oregonbbfan

You all must be too young (dude) or nieve to see what a manipulator Rosencrook is. Agree his job is to get the best deal for his client. Once a contract is in place, go on to the next guy, not wait for an opportunity and renegotiate all client contracts, which by the way gets him more money too. Look at what has happened to guys like Thomas in Chicago, TO in Philly and Willis here. Get real, they all had contracts and Rosencrook put a little bug in their ear..... Get dissed, mad at the team or want to play elsewhere and I'll get you out and more money. Sure players want to sign with because by hook or crook, whether you perform or not, Drew will squeeze every drop of blood from the franchise. I will venture a guess that if Marv can avoid this low character guy in the future, he will. He hood winked TD and others but will not Marv.

too powerful agents. Agents that have player lists that are lengthy and touch the top players on every team are someone to be very concerned with, especially the small markets. Even worse is when the agent is greedy, is morally currupt, very divisive and on a power trip. Sound like anyone you know? Rosencrook manipulated and decieved the Bills from the day of the draft with his phony calls to Willis. I also feel he had a negative influence on a guy who is not very intelligent and followed Drew's advice on how to get out of Buffalo by: practiceing at the U, demanding new contract, Toranto story, and poor intensity because he was saving himself for the next out of Buffalo contract. Do you really think that Willis could have put that all together? Both are ingrates! I am now fearfull that the NFL and small market teams who cannot provide the endorsements, nightlife, model mommas and money will be at an even greater disadvantage. These low life agents can now stir the pot more than we know. I wonder if the NFL is monitoring the fact that an agent with multiple players on different teams can conspire to create opportunities for agents to cash in on. They get their players to hold out, demand new contracts while not honoring their current one or trades. I know that is done all the time in the NFL but when an agent contriols many players, they can orchestrate and manipulate crisises that create turmoil and monetary strife that small market teams cannot deal with and ultimately succumb. The true colors of Rosencrook and what power he has is scary. Then there is the draft coming up and I will bet that half the first rounders will be represented by this manipulator. If I see that smerk or lieing face representing one or more of our choices I will puke. Suffice to say, this guy is a cancer and will not bode well for the NFL. He gave Buffalo the shaft and I hope Marv is wise enough to avoid players that he represents. I hope that guys with character will avoid him also so that he doesn't influence who we select.

Exactly. Extortion!

A 7th that was almost irrelevent. Granted Ramius, they should have tendered higher but if you have 4 or 5 RFA's , it could cost an additional $4-5 more mil out of your cap to protect them. It's probably why they added that mid tender. But with this new raiding technique, it will definitely cost teams more to keep their RFA players. I guess to be successful, you better be creative, and ruthless doesn't hurt either.

I'm not so sure. He was a real threat whenever he got the ball either on returns or YAC. My concern is the way NE got him. It was a form of extortion and there is nothing Miami could do but accept. If the NFL doesn't do something about the poison pill, any team can do this for any RFA. Pretty sad when a team can do this. Will be used more? We will see how dirty teams will want to play!

Please correct me if I misunderstand this but if it's a signing bonus, it's also amortized equally across the length of the cntract. Example: $10mil bonus over 5 year contract is $2 mil mill per year against the cap unless player is cut in which case any remaining bonus accrues against the next year's cap. Yearly salary can split up the balance of the contract any way you want to load it. The garanteed contract can be more complicated and may not be completely defined in the CBA. A garanreed amount can be garanteed salary and not subject to the amoritization rule. Example: A contract is 5 year $25mill with $10 garanteed ( paid over 2 years). Player gets $5 and $5 mil ( or any combination to make up $10 mil ) first 2 yrs whether he makes the team or is injured. It can also be considered salary ( ala Ant. Winfield's $12 mil) and need not be amortized or subject to pull up if contract canceled. If say player is cut after 2nd year, no money is dead and team is done paying. That's how I understand it but someone real knowledgeable in the CBA can clear it up further. This is risky way to do business but one that doesn't reqire a lot of cash because the TV money will pay for them in salary. Again, if you get the right guys and they perform and stay healthy, you hit the jackpot. I think Ralph has to take these chances to compete. There are many other creative nuiances that can be done i.e., part garanteed, garanteed and salary in same year and even some bonus cash or combination of all. So yes, it is getting more creative and more complicated.

