folz

But just as they huddled up to talk and then say it wasn't pass interference, is it against the rules for the refs to huddle up and then say, although the play is not deemed pass interference, there was a foul on the play, holding against the defense? And then enforce that. There is a fine line between when it is still holding and when it becomes pass interference. The refs should have the ability to overrule the initial call for the correct penalty, not just pretend it didn't happen at all. Was this a coach's challenge? Or was it just the refs huddling up to change the call? (I didn't watch the game.)

I don't know if the NFL called in that reversal, although the ref is obviously listening to someone on his headset and I definitely don't put it past the NFL to skew games a bit here and there (I think it happens a lot), But, how can that not be a penalty. He basically tackled Kelce off the line of scrimmage. Tough to make that changed call seem believable (within the rules of the game)..

Look, Mahomes is great, and I'm sure there are fans here who wanted the Bills to pick him that draft. And right now, there are a ton of franchises that wish they picked him or traded up for him. BUT...it was the right decision for the Bills to pass on Mahomes at that time. That's the part that the "we should have picked Mahomes crowd" never seems to acknowledge. We had a first year defensive head coach. A GM that was about to be fired (what if the next GM doesn't like the QB you picked...instant conflict in the building), you don't trust the current scouting reports you have and haven't scouted the players in depth yourself (from McDermott's perspective), it was considered to be a weak QB class, while the following year's draft when you'd have your new GM was supposed to be a once in a generation QB class, neither Mahomes nor Watson were considered can't miss picks, they knew they were going to have to deconstruct the team first before building it back up (do you want to expose your new QB to that?), and maybe as a first year coach it was hard to put an offensive staff together that you trusted to develop a young QB (Dennison was obviously not McDermott's first choice for OC), McDermott didn't even know his own team yet (his player's strengths or weaknesses, their attitudes, who should stay and who should go), etc. This team was not ready to pick their franchise QB that year, it's that simple. In hindsight, sure, maybe you pick Mahomes and hope he is mentally tough enough to get through a tough first couple of years as you build around him. But again, it is not like everyone knew Mahomes was going to be as good as he has been either. People say it all the time, the draft is a crap shoot. And there was no guarantee with Mahomes. Maybe you liked him, but how many other QBs have you liked in drafts over the years that turned out to be busts? McD rightly played the odds at that time, and waited another year for a QB. It was the right call with the information he had and the situation that he was in. There is a term in friendly poker games called rabbit hunting. It is when a hand is over (maybe you folded) and you ask the dealer to see the next card, just to see if maybe you would have won. The dealer flips the card and its the card you needed to fill your inside straight. Damn, you could have won the pot. But, in reality, you still did the right thing by folding, because 9 out of 10 times you lose that hand. It seems to me that people are forgetting the odds and doing a little rabbit hunting when it comes to Mahomes.

I remember watching the playoffs that year, and Hyde was all over the field making plays. I so wanted the Bills to go after him. He was my number 1 FA target. I, of course, had no idea who Poyer was when he came, but I did find it interesting, at the time, that Poyer and Hyde shared a best friend (as was reported just after they were signed). I assume that was Kirksey. So, I had a feeling the chemistry between them was going to be good right away. Well, both have exceeded even my very optimistic opinions about them when they arrived. They have been the lynchpin to this defense for three seasons and they are both great leaders on and off the field, a big part of turning this culture around. And not that I care much about ESPN these days, but what a breath of fresh air Marcel Louis Jacques is as the AFC East reporter after Rodak and Grahm.

Did you guys know we could of had Haolti Ngata instead of Whitner? Wasn't sure if you had heard.

That's great! You've gotta love this kid!!!! So happy the Bills got him instead of any of the other 4 QBs in that draft. No knock against the other guys, but Josh is soooo Buffalo!

