krazykat

Well, after second thought, you're right. Marv's record prior to joining the Bills stands for itself: 31-42 Hey, how 'bout that, exactly the same as Jauron's was at one point. Imagine. And again, you're right, the second that Polian left and he wasn't still around to amass talent Levy's record soared to new heights with a 7-9 season followed by a pair of 10-6s before finisihing his career with a blazingly hot 6-10. How could I be so blind!

I wasn't going to comment on this thread, but I entirely agree. The entire article is a bunch of fluff. It may be nice to hear now, but let's see where Schonert has us at week 10. "Trent is very mature for a young guy, very poised," Schonert said. "His pocket presence, and his all-around presence and awareness caught you. It was something that stood out last year as a rookie." Yet, he was the least productive QB in the league last year, right Turk. Conveniently forgot to mention that. In 2006, Schonert overhauled Losman's mechanics to help him improve his completion percentage from 49.6 to 62.5. ...then in '07 threw him under the bus. "To me it teaches you not to overload those young guys," Schonert said. "You've got to put them in situations where they can be at their best." Hopefully Schonert will find his way to getting trent out of Pampers and into some swimmers this year. They're professional athletes Turk, not deprived inner city kids with no guidance or mentoring. Edwards went to Stanford for Petesakes. There's absolutely nothing substantive in that piece which I had read prior to this post. Come back in week 10 and we can see precisely what Schonert picked up from Wyche. And why has it taken Schonert 16 years to budge from being a QB coach?

Polian carried Marv from the top and Polian's players and Marv's assistants carried him from the bottom. We had a Super Bowl winning collection of talent and all that Marv could do with it was lose four straight. You're right about Jauron, he'd better be right because he's already flunked on one OC and has made this team worse from '05 when everyone said that it couldn't get any worse. I mean I don't know how many years he expects to be able to at least take this team up into the average range, but there's no excuse from taking it from a spot where it was almost impossible to make it worse but did. I mean think about that, the team is worse than it was under Malarkey in terms of its play. And the team's own decisions keep making it worse. I honestly don't even know how it's happening because on paper we're better. We were 31st in yardage differential last year and 25th in scoring differential down from 30th and 17th the year before and close to the 30th and 27th we were under Malarkey.

When you figure out what it is that you're trying to say and have something intelligent to contribute, please do. Also, if you're going to cite my stances, at least do so accurately please.

I couldn't agree with you more. In fact I see Schonert out there on an island all by himself. These guys can talk about how he played backup QB under Wyche all they want. One man does not an offense create. Particularly one that's never done it before. Funny though how there's already been some posts as to how he has. He's going to need a mentor and I have no idea who he's going to draw upon for that. Making calls to people no longer in the league will only go so far. As you suggest, Jauron will be of no assistance. IMO I expect little more than we got from Fairchild, partly because we just don't have the talent and if we did, then we wouldn't have scored fewer TDs than any other Bills offense in the history of the Bills in the NFL. He's also already in over his head as his own comments condemn him there. There's little consistency. I'd guess that he is struggling already. But hey, don't worry, be happy. Isn't that the theme here. LOL

Sorry, but we didn't run what they ran/run in St. Louis under Martz last year. If anything we ran something closer to a WCO. The Rams offense under Martz was more of a run-and-shoot. But, it's entirely predicated on short passes, not the more mid-range passes that say the run-and-shoot of Warren Moon's day was predicated upon. Also, the Rams style of offense utilizes the RBs for rushing more than a typical RnS does. So why did Fairchild not run that here then? Any guesses? Martz did his own thing in St. Louis which was something of a hybrid of the RnS and WCO. If anything it got away from the RnS aspect of it once Fairchild took over. You will also note a corresponding dip in offensive production which I warned about when Fairchild was being considered for the job. The reason, at least partially, why they got away from it no doubt had to do with their secondary receivers getting stripped in free agency. One thing you'll note about the Rams offense if you go back to when they were much better, is that Bulger/Warner often threw balls short before the receivers were even in the spot or even had their eyes fully on the ball. It revolved around a system of synchronicity that few teams have the talent to employ for one reason or another. Here's a very good link to an article very briefly summing up the differences between the RnS and the WCO. http://stl.scout.com/a.z?s=124&p=2&c=768773 Fairchild upon arriving here, seemed to try to use a WCO more with Losman, but then switched things up for Edwards when he got in there but for the life of me I can't say what he was doing since it didn't work for starters, and secondly hardly produced anything to offer up any significant trends or patterns. It honestly seemed as if the goal was to minimize sacks as if that was the end goal. Because it was tremendously limited from the value of producing much of anything to the extent that it produced a mere TD/game while Edwards was under center. It doesn't take an NFL statistician to realize that any team whose offense can't score more than 17 or 18 TDs/season really sucks. So anyone stating what Fairchild was doing precisely this past season is either taking a massive stab at it or is FoS. All we know is what they say, but given their/his credibility now, I"d say that's not even worth the air that it came out of his mouth on. So to get back to your point, Fairchild's offenses in St. Louis were distinctly different than the ones that Martz had there. We can argue whether it was he that made the change or Martz himself realizing that he no longer had the depth of talent to make it work, or whatever, but the two systems were different. They were also very differently productive with Fairchild's systems in St. Louis underperforming Martz's big time.

