slipkid

You forgot the 90-yard opening drive, but maybe you were only talking about the drives after the 20-7 lead.

I'll add that he was probably the hairiest Buffalo Bills player in history.

Nope. Not exactly. I'm saying that Fitz must have had control of the ball when he stopped drawing his arm backward. Otherwise, the ball would have gone backward. As I read the rule, once control is established at the end of the windup, "any intentional movement of his hand starts a forward pass." Although the rule doesn't explicitly say so, I suspect that the movement should be forward. Nope. I am claiming it was a pass once he displayed control at the end of his windup. There's the rub! I may be wrong and don't want to misrepresent you, but your point seems to be that he lost control during his windup. I am saying that it didn't look like that to me. Ultimately, regardless of what we think we saw, he had to have control of the ball at the end of the windup in order for the ball to have ended up going forward. If he did not have control at the end of his windup, the ball would have at least rolled off his fingertips . . . backward. The ball went forward which means he had to have stopped the backward movement of the ball. That's where I am claiming "Physics!" in my pseudo-intelligent manner. I didn't mean that the hand doesn't need to be moving forward. I meant that he does not have to have control of the ball as the hand moves forward. Somewhat unrelated, I think we've both seen some pretty ugly balls slip out of Fitz's hands. He's susceptible to calls like this. As MDH/Hal pointed out, though, I fear that this is quickly becoming an unhealthy obsession. especially with Pats* coming to town in a couple days. I'll save everyone my rants now.

The ball went forward. That, and the laws of physics. In order to stop the backward motion of the ball as he drew his arm back, he must have had control of the ball until at least that point. Physics! You stated in an earlier post that "Until the arm starts moving forward with control of the ball, it's not a forward pass." According to the rule book, you are simply incorrect: "When a player is in control of the ball and attempting to pass it forward, any intentional movement of his hand starts a forward pass." His hand does not have to be moving forward with the ball. Once he establishes control, as he did by stopping the backward movement of the ball, "any intentional movement of his hand starts a forward pass," which would include his fingertips. The "empty hand" rule only applies when there is contact with an opponent. I guess you and the replay officials saw Fitz flailing his arms at the ball and accidentally knocking it forward. That's not what I saw. Thanks for the link, by the way; the link I posted was getting old.

Nope. No "cherry-picking" on my part. Check my previous post. This reference to "control" (the only reference to "control" in the section discussing the forward pass) is clearly in the context of a.) contact by an opposing player, b.) the tuck rule, or c.) recocking the arm. None of those conditions are applicable to the call at hand. Ultimately, I guess this is where you and I won't ever come to agree on this play. He sure looked like he was passing to me.

Well, the post may be articulate and awfully confident, but it's incorrect. The argument relies entirely too much on some subjective notion of "control" that it assumes is the overriding factor in determing the differerence between a forward pass and a fumble. The NFL rule book does not rely on "control" that much. In fact, the only reference to the passer being "in control" is in the context of a.) contact by an opposing player, b.) the tuck rule and c.) recocking the arm. None of those factors was present during the play in question. Thus, that play should be determined by the definition of a forward pass--"the ball first strikes the ground, a player, an official, or anything else at a point that is nearer the opponent's goal line than at the point at which it leaves the passer's hand(s)." Even if one wants to rely on some vague notion of control, they must simultaneously acknowledge that "any intentional movement of his hand starts a forward pass." So, I guess by discussion board standards it was a solid post in that it was cocky and a little snarky. In terms of accuracy and understanding the NFL rules, though, it wasn't so great.

Thanks for the lesson, I guess, but it really isn't all that "straightforward." I took a look. Rule 8: Forward Pass, Backward Pass, Fumble Article 1 Definition. It is a forward pass if: a.) the ball initially moves forward (to a point nearer the opponent's goal line) after leaving the passer's hands; or b.) the ball first strikes the ground, a player, an official, or anything else at a point that is nearer the opponent's goal line than at the point at which it leaves the passer's hand(s). To be fair, after a note, what follows is a reference to what you seem, to be implying about the passer being "in control." When a player is in control of the ball and attempting to pass it forward, any intentional movement of his hand starts a forward pass. There is an (a), (b), and © after that. a.) deals with "contact by an opponent", b.) is the tuck rule, and c.) is about "recocking" the arm. None of which are applicable to this call I guess you're giving more credit to the "control of the ball" than I am, and I may be giving more credit to the definition. I will note that "control of the ball" is located in a subordinate clause to the meat of that sentence--"any intentional movement of his hand starts a forward pass." Edit: I forgot the link. http://static.nfl.com/static/content/public/image/rulebook/pdfs/11_2012_ForwardPass_BackPass_Fumble.pdf

I guess you know the rule better than I do. Does it say that somehow the ball can go forward without being in his hand? If it's about "control," which part of the hand must be in "control"? The part that made the ball go forward? I thought the rule was if the hand has the ball and is moving forward, it is an incomplete pass.

Yep. An incomplete pass. Definitely putrid but not a fumble.

It was windy.

Correct, perhaps. But unless the rule says "the palm" must be in contact, it was a bad call. I'm fairly certain "the hand" was responsible for the ball going forward almost twenty feet.

Back to the topic. That call sent the NFL back 500 years. Ask Isaac Newton.

Who was in the booth? The President of the Flat-Earth Society?

Good question. Isaac Newton and the Laws of Physics be damned, we have replacement refs!

Speaking of McLovin's special teams play and injury, is spearing still a penalty in the NFL?

I did not shower. I felt okay all game but, about midway through the fourth quarter, I realized that I was not fresh. Sorry. It won't happen again.

There you go again, using your mouth as if it were an onus.

I have heard, in fact, that he has several close friends best described as "rowdy." Every week or so--i cannot recall the specific evening--he has them over.

Hate . . . As others have mentioned, the fox robot--I knew he was a drunk--and touchdown, commercial break, kickoff touchback, commercial break, run over left side for two yards, end of quarter commercial break. Trumpy. A slightly paraphrased quote from an early 1990's Bills game: "Steve Christie is from Canada. I LOVE Canada. I took my son fishing there once." Enjoy . . . Enberg, when he babbles nonsensically. A direct quote: "The Chiefs are really staking their thrust in the offense this year."

Coaches: Jimmy Johnson (pure slime) Don Shula (I'm proud to say I was kicked out of Shula's Steakhouse in Baltimore several years ago for telling the bartender exactly what I thought of that self-aggrandizing, ref-owning dirt.) Players: Jim Kiick (while playing) Mercury Morris (now--He almost made me root for New England to win out last year.)

Hmmmm . . . I have many on the list but not all--my father would have never worn a fedora. I have one of my own, though. You remember chanting "Get Hadl dirty!"

I'll play. Current: Takeo Spikes. He wanted to come to Buffalo and has suffered as much for that sentiment as I do every year. All Time: Funny, but I still like Jerry Butler. There are at least twenty more, including Ferguson, tied for second.

All time: Fouts is a second to Kenny Stabler, but I'm glad he got on this list. Art Shell and Alan Paige rate up there, too. Current: I hate to go with a kicker, but Adam Vinatieri has some guts to spare.

He's Too Hot Ta Trott.