Dibs

I've thought exactly the same thing. The colts are a top team who are great to watch play & they have the most admirable QB in the league who is also arguably one of the greatest of all time as a passer......but they cannot stop the run at all. Manning cannot come from behind every game to win. It's pretty obvious why they (IMO) overpaid for Booger. What's more frustrating for a fan.....to be constantly rubbish...or...be constantly on the cusp of greatness with continual failure? As Bills fans we've experienced both in the extremes. I hope we are nowhere near the #10 pick next draft.....preferably we improve to the late teens area, not regress to top 4.

Yep...& I'm selling them for $3 a pop..... Sorry about the attack before.....for some reason I thought you were "Mr. I know these things", but upon re-reading your post I realize that you were nothing of the sort. Does a public apology curb your annoyance with the unwarranted insults......or do I start posting the photos up on the net?

I totally disagree with Fina.....but perhaps you are an example to the point I made in that many fans will under-value the talent of the decent players we have. Fina, near the finish could well have dropped to the bottom half of his possition but was certainly a decent LT for 4 years of the last decade. Jonas Jennings was also a decent LT for most of the rest of the decade in question. I agree that we have not had a dominant OL in the last 10 years(2004maybe?) but what I said was that most of the years we were 'average'...'OK'....'not bad'. Certainly a lot better than last year & this year(so far).

I saw but I thought to firstly show their quite comparable '1st year playing stats' would add to the discussion. Also, the rest of Mannings full 1st year starter stats started to drop after game 7....in fact game 8(his 16th start) his stats were 48-23-291-1td-4int....39.5QBR. To show that in his first full year as a starter(which will be JPs 'this year'), he only achieved a 75.9QBR puts things into a little bit more perspective that perhaps too many on this board are expecting too much from JP at this stage in his career.

My Mangold comment wasn't directed at you....sorry, I should have seperate posted. You pretty much ignored Williams & Ellison in your draft analysis....I stand by my comments of this draft is looking to be 'A' grade at this point & that your view of what should be reasonably achieved by a draft is waaaay skewed. In ref. above....If you are so knowledgeable and obviously astute in your talent assessments, why don't you try & work in the industry? Hang on a second.....aren't you the same Ozymandius that not only predicted that Winston Justice was worth a top pick but also GUARENTEED everyone that we would pick N'Gata?

Do you say that because Eli has the extra playing years experience, was better prepared straight out of college & has had an overall better talent level in those around him(mainly OL) & it would be obviously unfair to compare the two QBs as of this point?.....or.......do you say that because Eli is the better QB as of right now? I'm gonna compare them anyway. 1st starting year....(Eli played 9 started 7...JP played 9 started 8) Eli...197-95-1043-6td-9int...55.4QBR JP...228-113-1340-8td-8int...64.9QBR 2nd starting year....(Eli started 16....JP has started 7 so far) Eli...294-557-3762-24td-17int...75.9QBR JP...197-122-1313-6td-6int...78.9QBR Yes, we need JP to keep improving, but I'd say all things considered he has certainly done enough to deserve at least the rest of the season.

How did we know a 4th rounder would be good & a 1st(McCargo) & 3rd(Youboty...who was projected 1st round) are questions? You have some mighty high expectations for what achieves a good draft. If you were to get 2 good players from each draft, in 10 years you'd have 20 good players....or basically an all-pro team all round. At this point it is looking to have the potential of an awesome draft. Pretty much.....2 good players....2 decent players(who should improve?).....2 very high potential players(who may become stars...or busts)......1 7th round starter(???).....& 2 others. Remembering that we have only played 7 games, this draft class is looking extraordinarily promising. 1)Whitner......very good 1)McCargo....who knows? Injured & DTs often(like most rooks) take a few years. 3)Youboty....who knows? Most feel he will become a solid starter though. 4)Simpson....good 5)Williams....started from day 1 & looks like a keeper 5)Butler....who knows? 6)Ellison...started 4 weeks & looked like he will be a solid backup(or better) 7)Pennington....we'll find out in the next few weeks or so but is starting! 7)Merz....who knows? BTW.....if we had taken Mangold......we wouldn't have taken McCargo. It's foolish to look at the players that panned out after your picks & say "we could have taken him"......it all becomes extremely easy in hindsight.