I couldn't agree more obie. (sanity check)

As to 1/2, you're discussing nuances. We can beat that for months and that's what coaches do behind the scenes. The thing is that at the end of the day you must execute. Even with a wrong scheme if you execute on the field, you won't have a dead last unit. Our execution, other than in little micro analyses, was pathetic. 3. A standard pro set is the 2 WR, 1 TE, TB/FB set, yes. Not 3 WRs. IMO this team isn't suited to anything that requires mano-a-mano blocking and the closer we get to a WCO the more that will be required. We have a very good grind it out between the Ts type of runner with good vision to pick the holes. So let's use that. Let's use Lynch from the backfield on other plays too as an outlet. If they actually quit just talking about using a TE and begin employing one and used Royal as a receiver more, then we would probably get more from the offense than we will any other way this year. Hardy could then be worked in in a rotation and used in 3 WR sets. As it is, all this talk of a WCO or spread offense, or anyone of dozens of variations of it is moot IMO. Our linemen after Peters are not great at singular blocking. Zone blocking may help that, but it's not the entire solution. We also haven't been good at picking up the blitz and IMO we're gonna see that and often until we prove that we can. So to me and as I see it, we're gonna need at least 6 blockers in on most plays. That limits our options otherwise. But we have Lynch, a strong inside runner and good receiver out of the backfield, so why not use him that way. And as I see it, that is what Schonert is trying to do. I also don't know, as someone asked, why anyone thinks we're going with a WCO this year. It makes little sense and failed, in one form or another, last year. In spades too. You can talk about the triangles and variations of it all you want to, the basic tools are not here to have it succeed to any significant extent. They aren't. 4. Who knows what's gonna change in the WRs since college. I downplay what they did, positive or negative until I see them on the field in the NFL. Far too many top rated WRs never do jack. So we will see. Still, the odds of us talking about how Hardy developed into a fine #1 in three seasons, or even a #2 are less than they are that we're talking about another bust draft pick. 5. I agree with you here and already stated as much in another post. Don't remember which thread it was in. There's a common misperception that the WCO is all 3/5 step drops when teams can run them almost exclusively on 7SDs if they want to. But to my credit then, we're gonna need some blocking the likes of which we haven't gotten in years here in Buffalo including last year. It's nice to say "hey, this is the OL's second year as a unit, so they should really gel and play like studs," but we both know that would be foolish. -Turk Schonert, despite however you may feel about it, knows more about running and implementing an NFL offense unlike anyone else here, as he's actually been a QB in an NFL system. Well, unfortunately he doesn't have to know more than anyone here. He needs to be able to outstrategize the Defenseive Coordinators and Head Coaches of the 13 teams on the schedule this year, right. So talk about myopic, let me ask you, can you make the same statement inserting "the Defenseive Coordinators and Head Coaches of the 13 teams on the schedule this year" in place of "anyone else here" with equal confidence? If so, then what is your basis for that? -Constantly posting to rain on the collective parades of people here should have gotten old to you by now. It's a public message board for starters. Secondly my goal is not to rain on anyone's parade. And by that, what are you suggesting, that you and others here would rather just have your beliefs that we're going to the Super Bowl, and if not that, then why not, over actually trying to see what may really happen this year and look at the realities, not the fantasies, of our team's play last year? Is that it to you, as long as everyone is happy everyone else should go away? Then why is everyone bitching up a storm when the predictable happens every year? I mean if it's all about just being happy, then why the griping, pissing and moaning, and bitching in week 12 when things fall apart annually? And you know what gets to me, is all these people such as yourself telling people such as myself to go away and how wrong we are, when at the end of the season we will once again be more correct than you are, and you are the ones leading the B word sessions here. It gets really old watching people support something strenuously against better judgement, then hearing the whine about it after they are completely wrong. Wouldn't you say that that would be at least equally annoying!

