Red_Tory

If the Bills are having trouble attracting fans how about heading an hour and a half up into Canada? 4th or 5th largest market in North America - maybe the Bills could actually tap into that market for averyone's mutual benefit, heck maybe play a game a year there....oh wait....

Ok, so first of all dont shoot the messenger. Am 37 and a lifelong Bills fan. Ive Seen the bad, then the great, then the absolutely horrible. Dont want to see the Bills leave WNY, no way. However, need to clear up a couple of points that I keep seeing made on here that make some assumptions that arent correct in the case for the Bills staying in WNY. 1) I have seen it posted that the Bills somehow "have Canadian football fans" - this just is no longer accurate. There are more NFL fans here than ever before, but for a number of reasons not least of which has been the Bills awful performance for the last decade, and just that its now so much easier for fans in any region of North America to follow the team of their choice. So the Bills actually dont have that going for them, cannot assumme the TO and Canadian markets belong to the Bills anymore. NFL execs see the numbers and correctly feel a home team here would see the tap turn on even more, ie the Toronto Blue Jays in MLB. 2) "Rogers Centre not up to NFL standards" - while this is certainly true, its also true that basically for the first time in the history of pro sports, stadium size and facilities matter the least they ever have from the standpoint of a franchise's bottom line. So the argument that TO ownership group would need a new stadium just doesnt hold water. If the NFL sees the books and business plan that shows the added $$$ the league stands to earn, I guarantee you know one cares if the stadiums capacity is 55,000 or 70,000. And contrary to comments on here all the time, the owners also wont care if the fans that show up tend to be quiet, sit on their hands and arent as knowledgable about football as most NFL fans from traditional markets - because the money they bring to the table is worth every bit as much. 3) "Bills leaving Buffalo would leave a black mark on the NFL" - this just in: none of the people involved in making these decisions care because they know long term there will be no lasting negative consequences, and theres just too much money at stake here. MLB strike in '94 left a black mark on the game, and now MLB revenue is at an all time high. Cleveland was devasted when the Browns left, but what happend? NFL kept selling out and when they had a chance to acquire a new team for Cleveland locals literally jumped at the chance. As long as the money keeps rolling in no one cares about fans and effect on a community etc etc. Sucks, but its true. I just dont think the size and dollars of the Toronto and Canadian market can be understated in this debate. Profit for the owners is the only thing that matters. I want to see the Bills stay in Buffalo - if the Bills move to Toronto I cant guarantee I would still cheer for them. I would just feel awful about the loss to Buffalo area fans, and I can assure you most of the locals here I root for the Bills with would feel the same. If the team were to move to LA, no question I would divorce myself from the organization. Work with the Rogers folks, try and make the best of the Bills in Toronto series and realize while its not ideal that working with TO is your absolute best bet of keeping our beloved Bills where they belong. Look at the chance to visit TO once or twice a year as a great opportunity to see a city you dont live in, visit with Bills fans from a different background that share your passion for the Bills - when you think about it, to a lesser scale this is exactly what Bills fans in WNY ask of the 15-20% of fans at each game in Orchard Park that travel over the border from Canada. Just the view from the cheap seats, Cheers, Chris

Well, there we have found something we can agree on: your comment certainly was simple. Cheers, Chris

Say Chris - I wouldnt want to give the impression the London, Ontario area is full of Bills fans any longer. So I dont think he was trying to score points with Bills fans, to me he just sounded sincere. Spoke fondly of his time in the CFL (which given the audience may have been a PR consideration), and focused on his return to the NFL in Buffalo. I wont deny the guy is a huge self promoter, but this did seem real to me. Cheers, Chris

Again, went out of my way to try and avoid getting into this tired old discussion - pretty sure this thread wasnt about our views on past QBs, but on their views on the fans. if you dont want a former player speaking positively about the Bills, thats totally your call of course.

