LaDairis

"You are making the mistake of assuming that nobody knows that but you. You spout off about stats/probability and then base a large part of your argument on something that CANNOT be quantified statistically: Allen's character." We can quantify that Allen's character has been an empirical problem. That you insist that is "BS" and the fact that he is one slip-up from a year long suspension is par for the level of sand blasted beaked idiocy you have bawked out here. You think you "know" Allen's character. You do not. "In the meantime it's just more of your bullsh*t. " Yeah, his passion for boozing and banging his car is "my fault." Got it... "KC was willing to part with a CONSENSUS All Pro." LMAO!!! Note the emphasis on "consensus." There was a "consensus" that Robert Gallery was a sure thing OLT. Beaked birdbrains really like the "consensus" stuff. If one guru says something, that means less to a parrot than if a whole bunch of gurus "agree" on a "consensus" like Gallery. Who was the ONLY "Draft Guru" to PAN Gallery and claim Vernon Carey was the #1 OT prospect in 2004? Yeah... That's why Ramius is so obsessed. Do yourself a favor, doggie. Go in front of a mirror and make sure you still have dog hair, not feathers...

Some people here are still very bitter for being outed as parrots, and watching LaDairis call the Bills Draft picks better than the Bills FO. LaDairis was the one who said Kyle Williams was as good as McCargo. LaDairis was the one who pointed out that the parroting of height and guru reports did not make Martin Nance a good WR. Ramius vehemently disagreed. Hence, after losing his first 131 debates with LaDairis, Ramius brings up Geisinger, a healthy bust, and King, a very good value as a nickel back and a quality player the Bills should not have cut. Both were Second Day picks, rounds 5 and 6. Oh, my, the horrors, one of my 6th rounders ended up a bust. As for the players above him... yeah, not much for Ramius to discuss... LOL!!

Indeed, that Bill Walsh guy really did not know what he was doing trading down year after year... One year he ended up with like five Third Rounders!!! Some losers named Charles Haley etc...

Darling was always on the outs in Baltimore. They finally played him a bit last year, and he looked really good. However, he is a "possession" guy like Bowe. Jeff Webb has wheels and hands, but has issues too. Bowe was the "best" rookie WR last year largely by default, as Meecham, Gonzalez, Davis, and Jason Hill fought injuries. It is fun to go back and verify what I saw last year. Typical KC play by play drive: Pass to Bowe - incomplete Pass to Bowe for 12 yards Pass to Bowe incomplete Run Pass to Bow incomplete Punt Do that for six straight possessions and Bowe gets 6 for 72 for the game, and the stat parrots just love him!!!!!!!!! KC needs a speedy WR, not another "possession" type.

http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/story/7957044...ng-vs.-Gholston "Gholston looked a little stiff in the hips in drills, had trouble changing direction and didn't bend his knees consistently throughout." "As strong as Gholston is, he has trouble disengaging from blockers to consistently position himself to make tackles." .... because of the top quote... The dude can be handled. His main attraction is what he looks like in his undies. On the field, the stiff hips are obvious, and it will be incredible if the NFL has a team dumb enough to put him at OLB. He gets juked in space when he is left in space. He has power and straight speed, nothing more.

"And any player they would have drafted or that KC drafts will be worse than Allen if THEY get hurt or suspended. I like how your crystal ball only works in reverse." For someone so sure the sacks stat tells everything to know about a DE (don't bother watching the other 98% of his plays), you do not seem to understand stats and probability. Having four healthy high character players for the price of one low character player is a much less risky gamble. In the Draft, you get to choose from everyone. In FA/trade, you only get what another team wants to part with. "Anyone who knows sports, especially football, knows that you're ALWAYS one play away from having it all taken away. What, you just discovered that concept?" Sincerely, Jeff Hostetler Trent Dilfer Kurt Warner Kevin Boss "I'm waiting to hear that from a pro personnel director." because you certainly know better than to trust your own eyes...

That is a typical attempt to compare apples and oranges and completely ignore character and injury. It also simply totals up the "sacks" and nothing else as far as "ranking" Allen. The Vikes' first will likely be an excellent player assuming KC spends it wisely. Any player will be better than Allen if he gets hurt or suspended. Your underlying assumption is that every NFL player is 100% guaranteed to stay healthy and out of trouble. It is like a "puzzle." Just fit the pieces together, the ones with the stats, and presto, Super Bowl here we come. Backups, depth, salary cap, injury and character issues - WWWWWOOOOOOOOOOOOOOSSSSSSSSSHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!! What was that which just sailed overhead??? NFL teams work with limited number of dollars and Draft picks. You don't part with an enormous amount of both for one overrated character case.

