folz

Fair enough 26CB...and I agree that both were great QBs. And the line about fantasy wasn't directed at you but more at posts like the one below. Just posting stats doesn't tell the full story. Did you ever actually watch Kelly play? Overrated? Just as an experiment (stat-wise) let's look at a couple of things. First, Marino played 17 years in the NFL. Kelly played only 11. Kelly played two years in the USFL. Now comparing those stats to NFL stats may be a bit of comparing apples to oranges, but if you add those in it becomes: Marino: 61,361 yds, 420 TDs in 17 seasons Kelly: 45,309 yds, 320 TDs in 13 seasons You posted Kelly's yearly average, but not Marino's Kelly: 3,485 yds, 25 TDs, 17 INTs Marino: 3,609 yds, 25 TDs, 15 INTs That equates to about 8 yards more per game for Marino and 0.125 fewer Ints/game. Hmmm... Not looking like quite as big of a difference anymore. And if you prorated Kelly's averages out to 17 seasons it would look like this (not saying the length one plays/durability isn't a factor in making a player great, but again, Marino always avoided contact and Kelly took it head on, so goes to figure his career was a bit shorter). Kelly: 59,245 yds, 425 TDs, 289 INTs Marino: 61,361 yds, 425 TDs, 255 INTs Yes, it's just a lot of number crunching, but it shows that the gap probably wasn't as big as it seems on a year to year basis, as opposed to just looking at their overall yards/TDs at the end of their careers.

I guess you stopped watching Kelly's career and the Bills after the 1989 season. Yes, Kelly came in as a cocky SOB. But under Marv/Polian and through the bickering Bills stuff, he matured and became a huge team guy. He had the entire team over to his house after games, look at the relationships the players still have, he never cared about his stats, etc. Yes, Jim had a better supporting cast (at least RB and usually defense) and as I said before Marino was by far the better pure passer (the guy broke just about every record there was), but I would still take Kelly for those precious intangibles. Watching both of their careers side-by-side (yes, with a Bills bias) there is no doubt that Kelly was a better leader and tougher. Marino would throw balls into the ground to avoid getting hit. I don't think I ever saw Marino make a tackle on an interception or get out in front of a RB who had reversed field to block for him. Now a QB shouldn't necessarily do those things because you don't want him getting hurt, but ask the other guys on the team who are constantly putting themselves in harm's way, how they feel about their QB if he does do those things. They follow him. Plus Marino was a whiner with refs, with teammmates. Kelly wasn't. So, no question Marino was a more prolific, skilled passer. His release may have been the quickest I've ever seen. Great player. Great QB. But I'm still picking Kelly as QB of my team. This isn't fantasy, this is football.

Marino was a better passer, but if I'm building a team I take Kelly everyday over Marino for the intangibles (heart, leadership, toughness, smarts, team-focused, etc.).

Great stuff as always Cover1; I really enjoy your breakdowns. A very encouraging look at Poyer's game. Like you said, if we only watch the game once and then look at the stat line, so many great contributions from players get missed/overlooked by us fans. I think the D is going to be fun to watch this year---back to being a stout unit. In the first play that you showed, when he was still a Brown, I love how he holds contain against both the QB and RB until he was sure the RB had the ball and then the RB made his decision on what hole to attack...and then he still got inside quick enough to make the tackle. How many big plays happen because someone didn't set the edge properly. Nice to see.

I'm wondering...in regards to lack of tempo/offense looking flat (bad)...could it partly be bad timing/fatigue in this game? Camp in Rochester broke on Tuesday. The team travelled back to Orchard Park Tuesday afternoon. One night with the families (after being gone for 3 weeks) and then on a plane to Philly the next day. Maybe it was too much (on top of learning new offense, only having Boldin for a week-and-a-half, no Matthews, no Glenn, starting Ducasse, etc.). Look forward to seeing if they show more strongly in the 3rd game. Nice write up OP.

Already in mid-season form: Lorenzo Alexander: Two of the best plays of the night were his smackdown on the Eagles kick returner and running down Wentz from behind. The guy is ageless. Richie Incognito: The only O-lineman who came to play last night. His block on (Dawkins/Jenkins?) out in space on a run was a thing of beauty. LeSean McCoy: Shady gonna be Shady Kyle Williams: Stout up the middle and good penetration. Jerry Hughes: Coming off the ball fast Thank God for vets! Had a good game or flashed: Preston Brown, Joe Banyard (except for the fumble), DeAndre Coleman, Stephen Hauschka, Zay Jones, Matt Milano, Nick O'Leary, Nathan Peterman, Jordan Poyer, Rod Streater (hope he's ok), Brandon Tate, Max Valles, Brandon Reilly. Positives: The defense (especially the run defense). Concerns: The Offensive Line (yikes), Tyrod and the WRs (in the new system---hoping they can build some chemistry in the next couple of weeks), Penalties. Ducasse started over Miller? That actually makes me glad, because I saw the right guard get absolutely blown up on a number of plays early in the game. I was assuming it was Miller. I watched the game on the NFL Game Pass replay and therefore got the Philadelphia announcers, who hardly mentioned a Bills player. So, sometimes it was tough knowing exactly who was in at certain times.