I was listening to my beloved University of Western Ontario Mustangs on the radio two weeks ago for their season opener, and Doug Flutie happened to be at the game. Sideline reporter was able to grab him for an on air conversation. Now I have no interest in starting a discussion about the merits of Doug Flutie as a Bill, but he had absolutely nothing but extremely positive things to say about the city of Buffalo and his time as a member of the Bills. Called Bills fans the best fans in the NFL. Talked about how the fans deserve a winner, and that the organization is moving in the right direction. Cheers, Chris

New York Knights Asst Coach to the Manager after Roy Hobbs arrives: "Can I speak to you for a moment?" Pop Fisher, Knights Manager: "We don't need any middle aged rookies on this team". Asst Coach: "well, we sure need something". -The Natural I mean we could sign Andre Reed in his prime and this is still a 3-13 team this year. Anyway, im going back to bed to nurse this hangover. Cheers, Chris

Yeah, I mean I can't disagree with you, that's obviously correct. We did let Lee Evans go for basically nothing. I suppose this is just a desperate cry for help on my part. In 3rd Q of the Bills-Lions game here on the NFL Network. It's too early for scotch, so need to talk this out. Just recall from my standpoint how fun it was to be able to root for the local kid when Tindale would be called upon to lead block for Thurman. Sam Gash was the main FB at the time. Just reminiscing about how it was 'back in the day'. Loved those type of players. Think what I need is a support group for Bills fans suffering emotional trauma. Chris

Ok, so disclaimer right off the bat, generally speaking I don't spend much time reading threads where a fan is suggesting the Bills front office sign a FA, or try and trade for a player. I am not a scout, don't pretend to have any idea what makes a player a success in the NFL, or how to identify that skill set. But I sure like what I have seen out of WR Andy Fantuz. Having said that, more than a decade ago I had the same feelings about a blocking full back and special teams guy named Tim Tindale. Watching him play up here at Western he was just about always the absolute best player on any field he took. You may recall he had a solid few years with the Bills. Certainly not a star, but blue collar guy who brought his lunch box to work everyday and gave us Bills fans all he had every Sunday. I see the Bears released WR Andy Fantuz yesterday. I would just love to see the Bills give this guy a chance. He was an absolute joy to watch for 5 years at the University of Western Ontario, ended his collegiate career owning just about every offensive record in the book. He's a proven winner having won a Vanier Cup here, and a Grey Cup as well. Has 3 or 4 years as a starter in the CFL. He's the most talented pure football player I have had the pleasure of watching up here. That includes former Super Bowl winner, WR Tyrone Williams. Just my $0.02 worth from the cheap seats. Cheers, Chris

JW, Fair enough, maybe you guys are right. Though I certainly am not alone in the view that it's no longer as friendly and welcoming an environment at Orchard Park to those of us making the trek from the TO area as it was back in the day. I don't think that's a minority view up here, either. Having said that, perhaps as I age, and my priorities change, it may just be natural to move away from these events. As an example, packed the wife, baby and my Dad up a few weeks back and travelled to Cooperstown to watch the Robbie Alomar induction. Now that was an incredible experience, people couldn't have been any more kind. Bills games just aren't an environment I would feel comfortable bringing the baby to, and that's not a criticism of Bills fans. I wouldn't take her to an Argos CFL game either. Anyways, im a longtime lurker here at TBD, read a lot of theses threads and messages, but almost never post. In and of itself perhaps you're right that one message in which it's stated that "Canadian football fans suck" is not worth taking exception to. On the other hand, perhaps the frustration has been building over time. All of that aside - Bills belong in Buffalo, and the fans deserve a winner. Cheers, CB

I am a hige Jays fan. I'd like to be able to tell you the atmosphere was a lot better back in the day, but really the only difference would be attributable to the fact that from '89 when it opened, until the strike, it was sold out almost every night. Its also fun when the Evil Empire or the Champions of all New England visit town - their fans tend to take over the stadium, and good natured interaction can be counted on. Makes the experience fun. TO is just not a basbeall town. Fans will come out, but basically it has to be viewed as the in thing to do. I like the direction the organization is moving in, and think the team will be competitive in 2013. But look, it's not a football town either. However it is a huge market, most of it filled with people with more money than brains, and i say that in a good natured way. A lot of these people need a 'home team' to support. The clear natural fit to fill that need are the Bills in Buffalo.