Yeah, it sure will be. I'm not even sure he knows now. I'm gonna guess that his offense is a work in progress. It would be unusual for a new OC to come in and completely rewrite the offensive playbook if he even had the experience to do that. Otherwise, it's all going to come down to execution mano-a-mano. We weren't good at it last year, so why we will be good at it this year is unknown at this point. Hardy will help but only moderately and only if he does something.

LOL Perhaps. We will see. I will say this, it's going to be an entertaining season right here though.

Well, when you say that you say it as if I think this team would be good if we did. Let me put it this way, I wouldn't start Edwards over anyone and if you break down his games all you have left is excuses as to why he sucked royally. Other than this "poise" thing which no one has even explained how it matters practically, there is absolutely nothing to his game. Zilch! If the team plays so much better otherwise, and all we we are going to get with this team playing better in other facets of the game is dead last offensive production and near dead last defensive production, and a downturn in STs from the year before, then I"ll simply pass. Why don't any of you have any higher standards for your own team? I would start JP over Edwards for the simple reason that the offense moves the ball more yards, scores more points on average, logs more 1st downs, converts more 3rd downs, etc. I mean isn't that what an offense is supposed to do? Seems to me that if you were to take a poll here the answer is no, it's not. It's supposed to see who looks better on the field and walks off the turf with fewer grass stains on their uniform or some rot. I just don't get it. The team is better w/o Edwards. So why do so many people want to see him on the field and why are so many of you so excited to see him play like sh-- again and make the offense play like sh-- again? He's not good and there isn't anything besides this absurd notion that "he's poised" yet with absolutely no definition as to how or why it even matters behind it other than to say that others around him play better when that's not even true for the offensive players. Defensively, chah, don't we expect the defensive players to play better vs. Miami, the Jets, Browns, or Ravens than we do vs. Jax or NE? I guess not.

I wish I could say I'm gonna laugh, but it's gonna be just another gut wrenching day, when about midseason you guys are all asking yourselves WTF this team is even doing. Edwards won't even be starting next year and never will again after this season is my prediction. The guy has played as poorly in his first season as some of the biggest first round busts of all time. You guys just won't see it all because everyone is screaming "poise." The disappointment will be great. At least with JP we would have a shot because he's improved steadily. And when he does replace Edwards who is going to be looking for work following the season in all likelihood, he will outperform Edwards before leaving the team. Again, not that he would be our future QB as he's probably not, but Edwards sure as hell doesn't give us our best chance of winning, that should be for damn sure.

You know, that's another very good damn point directed at the Edwards butt kissers. JP came in while Lynch was out for the NE and Jax games. Was Edwards hurt then or something? Interestingly JP still played better than Edwards did in at least 7 of his 9 starts against crap teams though. And as you suggest, he did it without Lynch in the lineup. Unbelieveable. I have no idea if Edwards was injured or if the team did this intentionally knowing that JP didn't have a chance at a win and so not as to tarnish their hand selected pretty boy's record or what. Just one more example why comparisons between the two QBs is completely unfair last year, and in spite of that the team was still more productive offensively under Losman. And let's not forget that under Edwards the team's TO ratio was +14 in his 9 starts where as it was -5 in Losmans. Gee, maybe we can see why now. And people expect us to extend credibility to this coaching staff or to succomb to notions that the team played better under Edwards. Unreal.

