McD

Everything BUT #5 seems pretty much on target. Our pass rush was DISGUSTING!

There have been a lot of non media darlings with surly personalities to get inducted...it should be on their overall on the field performance, not a populartity contest. Unfortunately the way the selection process goes IT IS a populartity contest. I know it's not the same sport, but look at a guy like Ty Cobb...there might not have been a more surly bastard to ever play the game, but he was part of the innagural HOF class. I want a guy to be fired up, I want a guy to stand up for what's right...it's just too bad they have guys with little striped shirts and little yellow flags that dictate the play AND the sportsmanship, even if their sh------- NON-calls are what's creating the attitude.

I can't TOTALLY disagree, but have you ever played sports? And if you did, did you ever play with that much heart and passion? I agree dumb penalty, but he was clearly beyond himself...the guy was getting molested on EVERY play and nothing was being called. It was out of sheer frustration that he acted the way he did. I still play ball with as much passion...people still complain and they're not anywhere near the competitive level or pressure that Reed was on then. Sad you judge a man's entire career on a single play, but that's yours to deal with.

Good points, but to be fair Reed would not have caught all of those balls. Let's take Kelly's lifetime comp% (60%) to that total and we get approx 450 balls...now lets assume Reed has 25% thrown his way, and he catches 90% of those. That equates top approx 100 more receptions for Reed in the same "style" offense. Now he would have more receptions than Carter. Where the bigger discrepancy is in TD's as even Reed would maybe pick up and additional 10 TD's to his totals using his (approx) 1 TD per reception rate. That give him close to 100 TD's but still short of Carters 130 (but again, carter got more deep balls tossed his way too). Of course Reed would pick up an additional 1,390 yds too, giving him 14,588 and ahead giving him the nod over Carter...oh and let's not forget Reed's 500 rushing yds to Cater's 41 yds Honestly though...this is like asking which is better.. Pizza or Wings? It's not even fun to debate because they're both awesome! Lol.

Just for fun..here are some of the "greats" Reed has played with at QB for the Bills. I didn't include his year in Washington. The bolded players started at QB at some point that year (I didn't highlight them again if they satered again in later years), the others played at least a down. Damn, there are some real winners on that list, lol! 1985: Vince Ferragamo (9), Bruce Mathison (7), Frank Reich 1986: Jim Kelly*, Frank Reich 1987#: Jim Kelly (12), Dan Manucci (1), Brian McClure (1), Willie Totten (1), Mark Miller 1988: Jim Kelly*, Frank Reich 1989: Jim Kelly (13) Frank Reich (3) 1990: Jim Kelly (14), Frank Reich (2), Gale Gilbert 1991: Jim Kelly (15) Frank Reich (1) 1992: Jim Kelly*, Frank Reich 1993: Jim Kelly*, Frank Reich, Gale Gilbert 1994: Jim Kelly (14) Frank Reich (2) 1995: Jim Kelly (15), Todd Collins (1) Alex Van Pelt 1996: Jim Kelly (13), Todd Collins (3) Alex Van Pelt 1997: Todd Collins (13) Alex Van Pelt (3) Billy Jo Hobert 1998: Doug Flutie (10), Rob Johnson (6), Alex Van Pelt 1999: Doug Flutie (15), Rob Johnson (1), Alex Van Pelt

Understood, now tell me who were the preiminent WR's during their heyday? Rice, Reed, Carter..? These guys stood out as the best of the best consistently. Of course just about every player will fall down a list they are on as other players play the game...that's a fact of the game. Does that mean we should take guys out of the Hall because they've been surpassed? Hell no...their stats during their Era's play a huge part in that process. It sucks that WR's have to wait such a long time as there is so many game-changing guys out there. I do believe that Reed will get in, but it might have to be during a year that there isn't another good candidate. It sucks we have to play the political game on this. If they're deserving, they should get in without worrying about how many other WR's are up that year. Can you imagine the decision of the Hall if Kelly, Elway and Marino all retired the same year?!?!?!?!

Carter is Hall worthy...I never said he wasn't and I don't think anyone could, but all the "experts" point to Carter deserving to go in before Reed. I don't think it's the case. They both have to be looked at for more than just straight stats. Look behind the stats. There's more to them than what you see. Case in point...when the Bills were 4-0 this year and everyone was all happy, I knew better. I kept saying this wasn't a true 4-0 team...they've gotten by with smoke and mirrors and guess what? I was right. Now I'm not saying Carter's career was a sham, far from it. But, what you see isn't all telling right up front.