With the garanteed dollars to Kelsey, Dockery and Walker ( somewhere in $37 mill area ) do we still have money to get a couple more FA's ? Anyone got an idea how much, if any, they are considering garanteed money as cash used, amortized, or some of each? Are they considering the first garanteed year as spent cash to cap? The garanteed money has made it more difficult to figure without seeing all the details of the contract. Anyone got a good feel for what we still have? This creative way to sign players is a risk but the only way we can play with the big boys. Your coaching staff better be correct in their analysis. I like that they are making the effort and not bringing in just second tier players. Just wondering what Marv thinks he still has in the bank. Will this get Clumping Platlets working long hours or will it be easier because of less amortization?

They would be nuts to give up that much for Willis. They are probably using his name to get Thomas Jones at a better price. I'd take Jones over Willis anyday. Like others have said though, I think Marv has enough to deal with and too many holes to fill to open another. I do hope that Marv surprises me though.

PS.- I am not a pro TD person but I don't think this is a TD curse. He showed how it should be done and didn't give our talent away without compensation. Why shouldn't we expect something when possible, we know it's not going to happen on all tags but when it is lined up, go get it. Also, I believe that PP was a non exclusive Franchise, not a transition tag

It's true all cases are different and I mentioned that. Also, it is a rare instance when a tag and trade is done and I cannot understand why this is true. I'm sure everything must be lined up such as the client beiing a hot commodity, willing teams, good agent and two teams willing to compromise and work out a deal. The only reason I can see for this rarity may be requirement that compensation be at least a #1 draft pick and someone willing to part with one. Maybe someone knowledgeable about franchise tag ( non exclusive ) and compensation can explain if less is acceptable. But in the case of Nate, all the stars are lined up were it not for Marv's word and his credibility, which we all agree is important to him. Again, my contention is we should get something for losing Nate, and I don't mean a compensatory pick next year. I don't understand why there is not more discussion on this. A small market team cannot lose top talent and get nothing in return. We cannot be a training ground for other teams. I know this is not possible with all FA's but this is a great opportunity (missed?). Marv still has time to work out an agreement with regard to a non exclusive tag with Nate. Actually, this is a terrible way to learn on the job. Marv should have conulted his confidants and not stepped into this trap. My God, we did it before so should have a clue how to do it again. If Marv would have been smart, on the first day of the tags, he should have talked to Nate and said, " I'm putting the non exclusive Franchise tag on you so you get a head start on free agency" which allows his agent to contact other teams. Other teams have all their money, the pool is a litttle smaller but probably teams needing that last piece to go over the top and would be willing to part with a #1 choice that a) they won't have alot of extra money to sign, b) would probably be a lower choice anyway and c) get a proven player vs a player that may make it in the future. Not to drag this out but I am sad that we get nothing for a good player we will have to replace. Marv needs to get up to speed and not let this happen again. I'm a Marv guy but he needs to do a bettter job in not letting our best talent get away.

Don't what Antoine's contract woth Minnie stated but didn't they do a first year salary of $12 mill with no amoritization because it was not bonus and not garanteed. Because if you are on the starting day roster, you are garanteed your years salary. To guard against year ending injury, because that is a risk and a way for the team to back out, do an insurance policy for the OTA's and camp. Don't know if that answers how they did it but I think it covers it all and allows the team to take the signing money and not have to amortize it.