If you're starting Peterman now it would mean you think he gives you the best chance to win. And if that is the case, then isn't it just as probable that he too would lead the team to a 7-9, 8-8 record. Why would the only two scenarios be he takes you to the playoffs or you're a 3-win team? The only thing it would do is give you a better idea if Peterman has the potential moving forward, but you may end up sacrificing quite a bit more---the staff may lose the team, especially the older vets who really want to win now, unless they too really believed that Peterman gave the team a better chance to win.

The guy has only been playing real football again for a week-and-a-half. He's still learning the offense and QB and he was probably playing out of his true position at this point in his career (due to Matthews being hurt). Give him some time fellas. Fans can be so impatient whether it be with rookies developing, players learning a new offense, etc. Of course the game made us nervous about the starting offense, but with new coaches, new system, and so many new players, there was no way they were coming out of the gate explosively. This offense will be a work-in-progress and will take some time to come together. I just hope that it is early in the season and that the defense can carry us until then.

Didn't read through the whole thread, only the first couple of pages, so I apologize if I'm repeating anything, but... Of course they discussed trading Sammy previously. Beane said he's been getting calls about him since June. So, the FO and McD have obviously had lengthy discussions about it. But maybe previously, they didn't feel the deals were good enough or they wanted to make sure and cover themselves for this year with a player to fill in. And then maybe the day of the game the right offers appeared. Maybe one of the teams jumped in, maybe someone upped the ante, maybe the Bills finally found a trade partner to get back the right players to fill in. So, the talks heated up, but Beane didn't want to bring it to Sean before the game because he had a lot to deal with in his first game as a head coach. So, he waited until after the game. They were able to make a quick decision because they had already discussed thoroughly the possibilities, compensation they wanted, etc. But more than all that, what does it really matter who knew when. I felt the same thing when people were up in arms with Whaley and Pegula over the Rex firing. Who cares? It just doesn't matter (to quote Meatballs). If someone did lie in either situation, it was probably just to save someone else some heat in the press. And that is not the type of lie that would make someone a Donohoe in his bunker type.

Kind of disappointed to see the negative posts in a thread started to welcome Jordan to the Bills. Especially since there are plenty of other threads to post your negative opinions in. He didn't ask for this trade and has nothing to do with Sammy no longer being on the team. Don't blame him for this. And in regards to the drops, if you prorated Sammy's 2 drops out to the same number of targets that Matthews had, Sammy would have had 4.5 drops last year. Will a one-and-a-half drops per season difference really change the outcome of this year? 27 players had 5 or more drops last year. 15 had 6 or more drops last year, including Brandon Marshall, Odell Beckham, Michael Crabtree, Mike Evans, Travis Kelce, Demaryius Thomas, and T.Y. Hilton. Not to mention that Jordan was playing with a rookie QB. WELCOME TO BUFFALO JORDAN! I look forward to seeing you play and tear it up for the Bills!

Happy for him. Tough injury just when it looked like his arrow was pointing up. Glad he's getting another shot.

I totally understand the move, wish it was a 6th, but better something than nothing. I will, however, always have a soft spot for the kid because of his reaction when the Bills drafted him (see link) and because he seems like a good person (see his tweet to Buffalo upthread). I wish him success. http://ftw.usatoday.com/2016/05/cardale-jones-2016-nfl-draft-shirt-buffalo-bills

Found the stats and videos from the Spring League in case anyone was curious how Fred and Boobie did. Freddie had 47 yards on 8 carries for a 5.9 yd/avg. Boobie had 55 yards on 6 carries for a 9.2 yd./avg. with a 49 yard TD. So most of his yards came on that one play. Box scores from the game: http://www.flofootball.com/article/59154-spring-league-showcase-player-stats#.WXWAxYWcG3D Video highlights from the game: http://www.flofootball.com/event/255811-the-spring-league-showcase/videos

No...there's at least two of us. And I find it interesting how angry many people get if you even question it.