"Now the question is was it too much? Shrug." There are two aspects to the cost. The first is the contract. The second is the Draft pick compensation. The latter is the problem. The Draft is the life blood of a decent franchise. If making outrageous deals and paying top dollar for less than top talent worked, the Skins would have some Super Bowls since the first Gibbs era. The price the Vikes paid was absurd even without the character and injury risk. "The Vikings defense has been #1 against the run for the last two years..." In part because their DEs were large, strong, and slow, and defended the run much better than they pass rushed. Allen will weaken that. The other reason why they are "#1 against the run" stat-wise is because they play in a division without an elite opposing runner. "He's shown to be a prolific pass rusher for 4 years, and is young enough to continue to be highly productive for another 4+." Assuming he both stays healthy (pure luck) and stays out of trouble (where there is a decisively negative track record). When you spend more than 10% of your Salary Cap on one player, you ought to be reasonably sure such player will act with intelligence and honor. The risk is high enough that he will get hurt. Teams allow players to leave for reasons. "so Allen will likely benefit even more by having other threats nearby" Kevin Williams is the best DT in the NFL. Pat Williams is still good but very old and near the end. Off the edge, the Vikes have nobody of the caliber of Tamba Hali. Whether that nets out helping or hurting Allen remains to be seen. Whether Justin Smith plus the First and 2 Thirds plus another $3 mil per year in Cap Space would have been a safer and vastly superior option is a truly pathetic question. Trading picks for the right to pay head cases top dollar is a historically failed strategy. One thing working in Allen's favor is the lack of youth and talent at the OLT position in the NFC North. That talent, however, if it were to stay healthy this year (Clifton, Backus, Tait) is substantially better than the AFC West OLTs Allen faced last year.

At the risk of being "proven wrong" the next time the Rams schedule a press conference... Vernon Gholston the guy is a workout wonder with stiff hips. He is definitely too stiff for OLB. As a down DE, the kid has the bull rush and the straight wide rush, but ask him to double move and the hips start to show. Any decent OT in the NFL with enough power to handle his bull rush should shut down Gholston completely. We can only hope he ends up a Jet or Pat.

Good. Let's hope the NFL thinks that. Hopefully we will get some trade offers for #11 if NFL teams desperate for edge rush think that.

There are several ways to look at that. The first is as you state. The second is who you are playing against, the quality of the OL etc., and the third is how many snaps you get. Allen got a lot of snaps against some very lousy blockers. He was also always "going for the sack" and not playing disciplined run defense.

Absolutely we should trade down if we can. This is a decent Draft. There are a lot of good (healthy, high character) players projected in the middle rounds. A few: Craig Stevens TE Cal Bryan Kehl LB BYU Titus Brown DE Miss ST. Shawn Murphy OG Utah State Keenan Burton WR Kentucky

Clearly, the only "measure" of pass rush ability is actual recorded sacks, and nothing else can be considered. LeManzer Williams has the all time sack record for the Big 10. He was clearly the greatest pass rusher to ever come out of the Big 10. Some DEs cheat to pass rush when they should be anchoring against the run. Allen is one of them. The best comparison would be to someone named Bob McAdoo in basketball, who scored a ton of points every time his team lost by 20, in part because Bob McAdoo only cared about scoring, in large part because most idiot fans were only capable of parroting his points scored average and insisting that anyone who challenged that "proof" of McAdoo's "greatness" was "wrong."

"While I agree the money is laughable and, yes, a 1st & 2 3rds is steep, fact remains the Vikes brought him in for one reason only. To get to the QB. With their interior run D, they don't need Allen to excel in that dept." Just about the only thing good about the Vike DEs on the roster before yesterday was their run defense. Take a strong DE against the run and replace him with Allen and the run D to that side will suffer. Pat Williams is really old.

