower than Garrett. Of course, Khalil has had the better QB play too. Can you imagine Wilson with Josh throwing him the ball?) LB: Johnson vs. Bernard (Bernard is better, both have had some injury issues. Terrell has 109 more tackles and 5 more turnovers in only 5 more starts---Bernard was picked 53 spots lower than Johnson. Johnson was picked that high because he was considered a great edge player/pass rusher. He does have 10 sacks...but Terrell isn't far behind with 6.5 sacks.) CB: Gardner vs. Benford (I'll give a small edge to Sauce because teams will shy away from him and he's more athletically gifted. But again, it's a lot closer than expected, considering Benford was selected 181 picks after Sauce). So, imo, the Bills came away with just as good of a draft despite the Jets picking way above us. Their last pick (their 7th pick) was selected in the top third of the fourth round. We only had 3 picks total in the first four rounds. Five of our picks were selected well after the Jets draft was already done. The Jets had three first round picks, two in the top 10, and 4 picks in the top 36! (The Bills only had 1 pick in the top 62.) Now, Wilson is definitely a guy and Sauce is very good. But I think I still might take our draft (by a nose), and that's despite having blown our first pick and the whole Matt Araiza situation. Of course, I'm biased because I like OUR players...but even if you take the Jets draft over ours, it's not by much, and it's despite their picks being so much higher than ours. Pretty darn good work by Beane (outside of the Elam pick) based on where we were selecting.