Dibs

I totally agree that we have not spent enough resources in the past on the OL but I just don't understand why now....at this point in time.....it has become a huge bash the current FO & HC issue. We are talking about one mid round pick that had it been selected then this storm in a teacup would not be here. It seems to me that because the 2008 draft did not contain a 20% chance mid-round OL prospect then all of the sins of the past are dumped upon the FO & HC. This is ridiculous. The current regime has shown patients in their first draft.....paying dividends by not squandering a 1st rounder on LT when we had a probowler in the making(Peters). They then re-sign Peters and bring in 2 good FAs. At what point has the current regime shown that they are not aware of the OL issues? Since they have been astute & on the ball so far, why is there absolutely no trust in them that they just may have some idea of the talent that we have.....as well as potential backup talent which may be gotten via FA(for depth purposes)?

Not that I think it means anything but....... It was actually 18 of 32 teams drafted an OL, 4th round or higher this year.....14 teams didn't. Again....not that I think it means anything but...... 23 of 32 teams drafted a DB, 4th round or higher this year......only 9 didn't. FWIW.....and again I don't think it means anything..... 18 of 32 teams drafted a DL, 4th round or higher this year.....14 teams didn't.

It's possible......just as it's possible to find good players of any position in the mid-rounds.....just not likely. 20% chance.....that's the odds(using 2000-2005 drafts). To put forward after the 2008 draft that it was bungled because no OLman was drafted in the mid-rounds is ridiculous. Let's say we drafted an OG in the 4th......whoopee....we have a 1 in 5 chance that that player will develop into a better player than Fowler.

Your first point I think is spot on......except for 'the primary reason' bit which I'll address in another thread. I'm surprised you are accepting all of this baloney about how important it was that we didn't use a 4th-6th draft pick on the OL....it dilutes your(long standing) point that the good OLmen typically are drafted in the 1st round. All that this recent talk of mid-round OL picks is doing is perhaps convincing people that drafting for the OL there is good enough. Drafting the OL in the mid-rounds gives as much chance as any position of finding a starter caliber player(around 20%).....and a tiny chance of finding a starter of good or better caliber. Your second point is......well.....it's like a petulant child irrationally stamping their foot. Ignoring Whitner, DJ(& the FO) has shown that the most important areas in their eyes have been the DL & the OL. I've said before.....the only large contracts given out through FA signings, re-signings or trades by this current Bills regime(except for Mitchell) has been to either the DL or OL or ST. Peters, Dockery, Walker, Schobel, Stroud, Johnson, Tripplett, Kelsay.....no DBs.....one LB.....no QBs.....no WRs(Parrish as probowl PR).....no RBs.....no TEs(though RR got decent money). This organization has invested heavily in the lines. In regards to the draft.....starting backwards..... 2008....I would still prefer to have drafted Albert over McKelvin but like most(all?) I can see that the McKelvin pick was actually a good one. Hardy was a no-brainer.....and 3rd round Ellis.....all the good OLmen were gone, not a bad pick. 2007....You yourself are happy with that draft 2006....Leading into this draft, most wanted a LT. Obviously the new management wanted to see what we had on the OL & that paid off in spades with Peters becoming a pro-bowler. Whitner(your bugbear) was not only a pick for great need but also one of relative safety(pardon the pun). A very good solid player.....which is a good result(to those who look at things in perspective). McCargo was yet another Lineman for the team & Youboty(3rd rounder) was apparently a miss. This last part being very important......had he developed I'm certain that we would not have drafted Corner. The point being that it is more important to succeed when drafting.....not simply drafting a position of 'importance'(since to be a SB caliber team, you need solid/good players everywhere....and depth). What about next year? I'd love an OG in the 1st(assuming Butler doesn't shine). Why? Because of the success rate. I'd hate.....absolutely hate for us to draft an OT in the 1st. Why? Apart from Peters should be a star for the next decade....unless we draft one in the top 7 spots we know there is little chance that we will get a star LT.....and a star LT is IMO the most valuable thing to have on a team apart from star QB. 1st round C? I haven't checked on the success rates for C but again I'd love for us to draft one. We had the chance this year with Albert & let it pass. If one can accept that....and understand that this Bills FO has focused on the OL outside the draft....I for the life of me can see no reason why all the angst & venom about the situation.

20% That's the odds(at best) of finding a starting OLman from the 4th/5th rounds!!!! Why does everyone think that starters for the OL are easier to find than every other position? Where do you find star LTs? Apart from Peters......drafted in the top 7 of the draft. Where do you find most solid starters at OG? The 1st round.....Every 1st round OG in the past 15 years has had at least a solid starters career. It's a reasonable argument to put forward that we should have drafted Albert instead of McKelvin(though not many are saying this if any).......it's a ridiculous argument to get your knickers in a twist over the fact that we didn't draft an OLman in the 4th-6th rounds. I wonder......if we had drafted Jeremy Zuttah(only OL drafted within 23 picks of Ellis) instead of Chris Ellis, would everyone be all 'the sky is falling' because we didn't get a backup DE in the 3rd?