PG, I respectfuly disagree. I was one to say we should get some compensation for Nate. You have a highly sought after commodity and a deal like PP could be worked out. Willis is a different commodity and not as likely to bring a lot of value back although I wouldn't bet against Rosencrook to find a buyer. I am not knowledeable about every word in the CBA but I would think there are ways to make the Franchise tag work for both parties whether it is Tag one or two. In each case, all the team has to do is say, " go out and find a team willing to give you a contract you are happy with and compensation we can live with". This happened with PP and franchise tag, and a little different situation but similar with D. Branch and NE and their loggerhead. In each case , something can be worked out if each wants it to be worked out and both come out with something, maybe not all they want, but something. In Nates case, we know it can be done because TD did it. As for our case, Tag#1 was was a given so we could try to work out a deal. Now on Tag#2, yes it is a little unfair because it restricts Nate for a second year and the injury risks that go along with it, even with compensation. If the Bills or anyone else lets it lapse or proceed to completion, the team gets nothing but use of the player that year and costs associated with that years salary requirements. The trick is to get something for that valuable commodity that you have a vested interest in. If an interested team must put up 2 first rounders and then do a contract, it is a big hit. But , if the players owner ( franchise tag wise ) allows the player and his agent to seek out a a trade partner who will give him the contact he wishes and the compensation the owner team desires ( less than the 2 first rounds ), a deal can be made. The owner team drops the tag, the trade takes place and each got what they wanted. The player has tested free agency because he contacted a number of teams, played them against one another, got the best deal that both teams agree to it and the deal is done. It is actually advantagous for teams to bid because it may be less of a pool because of compensation and it less than a free for all. So I feel with the tag on, things can and will get worked out if they work at it. There are ways to work around all the rules as in the "Poison pill" for RFA, someone under contract ( D. Branch), and swapping First Round choices when a player doesn't want to play for a franchise. So , there are ways around all the rules and compensation is being lost by not utilizing all options available. I also know Marv gave his word, but Marv shoud have re tagged Nate explaining that he will get his payday and that it is only fair to get something for all the Bill's time, risk and effort. I would have hoped Nate would see this and release Marv from his word and preserving Marv's integrity. Obviously these scenarios require a lot of work but I feel is feasible.

I am truly sorry this happened and I hope he overcomes it. That is the risk a team takes when they give large bonus's and the reason a player looks to get as much up front as possible. I believe the Patriots and other teams are not giving these large amounts of up front or garanteed money is because of this risk. The game is violent and can end a career in one instant. Again, hope he makes it back.

I feel we can help ourselves more by using the rediculous money Clements will get from some crazy team by getting more players. Hopefully up front rushers who will allow us to work with less costly CB's. It's amazing how over 5 years they always play better in the contract year. Also, as a high No.1 draft choice who made what, 10-20 million( don't recall exact amount, still a lot) dollars is worried about taking care of their family. I am for taking care of family but how much is enough? First contract $10+ million, Franchise $7+ million and now a large contract. I know all don't get those opportunities or money, but don't tell me about family, call it what it is, greed! Now for that greed and little loyalty, I say Marv made a large mistake. Marv should have said last year after the first tag, Nate come to camp and if we cannot hammer something out, I will tag you next year but you will be free to seek a trade or contract with anyone you wish and we will even reduce the compensation to 1 first , not the required 2. Just like TD did with Price. Tell Nate we want something for our efffort, risk and past salary. That way we get something for him instead of nothing like now. I'm not a TD fan but if he had a commodity that was top guy in FA, do you not think he would get something? And it would be fair to Nate because he goes where he wants, maybe a few less million but who's counting when we are tasking $50+ million. I know, NATE Marv gave his word and couldn't go back on it, but would it hurt for Nate to release Marv from his word to give something back to Buffalo since he knows we cannot match. Just a thought.

I've said it in another thread that I wish Marv would not have had the presser if he was going to come across as somewhat not knowledgeable ( cap ) and what Willis said. He could be sly as a fox and not giving away information but I would have rather he said I leave all cap isses to my specialist, not I don't understand it. As for Willis, he just should have said he has a right to his opinions and leave it at that. My concern is the Bills are perceived as not smart and mismanaged ( and have shown that in the past). I just hope Marv was being sly and not giving away much info. I also think that even though he will not overspend this year he is telling us the team is not one or two players short of the Super Bowl. He is saying we will spend, but not overspend in building that nucleus this year. Maybe next year, when we have made the playoffs, then he goes overboard on one or two players that put us over the top. We are not there yet. We all hope this is the year because we are so win starved and we want instant gratification. I like what Marv has done last year and I hope he does as well this year. If he does, we will see more wins and next year and will getting the final pieces. I just hope it was all a ploy at the presser and not what came across to many of us and the world. We will see what he does in FA and the draft, then we will know if he is going downhill. And if he is going downhill, hopefully the staff majority will persuade him to make the right personnel decisions.