My objective is to discuss reality, not fantasy. It's to ascertain what is really wrong and not simply what we'd like to be wrong with this sorry franchise. 1. The offense we ran last year was designed entirely to protect Edwards and not throw him to the wolves. That was Schonert's philosophy as a QB coach according to his own words. But you knew that, right. 2. Perhaps someone had better define it and see if it all adds up since it's been made the focal point of "what's right" about him. Don't you think. Otherwise it could mean different things to different people. To me in this context it means that Edwards' didn't fall apart under pressure. But then again he didn't face the pressure that Fairchild had JP under in '06 either now, did he. The dictionary definition of poise is: To carry or hold in equilibrium; balance. Tells us a whole lot, doesn't it. 3. Sounds good here. Either way, JP is better on third downs too which you wouldn't think based on your implications. Last season Losman completed 56.3 of his 3rd-down passes with 1 TD/1 INT. Edwards completed 48.3% of his with 1 TD/3 INTs. So which one was better on 3rd-downs. I'll say Losman just out of the blue and because apparently I'm a JP homer for suggesting that. LOL 4. Say what you want about Edwards, Fairchild, and the system last year. The results were utterly pathetic. We had the fewest offensive TDs in the history of the franchise by 4 TDs from what I can tell and we scored less per game under Edwards than we did under Losman. Neither was good. I am not sure what you are aiming for here? Are you really wondering about poise or trying to dismiss it as a factor. Define what you mean by poise and maybe someone can provide useful information. Not to try and rub you the wrong way or anything, but I find that the information that I'm providing is at least factual regardless of whether you do much with it or not. What I'm aiming for is to attempt to get an explanation from someone per my original post in post #1 of this thread, why anyone has hope in a QB that essentially led us to franchise worst offensive production last year in only stating that he has poise. I've never heard of a QB going to the Super Bowl on poise. Have you.

Can't you look it up yourself? I said offense too. So before you start giving Edwards credit for the 4 STs and D TDs he got on his watch contrasted with 1 for JP, at least be fair there. Here's another exercise for you; how many 3rd down conversions did the team have on a per game basis under JP contrasted with Edwards? It's amazing to me how many people chime in without having the facts before them. Today all of this data is laid out for you by Nfl.com or other sites. All you have to do is sort it. Also, how about 1st-downs converted between the two again, on average. See, you have no idea yet you assume that it was better under Edwards when it wasn't. In fact, under Edwards we sucked atrociously in 3rd downs converted. Easily league last, easily. Yet everyone still says that he moved the ball more. Whatever.

I'm not a JP homer though. But dismissing the simple facts that the offense performed better under him reveals that you may be an Edwards homer though. He still sucked, but as the facts show, it was better than Edwards. In fact, our best offensive performance by a long shot was with Losman under center.

Are you suggesting that Schonert won't have problems?

And no, the biggest problem for our offense last year was a line that couldn't block and a QB that couldn't move the ball. It's ridiculous to blame that lack of superior receivers after a quite proven Evans when numerous other teams saw passing production greater than ours with even less. The problem is Edwards and the OL. Whether both or either improve remains to be seen. I see no reason why the line would improve significantly however. Edwards in his second season will certianly have an edge, but so too will our opponents know what to expect, so that may very well be awash.

You enjoy digging holes, don't ya. I think you overestimate many things about this team. It's not Evans' getting open downfield that I don't think will occur, he was open last year at times when Edwards simply didn't see him or was able to deliver. Doesn't have to be 50 times to prove problematic, it only takes a half dozen to suggest issues there and there were at least that. Throw in some to other receivers too and it merely compounds the problem. I have no faith in Edwards or the OL. Why should I, if either had done their job to even slightly below average standards last season we wouldn't have had the worst offense in the league under Edwards and one of the worst if not the worst one in Bills franchise history as well. Hardy will command a one-on-one just like whomever else lined up at WR in whatever spot he assumes did last season until he can prove something in this league. You already talk about him as if it's a given that he's a shoe-in for success. The odds are strongly against it, for any WR, not just Hardy. But that doesn't seem to factor into your assessment. In other words, the chances are greater that he amounts to nothing than they are that he even puts up a 500/5 season. So until he does, which is all that several of us are saying, it hasn't happened and the offense isn't any different otherwise. So the offense will essentially only take a leap if Hardy explodes, the chances of which are remote.