Yeah, I doubt the story. But if it were true, well, I don't know about you guys and gals, but I want to like the team I root for. And I really like this current team. I don't want to have to root for a player like OBJ, no matter how good he is. He is the complete opposite of the type of player this team is cultivating. I don't even want him on my fantasy team, let alone the Bills. Besides all of his other antics, I still can't get out of my head the Bills/Giants game a few years back where TWICE in one game he punched a Bills player and then ran and hid behind his offensive linemen to avoid retaliation. Punk move. (And he wasn't flagged for either instance, btw.) So, you can add unsportsmanlike and cowardly to his "me first" mentality. Plus, with as good as he is, why did the Giants get rid of him? If you have a superstar, you hold on for dear life, unless the guy is more trouble than he's worth. And if the Browns were actually looking to get rid of him after just 5 games, what would that say about him and how he must be in their locker room? Why would you want to risk having a possible malcontent or non-process guy in the locker room? I'd rather ride or die with the guys we got.

Not sure if its been mentioned, but I just rewatched the game on GamePass (condensed version) and on the Titans first drive, the pass play to Delanie Walker that got called back on a penalty, Lewan cheap-shotted Poyer. Walker catches the ball and after some decent YAC, is in the process of being tackled. He is wrapped up and there are like 4 Bills players surrounding him. Poyer was one of those players. Came up to gang tackle, but was just standing there because Walker was going down. Penalty flag had already been thrown. And then, having sprinted upfield from the line of scrimmage, Lewen comes in and blindside hits Poyer, knocking him to the ground. Totally unnecessary. Walker was surrounded and going down, flag already on the ground. Can't call it anything else except a cheap shot. I assume that is what first lit the fuse between the Bills defense and Lewen.

Good kid, worked hard, great locker room presence, was proud to be a Bill. I wish Zay nothing but the best with Oakland (unless he's playing the Bills, of course). I hope the change of scenery does him good and he goes on to have a long career. ...and now we get to look forward to seeing what Duke can do for the team! I think this is a good move for everyone (Zay, Duke, Foster, the fans, and hopefully the team). And I think the 2021 5th is a smart move by Beane. Zay obviously wasn't worth a 2020 5th or higher to any other team right now. And in next year's draft, we already have two 5th round picks and three 6th round picks. So, rather than take say a 6th or 7th round pick for next year, get a higher pick in 2021 and start building capital for that draft. We know how Beane likes to have assets in each draft, so he can move around.

Here we go! If the coaches think he's ready, I'm excited to see what he can do for this offense! We can go small and fast: Brown, Beasley, McKenzie, Foster Or we can bulk up and go power/size: Knox, Duke, Tommy/Smith, Zay. Think how much that could help the run game. And you still have enough weapons there to pass out of that grouping, to avoid being predictable. Or we could go any multiple, varied combinations in between based on matchups (obviously with Brown and Beasley still being two of your primary receivers most of the time). But lots of options for Daboll!

Yet, it was still the greatest game I've ever seen! It had a comeback (Dolphins were down 24-0 in the 1st quarter), a punt return for a TD, the famous "hook and lateral" play with no time left on the clock before the half, a back-and-forth 2nd half, two would-be game winning field goals blocked, and a third possible game -winning field goal missed, Strock coming off the bench to light things up after Shula sat Woodley, Kellen Winslow's monster game...basically being carried off the field twice only to come back in and make some huge plays, Fouts at his best, turnovers and double turnovers (an interception that was fumbled back to the offense), an almost full extra quarter of overtime (it took San Diego almost 14 minutes into overtime to seal the win), players absolutely exhausted but still giving their all, suspense like you wouldn't believe. This game had it all. A game of mythic proportion. It maybe shouldn't make a list of the most important games, since neither team made the Super Bowl. But if we are talking "Greatest" games, we are talking about the individual game, not the season that either team had, or the dominance of the NFC, or it having to be a Super Bowl. And it was the playoffs, so it did still have the one-and-done added pressure and excitement that a regular season game doesn't. Greatest game? Yeah, for me, this was and still is it.

Yes, for me, the San Diego/Miami game is by far the greatest NFL game I have seen in my lifetime. It was epic! I'm not old enough to have seen the Ice Bowl or the '58 championship (just highlights), but San Diego/Miami definitely ranks above "The Catch" for me too. And even as a Bills fan, it ranks above "The Comeback" (as the list has it). Pats/Falcons Super Bowl was a great comeback, but it was not a great game overall, pretty boring to watch unless maybe you were a Pats fan...same with Pats/Seahawks. Good game, memorable ending, but lots of great games I would rank ahead of it.