Uggg....oops.....I started the list looking at the OGs......and by the time I finished them I forgot I hadn't added the OTs & Cs. Sincerest apologies. Firstly, I saw no point in finding the odds of obtaining a backup OLman. We have a top backup C starting at the moment.....also at worst a top backup OG starting. We need a better starter at C(& maybe RG)....not backups for them. At OT we have good starters so I wasn't actually too interested in the OTs anyway. Who knows how good the incumbent backup OTs are....management seem content to stay with them......& I tend to trust Bill about his assessment on Chambers in that he did a fine job last season. Anyway....Let's try again.....there may be a better percentage this time..... (I figure some players possibly should be highlighted.....but some who start due to no talent shouldn't.....this I guess will roughly even out) OGs....3 out of 25(12%) OCs....5 out of 16(31%) OTs....6 out of 32(19%) Total....14 out of (19%) Honestly, this is probably a decent percentage for 4th/5th round picks.....a 1 in 5 chance of getting a starter. That is my point BTW......that for some reason the sky is falling because we didn't draft an OLman in the 4th or 5th rounds. At some point one just has to assume that the coaches are happy with the backup talent level......or were willing to take the injuries risk due to better prospects at other positions when they were picking. Either way I don't understand all of this discourse over a mid-round draft pick. 4th & 5th rounders(2000-2005).....bold denotes those whose skills translated directly to the NFL Guards 2000 Michael Thompson Michael Moore Matt Johnson Richard Mercier 2001 Bill Ferrerio Floyd Womack Victor Leyva Matt Lehr Russ Hochstein 2002 Martin Bibla Travis Scott Edward Ta'amu Jonathan Goodwin 2003 Montrae Holland - This guy has done OK....injury prone journeyman Ben Sobieski David Diehl Sean Mahan - starter after 3 years 2004 Trey Darilek Jacob Bell Jeb Terry 2005 Dan Buenning - started rookie season....didn't play a down last year Elton Brown Dylan Gandy Claude Terrell Scott Young Centers 2000 2001 Roberto Garza - starter after 4 years Ben Hamilton Chukky Okabi 2002 Scott Peters 2003 Austin King Ryan Pontbriand Ben Claxton Dan Koppen 2004 Alex Stepanovich - started as rookie but....injury prone(?) Eric Ghiaciuc Duke Preston Jason Brown Junius Coston Drew Hodgdon Robert Hunt Geoff Hangartner Tackles 2000 Kaulana Noa Cooper Carlisle - starter after 6 years Joey Chustz Greg Robinson-Randall Tutan Reyes 2001 Kenyatta Jones Mathias Nkwent Ryan Diem Elliot Silvers Bernard Robertson Marques Sullivan Shawn Draper 2002 Matt Hill 2003 Brett Williams Steve Sciullo Lance Nimmo Jordan Black Tony Pashos - starter after 4 years 2004 Nat Dorsey Stacy Andrews - starter after 4 years Adrian Jones Jake Scott Mark Wilson Sean Bubin 2005 Ray Willis David Stewart Todd Herremans Daniel Loper Adam Kieft Anthony Alabi Frank Omiyale Wesley Britt

You're just making this up as you go along..... What do we call mid round? For the sake of discussion I'm going with rounds 4 & 5 since 1-3 are early and 6 & 7 obviously late. 4th & 5th rounders(2000-2005).....bold denotes those whose skills translated directly to the NFL 3 out of 25(12%) 2000 Michael Thompson Michael Moore Matt Johnson Richard Mercier 2001 Bill Ferrerio Floyd Womack Victor Leyva Matt Lehr Russ Hochstein 2002 Martin Bibla Travis Scott Edward Ta'amu Jonathan Goodwin 2003 Montrae Holland - This guy has done OK....injury prone journeyman Ben Sobieski David Diehl Sean Mahan - starter after 3 years 2004 Trey Darilek Jacob Bell Jeb Terry 2005 Dan Buenning - started rookie season....didn't play a down last year Elton Brown Dylan Gandy Claude Terrell Scott Young

If there was an applaud smiley I'd be putting it here. Very maturely handled.

Extremely doubtful that we can find a player from the June 1 cuts to make an impact......has there ever been an impact player cut post June 1? We could well find some decent OL depth from the June 1 cuts though.