JW - I dont think I protest enough. Obviously the Bills are convinced there is no problem - but in your own post, where you point out that Rogers Centre often has fans of visiting teams in the seats is the best argument yet for my case. Rogers Centre is clearly not ideal for the NFL. It's not even good for baseball, no question. In fairness it was also designed in the mid 80's, and the focus was on the concept of a retractable roof. About 10 mins after SkyDome opened we started to see a new era of old school style parks in Baltimore and Arlington. unfortunate timing. On the other hand NFL isnt really a 'bums in the seats' driven leaugue. As for the fan base in TO - things are different than when I grew up. I could watch either the Bills here on tv, or the Lions or Browns. Now all that's changed. Expanded coverage makes it much easier to be a fan of the team of ones choosing. We can interact with fans of other teams quite easily. news about teams is readil available. It's easy to be a fan now. TO fans will never be the raise the roof off the stadium types - but they do show up, and they do support the team purchasing merchandise etc. If the seats at Rogers Centre arent filled with Bills fans - thats on the organization. It's not like we are born with an obligation to cheer for the Bills. And i certainly wont miss also the constant digs at the Maple Leafs. Dave - of course not. But the experience for me has been going downhill pretty steadily since Flutie and 9/11. I am just saying, its a free country and based on the quality of my last few experiences, its time for me to move along to something else. It used to be a great road trip. And its purely a Buffalo thing. I still can enjoy a Tigers or Indians baseball game - even wearing a Jays cap, no one treats me like ive brought the plague with me. Cheers, Chris

Why does TBD allow posts like this, or even this topic in general - its needlessly divisive and totally unproductive. Better yet, how does a communiy full of active posters allow such an ignorant comment without some kind of response? How can you guys allow such an unfair sweeping generalization of a group that make up %15-%20 of each home gate (and I strongly suspect an even higher % if it's broken down by premium expensive seats and coroporate luxury boxes)?????? I've got to say I have had enough. I was always that guy who would always tell any friends up here that no way, I dont want the Bills to move to TO, in fact likely would be so opposed to that, that Id end up rooting for a different team. But the general anti-Toronto, anti-Canadian attitude is just too much for me. In case you hadn't taken a few moments to think this over, it's not as if the types of business people who could attract an NFL team to Toronto are consulting extensively with Canadian based Bills fans to ask if we think the team should be relocated to Toronto. Hello. Email was sent around late last week planning for the 3 group trips we usually take to Buffalo. About 8-12 of us have been going for years. We grab a bunch of others, have a great time, and end up with a modest cheque to hand over to the Rotary Club each year. Not this year for me. I forwarded the above post to the email group up here, and expressed that I was no longer a part. I will be a Canadian football fan who sucks, and keep my money up here. About five of the old school fellows agree - we will be gathering instead at a local pub (Wild Wings - St. Laurent location) to cheer on this ridiculously awful football team, because as much as id like ot be able to just pick a new team, this is my team and has been since I was a little kid. I will be putting the money aside for when Toronto (4th largest market in North America) gets its NFL team. If it's the Bills, so be it - in my view you will have brought this on yourselves because of your unwillingness to cooperate with your Canadian fan base. Enjoy professional Lacrosse. Cheers, Chris

It really is pretty simple. There are one of two ways for this to unfold. Find a way to accomodate the Toronto area market (4th or 5th largest in all of North America) in a reasonable manner that allows the Bills franchise to generate the revenue they need in order to compete. This shouldn't involve renaming the team, or moving their home field across the border - but the organization and their WNY fan base do need to appreciate that some effective outreach to the Toronto area fans does need to occur. it's not like there are different sort of degrees of Bills fans, with some bona fide and others interlopers. Growing up as a Bills fan in London, Ont., I feel it's just as much my team as someone who grew up in Buffalo, NY cheering on the team. In the absence of this, the alternative is that Buffalo will in the fullness of time, lose the franchise. Lose the franchise altogether to California's Gold Coast, or work with Canadian fans (most of whom love the team every bit as much as WNY fans). It isn't rocket science. Chris

I cant believe what a bunch of whiny sucks most of you sound like on this board. Its like you are actually hoping this fails....you knit pick at the smallest items. Instead of looking at Toronto and Canadian fans as the freaking gift horse we are for the Bills in Buffalo - all you do is think small time and sound self conscious like high school kids. For heavens sakes, Toronto does not want to take the Bills out of Buffalo. Toronto is sending you $78M large...for 8 games over 5 years. Frankly - who the hell else would offer you that kind of a deal? Get over yourselves. And while im at it - the attitude here towards your fans from north of the border is garbage. The Bills may play in Orchard Park, but living in Buffalo doesnt make a person any more or less important as a fan. I was born and raised just outside Toronto, and have always rooted for the Bills, and they are my team too. Just as much as anyone else. 9-11 came along and all of a sudden there became this awful stigma with being a Canadian in WNY - like we have the plague or something. So shake yourselves for the love of God. Heavens to Betsy. Im not even saying you folks need Toronto to keep the Bills- but for goodness sakes it takes all kinds to build a railroad, and having Toronto support certainly doesnt hurt. Chris