I know every game is important and if we didn't have a decent backup, I could see them maybe needing to rush him back. But with Barkley and the bye the following week, I'd rather Josh sit this week and get three full weeks to recoup. I recently suffered a mild concussion. I didn't show any symptoms until maybe 40 minutes after it happened (for those who might think that Josh jogging off the field on Sunday meant he was ok or it wasn't too bad), but then I had a mild but persistent headache for about 10 days and weird vision issues for the first few days right after it happened. I could function, but definitely wasn't at my best. Not fully present. And I certainly wasn't playing any contact sports through it. Of course every person is different (and Josh is way younger than I am), and every concussion is different. But I'd rather they be safe than sorry with Josh's health. I want to see him playing for this franchise for the next 10-15 years. Let Barkley and the defense hold down the fort for a week. At most, maybe start Barkley and have Josh as the emergency backup. I have a feeling that they don't feel comfortable with Webb having to see the field yet (if something were to happen to Barkley). Maybe that could be a good plan, if Josh clears protocol. And then if Josh had to go in, you just call a safe game for him. Keep him out of harm's way as much as you can. But I assume if he clears protocol, they will start him.

I'm not usually one to stop good discussion, but this seems way premature. We actually have a pretty decent team this year. Let it play out and enjoy the season and then make your final evaluations. I know in Buffalo over the last couple of decades, the offseason has been the best part of the year, because it was the only time to have some hope that things might get better. But to be having offseason-type of discussions after just 4 games seems a bit too early for me. What if Trent picks up his game and comes up with 9 sacks like he did a few years ago? What if Lee Smith doesn't have another penalty the rest of the year, but is a monster blocking for the run game? Etc. It might not happen, but there are still 12 games to play, so who knows right now.

I didn't have time to read the entire thread, so forgive me if I'm repeating other posters. Have I lost faith? Absolutely not. Josh is going to be fine. Stop overreacting. Yes, he needs to learn to throw the ball away and live for another down. And even if its third down, if nothing is there, throw it away. With our defense, it's ok to play the field position game. He needs to stop retreating on his scrambles, he took two sacks that took us out of field goal range doing that and that is where most of his interceptions have happened also, when he has run backwards away from the rush and then heaves up a prayer. He also needs to have better ball security and learn to slide. So, I'm not making excuses for Josh, you are right he needs to improve in a lot of areas. He played a very poor game yesterday. But he is a smart kid and eventually these lessons will start sinking in. I think he was really pressing yesterday because it was the Pats and he wanted the win so bad. (And oh by the way, they're the best defense in the league.) His competitive drive is what will make him great, but it is also the flaw in his game right now. He needs to learn to stay on a more even keel and not try to win the game on each play or possession. Football, especially against the Pats, is a war of attrition. Take what they give you and minimize the mistakes. One big play, more than not, is not going to win the game. You have to be consistent for 60 minutes. And his mistakes to this point, this season, hadn't hurt us overall (because we won the games), until yesterday. So, let's at least give him a chance to learn from this one. Knowing that his miscues were a big reason for the loss and then suffering the concussion, might make those lessons stick a little more strongly. I do, however, think that it is ridiculous to say you can't blame lack of experience for his miscues. Not every QB is Patrick Mahomes, who seems to be good right off the bat. But then not every QB goes to a team with Andy Reid as the head coach, a solid veteran QB to learn behind for a year, and supreme talent around him either. Look what Josh walked into last year. And in the old days, QBs wouldn't even start for three years, because that's how long coaches deemed it took QBs to get fully up to speed (if they were going to). Josh hasn't even played a full season's worth of games. To claim that is just an excuse by Allen apologists is so disingenuous. It is not an excuse, it is the truth. And the comparison to QBs with such a small sample size is such a bad argument. We have all seen new QBs come on the scene, have a few good games, then defenses figure out who they are and they come back to Earth. Minshew was such an unknown, teams may not have known how to prepare for him yet. Jones also, to a lesser extent. Plus you have to take into account who they are playing. If we played the Redskins yesterday and New York played the Patriots, who do you really think would have looked like the better QB? Do you really think Jones would have carved up that Pats D, while Josh would still throw 3 picks against Washington? And what about Baker's first three games this year. He also looked putrid, but to you he's a stud and Josh sucks. Come on man. I'll be very surprised if Jones and Minshew are just upward arrows (like Mahomes has been) the entire season, with no setbacks or bad games. To make sweeping judgements on one QB who has two starts in the league and another that has three starts in the league is the definition of overreaction. It was said that Josh couldn't improve his accuracy/completion percentage. Yet even after yesterday's really bad game, he is still up over 60% passing as compared to 52% last year. Players do learn and grow. There is a reason that there is an idiom that says, "Experience is the best teacher." So, why is it that you think he can't learn from these mistakes. He's a smart kid. If he were just a running QB, as we have seen many times in this league, once defenses learned to pin him in, he would be done. I think that is happening a bit now. Defenses are preventing him from escaping the pocket. He's not getting the big, easy runs like he did last year. So, he needs to progress from that being his game, the hero ball, etc. The thing about Josh though, is that unlike other QBs who were good runners, but not good throwers, Josh has all of the tools to develop into a very good pocket passer: size, arm strength, etc. He just needs to continue making that progression now that defenses are taking away some of his escapability. I am actually stunned with how many people are already ready to give up on the kid. That just screams of the instant gratification world we seem to now live in. Yeah, let's just cut him and start over again next year, he's obviously a bust who will never get better after just 15 games. Crazy talk. I would remind you that not only is experience the best teacher, but patience is a virtue.