Case hardly closed...Carter caught a WHOPPING 8 passes more a year than Reed...that's what an extra catch every other game? Wow...you're right that's ENORMOUS! Think of how many games the Bills were just running clock in the last qtr of games. We wont even talk about Carters offense or the Dome he played in...JEESH! TD's, lets not even go there...you know the Bills pounded the rock WAY more than the Vikings so of course his stats would be bloated a bit there. Why did you ignore the posts about their resective showings in the playoffs? Hmm....???

Dude your getting silly...I hear you and agree Reed wasn't the best ever, but damn, please come to the table with a better argument. I think we can both agree that Reed played in more of a RUN first offense than Carter...I think we can both agree that Carter had a better supporting WR cast for the majority of his career. Carter was a terrific WR, but he couldn't do was Andre did, which was run across the middle...take a 5 yd pass and turn it upfield for huge gains. Carter ran great routes and caught a lot of balls on the sidelines, and down field...I have no issue with that at all, but Reed was something special because of that, he could run outs, stretch the field AND run across the middle. Not many WR's in the Hall could compare. Let's also throw in a VERY big fact that Carter played in a DOME for most of his career!! Carter didn't have it great with Salisbury or McMahon, but they didn't play with him long and neither had a complete season with him. Also he never played a down with Wade Wilson! Please dont pretend that Warren Moon or Randall Cuningham couldn't throw the rock, you're embarrassing yourself. They both had great passing stats in the years that they played with Carter. Also, please tell me a Chris carter game that stands out for you? I can't remember a single catch of his. Look, both theses guys are deserving of the Hall...their stats are pretty similar...Carter has a slight statistical advantage, but considering the offensive schemes he played on (pass happy), and the conditions (Dome), AND the fact the guy NEVER exposed himself across the middle of the field, a case can be made for Reed ahead of Carter this Hall ballot. Will it happen? Probably not, and that's too bad. Stats are a HUGE part of the selection process, but it shouldn't be all telling, and it's not in this case...Reed was a better all around weapon.

As I stated, it still has it's merits, but it's been improved upon and therefore my response was to enlighten those that there are better team building concepts/practices out there. I think we can agree that the basic concept is pretty much the same across the board as it deals with human nature.

RIP

Not to put a damper on this, but this "team building" concept is now outdated...it surely has it's merits, but even we in the military have moved past this concept about 5 years ago.

Damn, too bad you don't remember it...it was CLASSIC! I have that in my head for eternity, lol!!! What a DUMBASS he was...ha, ha, ha!!

To speak to my point...I'm NOT happy with Jauron as coach, however, if we had a better pass rush, I think we would have beaten Mia and NYJ at least once each, and beaten the Niners and Browns. That's possibly a four game swing with a single area to upgrade. Now that was THIS year, where we had an easy schedule. Next year we need Dick (cause he's here whether we like it or not) to better his game management, a better pash rush and O-line upgrades (at a minimum cause we need LB and TE help too). Even then we only see a 2-3 game improvement tops.

What?!?!?!?!

Steve, Nice job with the stats...I now there not ALL indicative, but there are interesting nonetheless. One glaring thing that stands out is the lack of pass rush indeed. The lack of a pash rush was a factor on 50% or better of Bills losses. Throw in AT LEAST 2-3 more wins with a better pass rush...and that's WITH Tricky Dick at the helm. Dick is a safe, bland coach, but not a good game mgr. If he could get WAAAY better in that area, we get a pass rush and a bit of upgrade on the O-line too and we might see some decent improvement.

Actually that should have LOST to us TWICE! If Trent doesn't throw the pick 6 and we get a FG there, thats a 10 pt swing in a game we lost by 9. The JEST aren't that much better than we were this year.

Ralphie doesn't speak "whateverittakestowinese", he only speaks "frugalese". Because of that, nobody worth his coaching salt will listen or understand him enough to consider the Bills.

We couldn't get that lucky...

I'm not referring to the DB making a play....Walker never turned the corner. He just ran straight down the sideline. How are we supposed to gain yardage when we're run blocking "AT" the line as opposed to "UP"field? If your fist block comes 2-3 yds upfield, you'll be surprised at how much better your run O will be. You're correct on his limitations...the big man might need to drop 20 lbs and work some more on his footwork and technique...he should be murdering LBs/DB's on those plays.

Awesome stories!

Did any of you happen to see that when we ran right, and had Walker pulling, he never turns the corner? He just keeps running towards the sideline, allowing the defense to penetrate to and past the line of scrimmage. I'm wondering if this is just a technique thing or if he's brain farting on the plays? Anyone else catch it? I wonder if it's something correctible? It would be nice to be able to scoot outside once in awhile.

Wow...what an absolute WONDERFUL story!

Yeah I guess huh? Because THAT'S what I meant.

Wish we had Hardy now....