Well, it's not as if you take an offense as horrific as our was last season under Edwards, add a handful of TDs to it and it becomes average. I think as some have said if Hardy himself scores 5 TDs it will be considered good, which is reasonable in a great season. So the entire difference otherwise then seems to stem from Evans' increase in production as a result and ignoring anything regarding Edwards or the OL in even being able to do that. So what will Evans' production jump to from 5? 8, 10, 12? Only 8 WRs in the league last year had more than 10 TD receptions and all were on far more prolific passing teams than the Bills were or will be this year. So let's say it jumps to 10 which is extremely reasonable. So the team logs 10 more TDs which still places it at only around 20th or so, still far from anything average. And again, that's if Edwards has no issues and improves and Hardy does step up. Meanwhile, we lost Gaines who was our best TE and 3rd leading TD receiver last year. As to steps in the right direction, this is the third season of a new head coach. We need more than steps in the right direction, we need winning and a winning season and a demonstrated ability to play solid fundamental football which we were very far from last year. Anything less is unacceptible. This isn't try it for a decade to see if you can get it right once. If Jauron can't go at least 9-7 while proving that this team can beat more than teams like last years Jets, Fins, Ravens, and Bengals then it's time to move on.

Well IDK what he did as a rookie to earn the job besides get drafted and have positive things said about him. Either way, the team determined last year that he would better help the team win, not be best as the team moved forward into the future. By their calculations, the offense performed worse under him. It's difficult to tally Ws and Ls for each QB when JP played the Pats twice and the Jags while Edwards got the Jets twice, Miami, the Ravens, Bengals, etc., all the worst teams on the schedule besides Miami once. Also, JP played mostly when Lynch was in his first games as a rookie while Edwards got him with more seasoning. Still, the O performed better under JP. It scored more on average, got more 1st downs, more 3rd down conversions, and although not by a big enough margin to be good, still better than Edwards, whose performances everyone is overlooking in favor of statements such that he's poised. My response is so what, who cares if he leaves the locker room with platform shoes and a bell dress on, if it doesn't help the team, who cares. I suppose deep down I'm just wondering at what point fans and media gave up looking at what an offense under a QB actually produces rather than how he looks in a uniform or some other meaningless notion. I'm also not sure that most Bills fans truly realize how pathetic our offense was with Edwards under center. On top of that, we were +9 in Turnover Ratio on the season. Under Edwards we were +14 while under JP we were therefore -5. The QB doesn't get credit for that since they don't generate takeaways. So in spite of that, Edwards' offense was still less productive. In his 9 starts that's an average of over 1.5 TO+ per game. To achieve that the team will need a +25 TO ratio this year which would have led the league last year. He also got the help of 4 non-offensive TDs in his 9 starts whereas Losman only got the help of one. I guess that my point is that under Edwards, who only proved that neither he nor the team could score with him under center, and that beat only the worst teams, did so with record TO ratio production and record non-offensive TD production. So can we assume that he will get that again this year? If not, how will that help/hurt the play of the offense under him but more importantly, how will it help/hurt us in winning games?

Doesn't sound like there are a whole lot of good answers. Could it just be that someone saying that Edwards is poised is meaningless?

OK, so a completion for 3 on a 3rd-and-6 avoids the sack, but so what, then you punt. Granted, better than a sack, but still not what the O is supposed to do, or is it. As far as placing the ball in the right spot for the receiver to make the play or reading his recceivers, did you miss all the times that he hit a man for short because he missed an entirely open receiver elsewhere that could have resulted in a lot more yards? Regardless, OK, he played with poise uncommon for rookies. Shouldn't the offense then not have been the worst in the league? I mean was Culpepper, Russell, McCown better on a better O in Oakland? Why did they put up more in terms of offensive production with Fargas, Curry, Porter and their pathetic OL? How Leo Clemen or Kellen Clemens in NY and Miami?

Was the game plan different for JP than it was for Edwards last year? JP also played the few tough Ds that we faced too except for the Cowboys. Still, you mention a lot of what you hope for and wish, but what was the solid part of Edwards play? Saying that he has poise only goes so far, as far as the words go and no more. You didn't answer the question or help me understand why we should expect something from Edwards other than by saying that since he didn't do things last year we can expect him to do them this year. And what about all those open receivers we saw him miss? Was it the game plan that disallowed those, or is that possibly a flag going forward? And as far as a defense getting closer to supporting a gunslinger, what do you mean by that specifically? IMO if a defense is that good then the O shouldn't need a gunslinger. It should be able to run ball control.

Again, that's all fine and good, but thus far the team on average has scored more points with Losman under center both last year and in '06. So are we in the mode of as long as our QB doesn't look scared or concerned, we're happy even if the O sucks?