Now we know why no one is scoring against the Pats. When you get in the red zone, the refs let the Pats do whatever they want. No call on the facemask and last red zone visit, they picked up the flag for pass interference. C'mon boys, take it to the Pats and the refs in the 2nd half. Hopefully Josh settles down at the half and remembers to throw the ball away if nothing is there. He basically took two field goals off the board by taking the sacks.

A lot of good points OP. The only thing I might slightly disagree with is that we could be a shock or may surprise the Pats. Belichick never let's his team underestimate an opponent. And we are 3-0, so I don't think they'll take us lightly or not know the caliber of team we are becoming. But, I do think you're right about us being more battle-tested at this point in the season. And we need every advantage we can get. And if we do beat the Pats, sure there will be a number of Pats excusers as to why we won. But I think the majority of the media would give props to McDermott and the Bills.

Toga party?

Another bench Zay for Duke or Foster thread. Ugh. How many of these do we need? If you people would actually read the threads that you start, you might stop asking this question. Suffice it to say, the coaches have a good reason for starting Zay at this point. I believe it to be that he has a much better command of a very complicated offense than Foster (2nd year UDFA who only ran a simplified version of the offense last year) and Duke (coming over from a different league entirely). Also, Zay is the best blocker of the three at the moment. You have to know who to block to get a good block. There may come a time where one or both of the two surpass Zay on the depth chart, but right now, according to the coaches, he is the best option for what the team wants to do. As I said in another post, playing wide receiver is about a lot more than just catching passes. When I saw the overthrow (out of bounds) during the game to Zay in the endzone, I said to myself, I bet there will be posters on TBD that somehow blame Zay for not making that catch. Just let things play out. If Duke or Foster prove to be better options at some point, I have no doubt that the coaches will give them more playing time. This staff doesn't play favorites. They put their best guys out there. And Zay has not had a ton of targets, but most of the balls he has caught have been big third down pick ups at important times of the game. Plus he's blocking his tail off. He is bringing value to the team, whether you care to see it or not.

As I posted in a thread last week, I believe this is the reason that Zay starts over Foster or Duke Williams (for those who continually wonder about that). He has a much better command of this very complicated offense than the other two do.