Exactly scribo, if you can't say something good, don't say anything. This PR gaff should not have been held. Not only did did he alienate many fans and free agents out there with his surrender to the big boys, we come across as bush league and totally cheap. He may have tried to appear focused and all he did was come across as someone unable to multi-task. I'm beginning to wonder if all that age in the front office is not a detriment to our success. Marv is still learning at an age when it is more difficult to learn and Ralph is losing it. Ralph needs to quit begging and go out with dignity instead of a cheap azz whiner. The shame of all this is that I admired these guys for so many years. There is still hope that Ralph will come to his senses and make a splash, for once in his life. I can hope can't I?

I read the scrum post below and all the questions and anxiety it generated. I guess I should have mage it clearer and more concise. What was the purpose of that presser? A presser is supposed to answer questions, not generate more. Like another said, it was to lower expectations. The more I go over it the more I think it came accross to fans as capitulation. We will not spend the max or over. Ralph, spend some of the money your loyal fans have given you. Quit the poor me crap. I have listened to this bull for 47 years and it won't change till he sells. He is so dumb he won't spend and amortize some of our future. Maybe Butler was right, do all that is possible, yes, even over paying sometimes (don't agree with all his contracts) but he knew you have to keep your good players. Marv should have skipped this presser and let us speculate rather than tick a lot of people off and show his inadequacies. I like Marv but now I am beginning to wonder. I hope I'm wrong. Our only chance now is for DJ to make a silk purse out of a sow's ear.

What do you think the main purpose of that presser was. I know it was supposed to give us a feeling about the future but has it created more questions than what were answered? There were many posts, mine included , about whether Ralph would pull out all stops to create a winning team. Marv tried to sugar coat the amount Ralph was willing to spend, i.e. "we will spend to the cap" but the Buffalo fan is too savvy, and sorry to say, know more about cap than Marv does. So Marv as Marv tried to assure the fans that Ralph was going to spend actually had a lot of negative effects, namely: All our capologists now see the truth in what we will spend Now that we all figured out what they are willing to spend, we are discouraged about the signing of our own FA's and our ability or desire to sign others. If they were trying to sell tickets, I'm not so sure they sold many with this presser This presser, after generating more questions than answered, now have more concerned about what Ralph is thinking and maybe he is really looking at selling the team. Marv did nothing to project a knowedgeable GM. If you don't know much about the cap, and he could be the sly fox here, you deferr to Obermier ( sp ?) and not say you don't know much about it even if you don't. I would think the GM should be fairly versed on the cap. I really like Marv but he disappointed me today. What was supposed to project stability and a plan going forward makes me a little queezy. They would have been better off skipping this presser. Was it me or was there a little exasperation in Marv's tone that he has lesser limits or bounderies than he'd like to have due to the Boss. I always liked Ralth but am getting real tired of his never being willing to go the extra mile. I hope this all misinformation to throw the others off. We will see real soon.

The Pro Bowl is such a waste. Stop playing that stupid game before someone really gets hurt. I stopped watching after Brees and C Johnson got hurt and would have had a heart attach if I saw the Moorman hit. The game is a farce being played mostly at a speed and rules designed to protect the stars against injury. First, most of these guys haven't played in over a month. Then you have these ego idiots that take a low shot on the QB or blast a skinny punter when it is not necessary. The game is dumb. Give the boys the recognition and a car or trip to Hawaii for vacation only. I will not miss this game, as much as I like seeing my Bills play, kill the game before someone gets seriously injured.