I think that intel may be at least a year old. I remember hearing a rumor similar to that not last season, but the one before. Tyrod and Rex's first year. That either they were forcing too many balls to Sammy, even if he was covered, or Tyrod was staring him down a bit and some players thought the offense was better when the ball got spread around more. So, that would have been after Sammy called for the ball more and maybe while he was having that really good stretch at the end of 2015. Maybe that sentiment carried over a bit to last year, but with Sammy being out so much and the rest of the receiving core now having basically turned over, not to mention a new coaching staff, I don't think this is the current thought by anyone on the team, but instead was how some guys felt like a year or more ago. At least that's my recollection and assumption.

Guys will miss some tackles, it's the NFL afterall. The guys on the other side are pretty damn good too. But, I am excited to watch guys who are not just willing tacklers and run defenders, but guys who actually seek contact and like to hit hard: Shaq, Reggie, Tre, etc. Goodbye to players like Gilmore who dance and backpedal away from contact. As most coaches will tell you, Xs and Os are valuable, but football always comes down to the basics: Blocking and tackling. Two yard runs that turn into eight yards or a ten yard run that turns into a TD due to missed tackles is what can kill a team.

Dude, I hear you and I think so many of us feel similar---beat down by the mediocrity. I won't say we are going to be a playoff team this year, too much change to be sure of anything, as this threads posits, but I've decided to just enjoy watching football and rooting for the guys on our team (all of them). No idea what the win column will look like, but here is what I will be excited to watch this season, win or lose: 1. We have a hall-of-fame running back who makes moves few players who have ever played the game could make and one of the fastest, most elusive QBs the league has seen (whatever you think of the rest of his game). I'm sorry, but those guys are fun to watch and will definitely give us some eye-popping plays this year. #1 in rushing two years straight. 2. If Sammy is healthy for the majority of the season, ditto. Whatever you think of his tweets, his injuries, or how he was acquired, the kid is supremely talented. If he can stay on the field, it will be fun to watch him play. 3. The D-line. Three years ago, that D-line was a beast. Yes, we have Shaq rather than Mario, but I will enjoy watching a wall-of-famer in probably one of his last seasons, a rededicated Mr. Big Stuff, Jerry, and Shaq creating chaos in the backfield again. 4. Speaking of Shaq, I'm excited to see our young players play and develop. Shaq, Ragland, Tre, Zay, Dion, Kevon, J. Williams, etc. 5. I'm excited to see Micah Hyde in a Bills uniform. We may be hurting at safety depth. But Hyde is one of those kids that is always around the ball. I think he will be fun to watch. 6. We don't know how McDermott will be on game day, etc. yet. But I look forward to seeing a coach who can balance being liked by his players but still having discipline (unlike Rex and Marrone who were on opposite ends of that spectrum). A football team needs accountability and discipline, but it also needs comradery and cohesiveness. I thick coach can at least deliver on that and that is the type of team I want to root for. 7. Whatever the outcome this year, I do feel like we are building to something with the new FO and coaching staff---a plan, a vision---rather than just hiring who ever will take the job cheap and then simply patching the leaky holes and hoping for the best. So, even if it doesn't happen this year, I feel like its coming. Would it have been as fun watching the '90 or '91 team without having seen them go through '86-'89 first? Watching that team come together and almost reach the pinnacle was more satisfying because we were there for the whole ride. I could probably go on, but the point being, yes, we all want to see this team win again and it sucks when they lose, but there are plenty of reasons to watch this coming season. This is not your early- to mid-2000s teams that were mediocre because their talent across the board was so mediocre, which equated to boring games. We have some real, legit, playmakers, who if nothing else, will at least make this team exciting to watch. I look forward to seeing a hard-nosed, competitive team playing some good football, win or lose. Hopefully that leads to more wins, if not immediately, in the near future.

In Fitz's defense, at the time we let him go, I remember guys saying the same things...he's never been more than a backup, he sucks, he shouldn't be starting, third stringer at best. And at that time I crunched some numbers (so this is pre-Titans, Houston, and Jets---maybe I should revisit those numbers) and Fitz basically came out every season around the 15-17 range of QBs in the league. People way over exaggerate his suckitude. I'm not saying you want him as your starter for a long time because he does give games away when he has to press in the 4th quarter, he has a hard time throwing deep outs (arm strength), and no team should be satisfied with a mediocre starting QB. And you can talk all you want about the QB talent-level in the league being low (and I'll agree with you), but it doesn't change the fact that while he was with the Bills (and the one year in Cinci), he was an average starting QB, ranking ahead of a good 15 or so other starters in the league each season he started. So, give the guy his due...he most certainly deserved to be a starter in this league, if only for the fact that there were never 32 guys significantly better than him. You're not pinning your hopes on him, but he was better than a lot of what else was out there. That's why it has been tough on teams whether it be signing him or releasing him. You know he isn't going to take you to the promised land, but he was probably better than each team's other options. Let's look at the quarterbacking situation of each team the year after they each dumped Fitz: 2013 Bills: EJ Manuel and Thad Lewis 2014 Titans: Charlie Whitehurst and Zach Mettenberger 2015 Texans: Brian Hoyer and Brandon Weeden 2017 Jets: Hackenberg and Petty???? I don't see any upgrades there. Like I said, you could do a lot worse than Fitz, so please stop claiming that he wasn't worthy of being a starter all these years. Mediocre, middle-of-the-pack starter, yes...but a starter none the less (not a career back-up or third stringer), at least in this era of weak QB play. Ok, have at me...