.....and you'd be correct. From 1998-2007(10 years) Colts....1x2nd & 1x3rd Bills....1x1st & 2x3rd To be fair though in 1997 they drafted long time starters Glenn & Meadows in the 1st & 2nd.....and used a 2nd on C this last draft making 1997-2008(12 years) Colts....1/3/1 Bills....1/0/2 Personally I don't see any benefit in looking at what teams use their early draft picks on. If a team is successful in their first attempt(i.e. Glenn for the Colts), they may not need to draft that position again early in the draft for over a decade. Conversely if a team is unsuccessful in drafting at a certain position they can end up drafting that positions many times before they land a good starter(i.e. Rams DL...5x1st rounders in last 8 drafts). That being said, until recently the Bills have not had any decent players on the OL for years except for Ruben Brown.....I think it can be safely said that for the most part the OL has been badly ignored for years. That is not to say that it makes any sense to 'make up' for past inequities by gratuitously drafting OLmen now. We have a pro-bowl LT. We have very solid/good LG & RT. We have a young RG who may get the job done. Having chosen not to draft Albert in the 1st round, I can't see what difference drafting a 4th round OLman would have made to this upcoming season.....certainly he couldn't be expected to be an instant starter(Center).....and doubtful to become a quality backup in rookie year. To me there seems to be a lot of fuss over basically nothing.

I think this year we'll see whether he is just a very good solid player.....or an elite player. Having him blossom into a star would be great but I'd certainly be content with a very good solid player. People should really try not to over-value what is expected from every decent draft pick......and try not to under-value the benefits of a very good solid player.

If a tree falls on a mime in the woods and no one is around......does anyone care?

Saw it last night.......enjoyed muchly! ....and was a pretty good movie as well. BTW, A Captain America movie is in production & is scheduled(at this point) for 2009.

I think you are allowing your dislike of the drafting strategy to affect your thoughts on the coaching situation......as well as your thoughts on where DJ, Marv & the FO have truly shown what they value. You are acting a bit blinded to the actual situation. The draft is only one aspect to building a team.......and perhaps the strategy employed by the Bills of late has been to make sure they maximize the impact of their rookies(i.e. draft positions which can contribute right away).....and lock up established veterans at the 'important' positions. When you look at every single decent contract(FA Acquisition & re-signing) it is all DL & OL. All of the money has been pumped into those positions(apart from Mitchell). Schobel, Kelsay, Stroud, Johnson, Tripplett, Peters, Dockery, Walker. The only 'small' players given any decent contract have been Parrish, Moreman & Lindell......all great ST contributors. I look at the OL in a similar manner to yourself. I scratch my head & say "We are weak at C. We have no depth." But then I remember 3 drafts ago thinking "We need a LT" and didn't draft one & guess what? We ended up having a future pro-bowl LT on the roster. I remember thinking 2 seasons ago "We need a better OL" and guess what? We spent mega$$$ on LG & RT. I remember just a few months back thinking "We desperately need a DT next to McCargo(& depth)" & guess what? We landed a 3xprobowler DT & a good rotational DT. Simply focusing on the draft is not indicative of how the GMs, FO & HC have managed the personnel on this team. So far they have steadily built a team in all areas(particularly D) and shown several times that what may be 'apparent' is not necessarily so. I personally trust the FO enough now not to yell "idiots" when they make decisions that I cannot see the exact reasons for.

I agree with Obie wans point about the OL.....that should have been in the top 6 things to address in the off-season. Also....I would think that by addressing points.... 2. Improve our interior DL. 4. Add some depth to our secondary. and 5. Add some nastiness and experience. we would naturally achieve 3. Improve our Pass Rush.

There is a difference in say that "DJ is not a top caliber NFL head coach" to saying that "DJ is a terrible NFL head coach". To those saying he is a terrible coach I say "That is just your unfounded opinion." To those saying he is a top caliber coach I say "That is just your unfounded opinion." At this point in time he has proven that he is not terrible......but has in no way proven that he is 'top caliber'.

I tend to agree with you.....things could be setting up nicely for Parrish this year.

I hate to do this but.....yeah he was a starter. 16 games. Not that I think it detracts from your point.....we were still riddled with injuries on the D all season....but I'm a stickler for accuracy.

Looks like you & I may have similar tastes. Comic book movies I thought were good(worth seeing).......recent times. Spider-man 1 X-Men 1 & 2 Sin City V for Vendetta Batman Begins Hellboy I liked Hulk & DD as well but don't count these as good movies for the genre. I'm seeing Iron Man tomorrow night......ooooh, can't wait......well I guess I can since I'm not going today but you know what I mean.