WOW...I was going to ask where you got the stats from....I never knew they were there. Thanks for the info. BTW your line of..... ......is spot on.

Just nit picking here but the 2004 OL wasn't too bad at all. I don't think it could be considered 'good'....but it certainly wasn't considered bad that year. I'd say last year was perhaps the worst. Going back ten years though, I'm sure most of those years we've had at least an average OL......Fina & Brown IMO were under appreciated while at Buffalo. That seems to me to be a bit of a trend here....we look at our decent players & say...."well they're not as good as.....", & we want to replace them. WM is a good example of this.

But there's the rub...... 20 years of top ten flops....or a look at highly rated QB mediocrity #1 Vinny Testaverde #6 Kelly Stouffer #1 Jeff George #7 Andre Ware #6 David Klingler #2 Rick Mirer #3 Heath Shuler #6 Trent Dilfer #2 Ryan Leaf #1 Tim Couch #3 Akili Smith #1 David Carr(???) #3 Joey Harrington #7 Byron Leftwich(???) WOW thats a list of 14 busts(including the ???) In the same 20 years there has only been 8 QBs taken in the top 10 of the draft that have produced.....(Interestingly only Aikman & Dilfer have won the SB out of all the top 10 QBs selected in the last 20 years) #1 Troy Aikman #1 Drew Bledsoe #3 Steve McNair #5 Kerry Collins #1 Peyton Manning #2 Donovan McNabb #1 Michael Vick #1 Carson Palmer E.Manning, Rivers, A.Smith, Young & Leinart are all too early to tell(notice 2 are in the same year as JP) Please.....anybody.....somebody.....explain to me why we should give up on JP now & assuming we get a top 10 pick.....why should we invest it into a QB???

You forgot Jeff 'boy' George. .....& to think he could have been all ours.

Perhaps a large difference was the OL. As a unit they played very well together that year(2004) LT Jonas Jennings.... was playing for a FA contract & did a very good job that year. LG Ross Tucker....OK run blocker if I remember correctly C Trey Teague....played well that year RG Chris Villarrial.....top acquisition that year RT Mike Williams....was not a total bust at that point....was a good run blocker. The line also had some consistency with 2004 being the 3rd year together for Jennings/Teague/Williams. In comparison to today's(yesterdays) line.... LT moving to LG LG being benched C OK RG past his prime RT good, moving to LT ....with no consistency....only Villarrial has been with us more than 2 seasons. IMO the OLs effect on a RB is one of the most obvious.....look at virtually every great OL & you'll find a productive RB. To all those who say finding a top RB is easy.... R. Droughns goes from 4.5ypc Ave in DEN(with their OL) & drops to 4.0 with CLE & now 3.2ypc E. James goes from 4.1ypc Ave in IND(with their OL) & drops to 2.7 with ARI I have a feeling that the only way a lot of 'fans' will appreciate WM is if he gets injured & is out for a few weeks......or leaves.

I thought it was funny.

This is something I've been wondering lately.....if WM is far better at running to the outside, does that imply he actually does have good speed?

The thing that gets me is we could have gotten Leinart & Whitner......McCargopants in the second......Youboty would have lasted a few more rounds, I mean he hasn't even seen the field yet so with the two 3rd rounders we could have traded up into the 1st again & taken Mangold.....Bulter was an obvious reach, I mean what has he done yet, so I would have taken Youboty in his stead...traded down the Merz pick & still gotten him and Butler at the very end of the 7th round.....why the hell couldn't Marv & Co. see all this at the time....it absolutely baffles me......it was soooooo obvious that an idiot could have thought to do it, well I guess not an idiot since Marve must be one & didn't think of it......Oh if only I was GM we'd be in the playoffs already with all the good picks Marv grabbed, a star rookie C, which is obviously all we really need & the great Leinart.....hell, thinking about it, I would have traded JPL away to the Vikings for the 17th pick, traded down with that & got Laurence Maroney, since McGahee is obviously not good enough for our great team, & also grabbed OG David Joseph....just for insurance......the sooner we replace the front office, the owner, & the coaching staff the better we will be.....I think I have adequately proved that we will never be a winning franchise unless these things happen.....GO BILLS!