At VY's interception rate, if he had 166 TDs like Fitz, he would have had 184 interceptions...51 more INTs than Fitz. If you're going to call someone out for something (as a reason why you should be playing over them), you should at least be able to demonstrate that you are better than that person in that particular stat.

I don't think the writer knows what "tanking" means (see 2011 Colts/current Jets) The Bills are doing what he says: straightening out the salary cap by not spending recklessly or putting too much money into the future, collecting draft capital (the extra 1st next year to grab a QB), etc. But all of that is exactly what Beane and McDermott have been saying...we are trying to win now, but not by sacrificing being able to have sustained success into the future. That is not tanking, that is being smart with a team in a bit of a transition.

Interesting that he lists receiving touchdowns for some RBs and not others. He did not give that stat for Thurman, despite Thurm having more receiving TDs than anyone on that list, except for Marshall Faulk. Emmit Smith and Curtis Martin are so overrated (not just by this list, but in general). And Bo doesn't deserve to be up there...it's not a who could have been great list, but who was great (which also eliminates Zeke as others said). As far as Thurman goes, I would say there are only 5 or 6 guys on that list ahead of him that are definitely greater players than he was. Then there are about 7 more guys that I think you could have a healthy debate about if they were better than Thomas or not, maybe agreeing that 3-4 of them were. So, I would slot Thurman in somewhere between 9 and 12.

The only other games during the drought that come to mind as far as being close to that level of disappointment, although playoffs weren't on the line like in the Steelers game, was the Monday night loss to Dallas, letting them comeback and take that one still burns, and maybe the Leodis fumble against the Patriots in 2009; Pats scoring 2 TDs in the last two minutes of the game. But, I'm surprised the 90s teams only made the list once, and at 22, as far as offense goes (I don't have ESPN Insider, so just going off what the OP said). I wonder if it is a different era issue (more points get scored now). Other possibilities from the available excerpt could be that DVOA limits the value of big or long plays because they aren't as repeatable. The K-gun scored fast, which meant a lot of big plays. DVOA also, apparently, takes into account field position based on special teams. The 90s teams were excellent, so maybe that weighs in too.What else? Or were they just not as prolific as my memory tells me they were? As I said, didn't see the whole article, so I'm not sure which teams are on the list, etc. Just surprised that the 90s team wasn't better represented.

Hey, good for Maclin. It may turn out well for him or it could be a bad decision, we will see. But as always, I want guys who want to be here...that is important to the whole team concept. You know who does want to be here and to get their shot? Guys like Jones, Holmes, and Brown. They may feel they have even more to prove now (after the Maclin scare). Let's see what you got Zay, Andre, and Philly. Stay young and hungry Bills!

Just for some perspective, regarding averaging 300 yards a game, it ain't easy! In the last 4 seasons, QBs have averaged more than 300 yds/game for an entire season only 9 times (and 4 of those are Drew Brees)---so basically Drew Brees and one other QB each year average 300 yards a game for the season. (Rothlisberger is the only other QB to do it more than once in the last 4 seasons---he did it twice.) Now, 18 QBs last season averaged at least 250 yards a game for the season...but each of those QBs had somewhere between 73 and 237 more pass attempts than Tyrod. So, it is kind of hard to judge by yards/game when there is so much disparity in the number of attempts. So, let's take a look at avg. yds/pass. In 2016, Tyrod did not have a good average with 6.9 yds per pass play, putting him in the bottom half of the league. But in 2015, when he had better/healthier weapons, he averaged 8.0 yds per pass play, good for 5th in the league (for QBs who threw more than 35 passes). And if we were to extrapolate those number out to say a Drew Brees number of attempts, Tyrod would have averaged about 290 yds/game last year and a whopping 330 yds/game in 2015. So, again you can't look at yards per game without looking at number of attempts. And although I do expect us to still be a run first team, I guarantee with healthier weapons and Dennison's system, Tyrod will be throwing the rock more this season than last. We will be more balanced. And what, with all of these Western New Yorkers, no sauce recipes yet? Or a debate between the terms sauce and gravy?