How is it you can be shown that your perceptions are incorrect time & again & yet still persist with the fallacy? 1999.....draft McNown.....he was a bust. No bad there since at least 3 in 4 1st round QBs(not including #1 overall) are busts. 2001.....Goes with Miller who does pretty good.....but gets injured. By this stage(2002) he has no say in personnel decisions & had to go with Chandler(who was so old he had gray pubes). In comes the useless Stewart in 2003. How do you get "Jauron pulled the trigger to bring in bad, brittle, and bust QBs to lead his team" from that history? In Buffalo he started the incumbent(JPL)......and drafted a very promising young QB(TE).....he has not had any time to show one way or the other with the Bills. I couldn't care less if you think DJ is a terrible coach(personally I am withholding judgment for now).....but to continually put forward BS statements even after they are thoroughly refuted is annoying.

But the reality is different..... e.g. 2001 1st round Only 9 of the 31 players are still with their original teams(29%).....and that was within 7 seasons. It may be important as you say to keep them but the reality is there are many factors in todays NFL which sees a majority move to different teams. Michael Vick - out of the league Leonard Davis - Moved Gerard Warren - Moved Justin Smith - Moved LaDainian Tomlinson - Stayed Richard Seymour - Stayed Andre Carter - Moved David Terrell - Moved Koren Robinson - Moved Jamal Reynolds - Moved....out of league Dan Morgan - Stayed Damione Lewis - Moved Marcus Stroud - Moved Kenyatta Walker - Stayed Rod Gardner - Moved Santana Moss - Moved Steve Hutchinson - Moved Jeff Backus - Stayed Casey Hampton - Stayed Adam Archuleta - Moved Nate Clements - Moved Will Allen - Moved Deuce McAllister - Stayed Willie Middlebrooks - Moved Freddie Mitchell - Out of League Jamar Fletcher - Moved Michael Bennett - Moved Derrick Gibson - Out of League Ryan Pickett - Moved Reggie Wayne - Stayed Todd Heap - Stayed

Most coaches are saddled with QB problems. It is the minority that find the 'QB of the future' and progress forward with solid QB play for the next decade+......most teams keep on looking year after year for that stability. To say DJs situation regarding QBs was anything other than standard in the NFL is misguided.

It would be a fairly small percent(25%?) that actually end up doing that. Perhaps one should expect what is the norm.....but hope for better. BTW BBB.....I agree with the others......top post.

Though I somewhat agree with your point in that sometimes it happens that a team gives up too early on a QB.....there are other times where a QB shows quite early that he will never become even a decent NFL starter. The worst situation IMO is to have a QB that does OK and keeps showing signs that they will improve....but never does. Banks, Plummer, Griese, etc, etc. The team in this situation continues to keep faith in their QB when they would be better off trying a new one.....basically the opposite of your scenario. Throughout DJs HC career though I cannot see how he relates to your point anyway. DJ started at the Bears in 1999. They drafted McNown in the 1st round(1999). Was given 2 seasons & showed in that time he was obviously never going to become a decent NFL QB......he never played a game in the NFL after 2000. In 2001 they went with Miller who played OK for 2 years. Miller however was in his 9th season in 2001 & had very little play prior to that and had previously been suspended under the NFL drug policy. Miller was injured at the end of the season. In 2002 the 16 year vet Chandler showed himself to be the better option over the 10 year injury affected Miller. Obviously neither QB was the guy to lead the team into the future.....Miller not playing after 2002 & Chandler seeing minimal action in his last season 2004. In 2003(DJs last with the Bears) they brought in a FA who had shown some things in the past.....Kordell Stewart. This didn't work as this 9 year vet was well past his prime. Over to Buffalo in 2006 he gave every snap to JPL & though QBR was good there were some glaring signs that he may not become the QB they hoped for. In 2007 they drafted a Edwards in the 3rd who showed a lot of promise in pre-season. JPL was started & remained the starter until he was injured. Edwards obviously ended up showing more promise than JPL did and finished the season as the designated starter. Unless your argument is specifically about giving up too quickly on JPL there is nothing in DJs HC career that supports what you say.

This is a very interesting point though I believe you are simplifying things too much. The buck obviously stops with the HC......therefore any major deficiencies in any coaching area are the fault of the HC. This is true, however there seemed to me to be additional elements last season for me to really want to see what happens on O this season. If you recall, at some point last season.......after every man & his dog was calling for a less conservative offense.....the players were quoted as saying that during practice they were practicing lots of exciting and different plays however none of those plays that they practiced were called on game days. This implies to me that orders were given to 'open up' the offense. Those orders came obviously from the HC. The plays were practiced till the players were ready to perform them on the field....under the watchful gaze of DJ. Come game day, DJ has no say in what plays do or don't get called. Perhaps DJs biggest fault in this area may be that he is too loyal to those that he has delegated some of his authority. Perhaps where you or I may have fired SF mid-season and gone ad hoc for the remainder, DJ chose to either trust his OCs opinions or thought it more detrimental to switch mid-season. Either way it is a different situation to the one you are imagining.