Do others think that Moulds had a portion of the responsibility for JP's growth? I said there were other factors and not just Moulds, but EM had an effect, how much is anyone's guess. Granted, the previous coach staff had some negative effect and the new had a positive effect. But if JP was perfectly honest he would probably say EM didn't help and may have had a negaive effect, however much it was. I am , or was an EM fan up until he started knocking JP in a round about way. I like JP and his talent but mostly because he didn't scream and rant and rave about his mis handling. He has never said a negative about anyone when he had cause to and shows his class. I only wanted him to have a fair shake like others, not 8 intermittent starts. If after enough starts ( which he proved he could) he couldn't cut it, then bench him or think a new QB. But JP rose above all the negatives from EM and others vets, the media, indecision from coaches and GM to have a good year when all the detractions where eliminated. But if you think it was a joke that EM had no negative part of JP's development, I feel we are overlooking psychology and positive reinforcemnt. I respect other people's opinions about our team and this is my opinion. What do you think? Did EM have any effect on stunting JP's growth however small?

I also agree that it was a great move on Marv's part. I think in a way, that is what Wire was talking about team with respect to chemistry and team family. No more disgruntled or backbiting complainers. I still hold Moulds responsible for JP's poor development in '05. His constant rallying the troops for KH was a negative confidence builder. JP was constantly looking over his shoulder, was afraid to make a mistake, got no enouragement from his teammates and that knowledge and percieved lack of confidence from his teammates had a negative effect in JP's head. That fear of failure along with no positive reinforcement resulted in poor play even with all his physical tools. Our dumb coaches and a meddling GM also had something to do with it. Glad you got rid if the negativity and me, me people on last years team Marv. Character does count! We will see the results soon!

I hope they don't let him go without compensation like Clements. If there is so much interest in him fom Detroit or NE, put the Franchise tag on him and get something if we cannot re sign him. Marv must learn that this is business and use all at his disposal to improve our team. If no one wants to deal, we have a year to sign him and see if there is a decline in his capabilities. Either way, we get the maximum for the Bills. Even if they don't see him in our future, get somehing for him. We could on draft day use him to move up with Detroit or whomever, do a trade to include someone who doen't want to be there or to get draft choices, all which helps the Bills. I hope Marv has learned a little in his year as GM and while playing fair and clean, get what he can for his team. He cannot make mistakes like Clements and he must use all tactica and opportunities at his disposal. We will see when the F tags are placed.

He's definately one of the best and I saw all three when they were actually doing the running. The one video I would also like to see is the one where during the draft they would pan in on him at his mom's house every time a pick was made in the first round. You could see his disgust when he wasn't picked. As they got through the first round he started snoozing and they would show him with his eyes closed ( don't think he was actually asleep) but when the second round came and he got the call from the Bills you could see his frustration turn to determination to make everyone who passed on him pay big time. Great career TT, you made them pay and you now have acknowledgement!!!!!!!!!! Congrats!

Anyone else noticed that he is coming as the off. line coach, not asst line coach as Zierlien was. Has the OL coaching duties been split or has Mouse been elevated to say Asst Offensive cordinator. Or has it been decided that the task is too great and important for one guy. Or they don't have the faith in Mouse. I may have missed an announcement or something but are they both sharing the same title and if so do they both report directly to DJ or does Mouse still organize, direct the line calls. I am satisfied with the selection although puzzled about why he didn't accept last year. Hopfully withhis new ideas and knowledge if western conference talent it will reap great rewards. Any news around town on the title thing? Thanks

Sorry I missed it. It wasn't confirmed then, it is now. We all are pretty astute to make many of the same observations. Others may make fun but we need people who can teach and get the most from the best configuration. Again, who was responsible for whatever improvement we had and will it continue? I just hate throwing more changes on the team. It's possible it will get better or God forbid, the other direction. Because of the improvement I am a Z fan. The improvement could also be a result of being able to focus on less individuals, kinda like improved learning with smaller class size. Is this a trend now, i.e. assistant line coaches? With all the new coach staffs being assembled, will we get experience or will he come from college. Any thoughts other than Hull