"And you don't think Jared Allen faced double teams?" Not nearly as many as Justin Smith or Mario Williams faced. Indeed, Allen did not get double teamed most of the KC games I watched last year. "The Chiefs have nobody on their line to take the pressure of Allen, and he still led the NFL in sacks." Tamba Hali is the other DE. So much fuss is over the actual sack, not the pressures and disruptions. Some sacks are garbage. Others are forced by other players. Hali got an assist on plenty of Allen's sacks last year. Hali prevented other teams from doubling Allen. Allen isn't that good. The only thing that is "good" about Allen is the fact that so many football "gurus" assess the talent of pass rushing by endlessly parroting the sack totals as if they are a precise measure of pass rushing. They aren't. Dishing a First and two Thirds for the right to give an overrated character case top dollar is something most of us thought only Danny Snyder could do.

Do you think Dan Snyder is a smart NFL owner?

Devin Thomas Tracy Porter Craig Stevens

This WR class is deep and not very steep. That favors a patient approach.

Let's get this straight. Justin Smith "only" had 2 or so sacks last year, while Jared Allen led the NFL in sacks. What does that really mean? For one, it tells exactly how many times Justin Smith faced chips and double teams. When Smith got the chance late in the season to face Joe Thomas without help, Smith dominated, created pressure, forced turnovers, and triggered an upset. Allen may very well be a better pass rusher, but 14-2 is not an accurate reflection of the margin. Justin Smith is an excellent player who is high character and better against the run, and well more than half as effective off the edge. So, instead of beating the Niners by guaranteeing 20 mil to Smith, the stupid Vikes trade their First and 2 Thirds for the "right" to pay Allen $30 mil guaranteed despite the fact that Allen is one bust away from a year long suspension and is not a very good player against the run. This has to be one of the most all time brainless FO decisions. Shocking, laughable, and we can all cheer that at least the Bills were not as stupid as the Vikes...

"but in last year's game against the Colts when the Chiefs almost pulled an upset, he was getting to Manning on every single play" Perhaps that might have had something to do with the fact that Charles Johnson was the Colt OLT that game... http://www.nfl.com/liveupdate/gamecenter/2...ND_Gamebook.pdf Don't get me wrong. The "fact" that Allen is credited with zero sacks and one pressure does not "refute" what you observed. Rather, the level of competition does. Allen played in the AFC West, against Barry Sims, Lepsis' backup, and the horribly overrated Marcus McNeil, who is a lousy pass blocker. Allen is not that good. If Mario Williams had played against Denver every game last year, he would have had 40 sacks. Also add in the reality that, because of Hali, Allen did not see a lot of double teams either.

The Jags too.

LOL!!! Geisinger clearly never cut it inside. King was the Titan nickel last year until he broke his arm. As for the rest of the debates we had... George Wilson vs. Martin Nance McCargo vs. Kyle Williams Youboty vs. Eric King the rest of that 2006 NFL Draft, including Clint Ingram, Anthony Montgomery, Guy Whimper etc. Yeah, keep bringing up Geisinger, the "1" in your 1-127 record vs. LaDairis...

"Why do people insist on promoting stupid things like trading for a moron?" It is truly baffling. Correctly phrased, it is trading the vast majority of our value in picks in this Draft for the right to pay a character head case loser top dollar, including huge guaranteed money up front. Insane. Anyone confused about what Little Chaddy did at the half during the Bengals playoff loss to Pitt? Yeah, he went batty on the backup QB, Kitna, who actually had the Bengals ahead, for not throwing to Little Chaddy enough. What happened? The Bengals came out and QUIT in the second half. That is the "net effect" of adding Little Chaddy...

"Jared Allen is the best DE in the game right now" Oh please... Just counting sacks doesn't fully measure the DE. Allen got some help from the pressure coming from the other side: Hali. To say he is better than Mario Williams is laughable. Dishing top picks for the right to pay this character case a huge bonus and top dollar is close to insane, and way beyond stupid.

A better DE than Harvey on the field last year was Miss State's Titus Brown. The NFL foolishly asked Brown to play OLB at the Senior Bowl. That was a "value creating" blunder. Brown is a great DE who plays with power, intensity, and is extremely quick off the snap. Will anyone in the NFL figure that out before the next 7 days? Jared Allen is one screw up away from a year long suspension, not the type of guy you want to give a huge signing bonus. If the offer is there to trade down, the Bills should take it. The top of the DL board past the two DTs is lame. The WR class is a mess. There are a lot of great values past round 1, players like Keenan Burton, Craig Stevens, Brown, Tracy Porter, Dre Moore, David Vobora, Chris Johnson as a WR/slot hybrid, Shawn Murphy. Trade down and get the Draft's healthy, high character values. Never trade quality picks for another team's expensive head case.