finknottle

I don't understand. Travis Henry reached 2000 by the end of his second season on the payroll. It was deep into his third before WM reached it. Injury-shimjury, ifs- and buts-, we paid in dollars and a draft pick for WM and it took longer to get production in return. And in the final analysis, we are paying about 10 times the price per yard gained for WM than we did for TH.

So he gets a complete pass? Yes, those were all crippling problems, but the bottom-line is that he hasn't shown anything to make us think he will be good. Anybody who is satisfied with excuses and isn't the least bit concerned as to whether JP can produce at this level is a fool.

Why? Because you know from JP's performance this season that he is the answer? To me the jury is still out, and looking shaky at that. If Marv and Modrak decide they need to do better, and think there is somebody better available, on what basis do you claim they are wrong? Methinks the only shiny bauble distracting people around here is the fact that JP is a first rounder. If we had drafted him in the third, and gotten the exact same production out of him, the masses would be burning him in effegy and drooling at the prospect of drafting Young.

At a minimum, I hope he gets more visibility in camp. At this point we have no idea why he never got any time... situational? or lack of talent?

That's right. Bills Nation loses its woodie every time a fancy first rounder gets out-performed. Lionel Gates should not be given the opportunity to win a starting job.

And you would draft a player expecting him to be here 12 years? Get him cheap for 5 years, let him walk - sounds like smart cap management to me.

I for one thought it was a terrible mistake. He was unimpressive in KC, and was terrible in the USFL. He had old-boy-network retread written all over him. I was of course wrong.

Joe Bugel, Richie Petibone, Norv Turner, and Terry Robitskie (who always gets named interim coach and loses out the season). In the end, none of those guys proved successfull at the helm.

what is PARTICULARLY asinine about this latest installment is that when 2 undrafted drafted QB's face each other - only one can be the winner. The numbers are the numbers.

Simple question: why should I root for the Bills if they couldn't care less about me or my city? You'ld have to be a sap.

and a change of teams?

Well, I've been traveling around the country - both coasts - and from everything I've heard the talk is much more positive than it is in Buffalo. It is basically 1. Marv is back - gee that's great 2. RW is taking back the unprecedented control he gave TD - yawn 3. What's up with MM??? Bit thin-skinned, isn't he? I havn't heard any real criticism about the organization, RW or ML.

It is my belief (no research to back it up) that new coaches are particularly effective at bringing in FA's. I think this is because a new coach can better sell a player on the idea that he is his guy, his first choice to build around, not a mere addition who may be discarded in a year... just think of the impact FA's we had at the start of the TD era. However comes in will enthuse and sign his guys as his guys. Had MM stayed, with the lingering uncertaintity over his head, I'd be much more concerned.

I've never shied away from bashing the organization, but this I think is great for the Bills. Look at it from the national media's perspective. Why would they view the Bills as in disarray as opposed to the TD regime? Who in the organization is a problem today that wasn't here one month ago, when presumably MM was a happy camper? Levy in place of TD, and an owner that cans a GM after 5 years with a dismal record and takes back some control. Gee, that's unheard of in the NFL! Seriously, I do not believe this sends the troubling message that people here are worrying about. Whatever thoughts and concerns people have about the Bills organization will be forgotten as soon as there is a management team and coaching staff in place. And with the lame-duck taint gone, this is suddenly a much more attractive opening for assistants. For better or for worse, however, MM will be marked as a quitter if and when he gets another shot. Those questions will linger about him far longer than it will the Bills.

On the contrary, I think this cleans things up greatly and makes this more attractive. Nobody wanted to come here to play for a coach with an iffy future, under a new GM - they don't want to be tarred with the old regime. Now if they come, they are part of the solution, the new era.

I agree completely.

Pyramid scheme. ok, so you shrug off 109m in spending over a cap of 80m by arguing for bonuses pushing the deficit into the future. Fine. So if that is your approach, where do you account for the dead money on the books from previous years of doing this? I don't see it in your estimates. And I should add that Mould's contract, for example, is not a problem because we pay him too much. It is a problem because we repeatedly restructured it to push money down the road. Most of the money to be charged against him was actually paid long ago. So the point is that if you play accounting cap games like you advocate, all those "5m" linemen on the books will actually be making much less.

Thanks for the site! I stand corrected. I had read some reports that his deal was 16m over 4 years. It is interesting that he (23rd pick, coming off a significant injury with at least one year lost) makes about 50% more in base salary each of the five years than Losman (22nd pick). I'd still stay away from him on the basis of cost for anything higher than a 2nd, if I get him only for 2 years at a million a year.

Frankly, I think his value around the league right now is a 2nd round pick. Seriously. In their eyes he is a legit starter, but he has no track record of taking over and dominating games. He has only 1 year left on his contract, with DR as an agent. There is never a shortage of young explosive backs in the draft. Actually, I think I'm talking myself into a 3rd round pick... WM has the same numbers as TR in about the same conditions, but costs 10 times as much and looks more likely to be a problem player.

I feel like I'm beating a tired drum here, but... 50% of first round qb's don't make it, and 25% only make it as journeymen. Those are bad odds. So if you are the owner/GM and your people come to you and say 'we want to draft joe qb with our first round pick, we think he'll be good,' then unless you are a fool you have to approach the issue with the expectation that that pick may very well be wasted, and you have to ask yourself whether you can afford to take a flyer with that pick. So if the JP pick was wasted (and I'm not ready to write him off yet), then so be it. Only a fool stubbornly sticks to his first round qb just by virtue of the pick.

He's the guy that chartered the sex cruise, putting it on his own credit card.

I hate people who throw former Bills under the bus.

Bought it for a song??? That was a lot of money for an upstart team in an upstart league, at a time when football wasn't what it is today. Tell you what, why don't you move to a bustling city like Vegas and plunk down a few hundred thousand or a million to form your own football team, if you think it's such a no-brainer.

I would still draft later and draft often, but your reasoning and the approach are legit. Minor point: the odds are lower for lower picks and UDA's, but you can afford to sign them in bunches. Cutting a 5th round qb every season is no big setback. Where I would disagree (and I'm using you as a strawman here since I don't know if you advocate this) is whether you start a guy to accelerate his assessment and development simply because he's a first rounder. I say no. If you invest three seasons each starting first rounders who are the solution 25% of the time, you can expect to finally realize you've hit on a guy by the end of the third try, or after almost a decade of amaturish play from the most important spot. Sound right Cincy?

Why not? Home-town rooting doesn't change the fact that most qb's drafted in the first round do not become the NFL quality starters. If he is lucky he becomes a legit journeyman. Those are bad odds just to accelerate the development of a guy who history says will not be here in 4 years. You let him watch untill he convinces you he is the best qb on the roster. The team comes first.