Good attempt......but totally obvious none the less.

JPL 1st 4 starts.... 94att-433yds.....4.6ypa JPL 2nd 4 starts 118att-770yds....6.5ypa Combined.....8 games 212att-1203.....5.7ypa This season...7 games 197att-1313.....6.7ypa

That sounds a little bit like sour grapes HA. The arguments for seeing if JP pans out are logical & sound. If he proves beyond much doubt by end of season that he just won't make it.....or if he has a major injury, obviously we will be looking at QB(again) in the draft.....until either of those occur, to say we need a new QB right now is emotional, reactionary & simply premature.

His actual Comp last season....49.6%(entire year) This season 61.9% (+12.3%) Big Improvement. .....and in terms of yardage..... His first 8 starts last season......150.4ypg His 7 starts this season.......187.7ypg Improvement. .....and in terms of QBR...... Last season.....64.9 This season.....78.9 Big improvement.

Remembering that this thread is about JPs obvious improvements......& it was in his first 15 starts not 12..... 3x200+ & 1x300+ games Last year JP started 8 games. The 1st 4 were.... 170, 113, 75, 75 The second 4 were.... 168, 197, 224, 181 In terms of yardage there was obvious improvement last season. This year JP has started 7 games....2x200+ games & a 300+ game 164, 83, 328, 224, 115, 207, 193 His last 5 games he has averaged 213.4. In comparrison to Roethlisburger..... In his first 15 starts.... 4x200+ & 1x300+ games In his last 5 games of those he had.....2x200+ games & a 300+ game.....just like JP......mind you, he was a rookie......but then again he had a top level OL & star tallent at the skills possitions around him.

But you said that JPs mistakes would get him benched at high school level....& you listed a couple of specific plays as examples. ganesh pointed out that QBs who are more accomplished do not get benched for similarly bad playing......(therefore your statement is countered) Your reponse back was...."JP hasn't accomplished anything."....which is true, but is not actually a counter to what ganesh said.

Who, do you think you are?

Yes, but the question is...."Is JPs current level of play acceptable, all things considered?" There is a heap of middle ground between JP's performance level last year(which was absolutely terrible) & all pro level. JP is playing somewhere in between...which seems to change play to play. One play he looks magnificent(Lions TD pass to RP)....the next he looks awful(your choice here). To me it seems that people expect him to play without errors. I expect errors from every QB. I expect more from those with bad OLs. I expect more from those without much game experience. What do you expect? If you go through the play-by-plays, you will find that most times this season, our drives have been stopped by players other than JP(though he obviously is the cause of some). Catches are dropped, stupid penalties are caused, stupid plays are called, blocks are missed causing blindside sacks, WRs are running a yard short of the 3rd down line. He has a 61.9% completion rate. When should he be completing his 'extra' passes? What completion percentage does he need to be considered in the average range??? YES, there is a huge difference between very good & very bad. JP is in the middle there just as his QBR reflects......& don't give me no schit about fumbles.....YES he fumbles & if he keeps on doing so he will fail as an NFL starter QB. That does not mean the rest of his game has not shown enough improvement for it to be ridiculous to call for his replacement at this point. BTW the great C.Palmer has fumbled 8 times in 6 games....JP has fumbled 8 times in 7 games. Again I ask people.... What performance level do you expect from JP at this point?

Well what are you going to do? Have a cry? Suck it in, face the reality & move forward.