When you have a team as good as the 90s Bills, you worry about stats...because you want to prove that our guys/team are the best at this or that. With a young, developing team like we have now, just get the W. I don't care, for instance, what Josh's TD to INT ratio is right now, as long as he wins games. He will eventually clean that up with more experience. The same with any other stat. If they get the win and learn from the mistakes, that's all that matters right now. With as young as they are and with the number of new pieces coming together on the offensive side of the ball (plus the injuries in camp and preseason to the O line, etc.), there was very little chance that they would be explosive early in the season. They're still trying to find out who they are as an offense. But, as the season wears on and the unit has played together longer, by mid- to late-season, we might see some explosiveness. And as always, put the team first. With everybody pulling together and getting wins, the stats and individual accolades will eventually come. I do not see coaching as an issue at all. McDermott is a great motivator and chemistry/culture builder. Plus, he and Leslie Frazier have the defense playing pretty well. And I like the creativeness, disguises, and misdirection that Daboll and his staff are bringing to the table right now. They've got stuff to clean up and build on, but right now, I don't think our offensive philosophy is holding us back. Give them some time to come together. Experience is the best teacher.

I guess you didn't see him in 2017 when he subbed in for an injured Eifert on the Bengals. He showed a lot of promise. 400 yards, 7 TDs, 9.6/rec, 67.7% catch rate. I hope he comes back strong. How many years have we been starved for one TE. Now we could have four TEs that deserve playing time. Think of what Daboll can do with that.

Playing wide receiver is more than just making catches. To Zay's detractors, let me speculate for a minute... Daboll's offense is vast and complicated. A WR has to retain a lot of information because you often run similar plays out of different formations or different personal groups, etc. And the sheer volume of plays is a lot to learn. And coming from the New England school, each week is game specific. You're not really running the exact same offense each week. It changes every game. Plus, especially as the third wide out, you aren't going to see a ton of balls come your way, so you better be a good blocker for the team to have value in putting you out there. And that means understanding all of the run plays as well. Last year, we had a bad, unathletic offensive line. Daboll had his hands tied behind his back, so he had to simplify everything. No screens, no pulling plays, etc., etc. So, Foster had fewer plays to learn and run. Maybe he and Williams are just taking longer to master the offense. If they were the better players (overall), I think they would be playing. This coaching staff doesn't play favorites, they put their best men out there. And they know these players and what the team needs out of them a lot better than we do just seeing a nice catch here and there. I think it is a simple matter of Zay knowing the offense better and being the best blocker of the three (right now). We know that Zay had to help Benjamin when he was here, knowing where to lineup and it actually happened a couple of times in this preseason where Zay had to direct Foster as to the proper alignment on a play. Maybe Duke's transitioning from the CFL is taking some time. Maybe Foster didn't put the study and proper prep time in coming off of his rookie season (that happens to a lot of 2nd year players, not knowing how to be a true professional yet, and they have a sophomore slump). There is a reason that Zay is getting more snaps as of now. Also in Zay's defense, I find it interesting that people roast him for not catching a very difficult pass (the possible TD), a "drop" that they would have forgiven of any other receiver on the roster, but they never mention when he makes a big third down conversion. And with Josh throwing so many balls to Brown and Beasley and really spreading the ball around, of course Zay doesn't have gaudy stats. So to bring up his yardage after two games seems a pretty bad argument as well. Especially with the offense still trying to find their identity. Having said all of that, I love Foster and Duke and I hope they keep developing (I wanted Duke to make the 53). And if they reach a point where they unseat Zay, I'll be all for it. I know Zay hasn't lived up to his 2nd round draft status, but this bashing of Zay seems over the top to me. The kid does nothing but work hard and is a team player.

I know Zo hasn't even been here a full 4 years yet, but he already feels Wall of Fame worthy. He is so Buffalo! I hope he has another year or two in him, despite his age, and that the Bills don't put him out to pasture too soon.

I agree with so many of the answers above, but I don't want to repeat them, so I'm going to say I'm pleasantly surprised by the depth. We went from no Offensive line to at least 7 deep starting caliber players. Feliciano being the biggest surprise. Our #1 WR over the last 7 games last year is now 5th or 6th on the depth chart. Last year, the TE situation was ugly. When Kroft comes back, we will be 4 deep at TE. We're 4 deep at DT and DE Last year, when T. Johnson went down, we were in trouble. This year, in comes Neal, Marlowe, and the other Johnson and they hold down the slot. The rookies all look good. The young guys are ballin' out on special teams. Beane took multiple areas of weakness and made them strengths!