RuntheDamnBall

Remember that you're talking to a brick wall here, FWIW.

Well, isn't it more important what Mike McCarthy believed? I am not one of the "technically still a rookie" crowd, BB and you know this. I think EJ can be judged... to be a project! And even if I disagree with some of the assessments, I think this is a very, very fair way to look at it.

You're making a soft, tentative case with no evidence. So the Chandler big plays, this week and last, were not aggressive and tough? C'mon. Is that a lockgroove record?

I'm going to keep hammering on this, but McCarthy's work with him really suggests he was a project. Maybe he would have been a MOR QB without the extra work, but he was definitely unremarkable in spot duty his first two seasons. WHOAH, THERE'S A DEAD HORSE EMOTICON!!!!1! THIS THREAD IS FINALLY WORTH IT.

Only if it was a move made with EJ's development in mind, and with the idea that the team wants to work with him. I don't want to be here again in 2 years with no QB of the future. But really, as Capt. Caveman says, only if EJ is holding the team back... a lot. If we're winning, I give him that leash. This is basically the reverse of the Alex Smith / Kaepernick situation, so I tread lightly if the "upside" guy is not losing us games.

Not in the way that I've presented it, but thanks, thread police. I presume the mods would have dropped by if they agreed. Report the post if it's offending the heck out of you.

Well, I presume they would move up if they targeted a guy they believe in and think won't fall, and the later the pick, the more likely we're expecting a development curve vs. immediate success.

You're not really following my premise. Aaron Rodgers showed little early on as well. And "nothing" means you're unimpressed with anything including that scramble and hookup with Chandler. Also, are you Captain Hindsight?

I guess the retort to that is, because you can perhaps get playoffs with a veteran who isn't great but is capable.

That's the risk. A risk, I hope we'd agree, that GB took as well. It was just masked by Favre's ability to keep the team competitive -- and then some.

Who is that? Dareus, CJ and Cordy? Agreed, this could be an issue especially if they don't have depth at DL or OT. I think they know better, now, but no guarantees, of course. Bradham is in that mix as well. That said, I think you're going to see some re-signings, and a great QB will make such a difference that it will mitigate some issues. I sure hope EJ becomes that guy but I would agree that the evidence doesn't yet point in his favor.

Also, the book will be out on him. Cousins looks like a Schaub to me. Will get a decent team to the playoffs, sometimes. Won't be elite.

I would trade Skelton for Tannehill.

Funny, but not really.

Yes, another EJ thread. Sort of. But if you hate the guy, insert your favorite QB prospect for 2015 here and go forward. Short of somehow landing a top 2 draft position, it seems like we are rolling the dice and accepting a development curve for somebody. So, that said, would you take three years of development for the Bills' starting QB if it resulted in the kind of sustained excellence that Aaron Rodgers has achieved? We are in a much tougher spot than the Packers were in that there is no one for EJ to develop behind, safely. And EJ is not coming in to a "winning program" like GB had, even though there was coaching turnover. Even if EJ were to be benched in a "for his own good" sort of way, I think that Orton's play would pretty much be of the treading water variety. I would feel differently if he had had a full offseason with this staff. If EJ stays on the field, that means bad habits can be reinforced on-field. It also could mean he could develop more quickly than Rogers did (though I doubt this). These are unknowns. Yet, what if it did just "take time" - either way? Would you be content with this, knowing that the best is yet to come? 14 years is too long and 16 years sounds agonizing, but flip decisions by the Bills are in part the reason WHY it's taken 14 years, and one reason it has been difficult to attract top-shelf personnel and coaches. What if two more years of "suffering" (hi Darcy) meant 7-8 years of awesome? Could you put up with this? It seems that many fans here can't. And I don't blame them to some extent, because it could very easily not be awesome at the end of those 3 years. If you believe it's worth waiting, you also probably believe that Whaley will be able to keep building this team the right way, and that it will be able to contend with the aging process for Kyle, Mario and other key vets. I am on the fence about this. I do think there may be more of a window than we think, but I also don't see a lot of premium DL talent that is on the younger side on this team, aside from Dareus. And if Orton could in fact get the team to the playoffs, but the team still develops EJ, I could live with that, as well.

And yet, he still fell far. Why? He still needed McCarthy to put him through a rigorous program to fix things. Why? The results and the history suggest that he wasn't as fully formed as the scouting reports said. It would not be the first time that scouting reports didn't paint the complete picture. Still, 3 years mostly spent on the sidelines. If he were ready sooner, he would have had the job as a first rounder under contract while Favre continued to get more expensive. But let's take this to another thread that I'm working on.

This is true. And it's not just pay. At least where the Bills were concerned, it was going to be "overpay." My take on this is that the Pegulas are going to expend a lot of effort making everything first class, so that the little touches and things you might not notice at first are going to be there. That's going to add up and the next time there is a coaching hire, it will make a difference. There won't have to be (and shouldn't have to be) such a premium for the Bills.

Pretty interesting. Hard not to like the dude, and the way he plays.

And what really happened was that Mike McCarthy helped him rebuild his throwing motion. Too bad that doesn't mesh with the unlinked "pre-draft reports." Kyle Boller ran this same sophisticated college offense, and Akili Smith and Joey Harrington were Tedford-groomed QBs before him. Don't act like there weren't concerns.

Kaepernick, Alex Smith, Foles (?) -- sat for a year, sucked when he was out there. We could go on.

I'll take "there isn't one"? The magic number is the number of games it takes for them to find someone better. That person does not exist right now, despite protestations to the contrary and Orton's presence on the roster for all of 4 weeks, without a training camp.

Yes, this is well-documented. His throwing motion was a mess and Mike McCarthy rebuilt him. He was a mess with his first coaching staff. He slid, yes. But sliding or moving up based on prognostications doesn't really have much to do with how you do. Brady Quinn slid, and he was for a time a highly-regarded prospect. That didn't work out so well. We need to stop basing analysis on draft position, especially when the Bills moved back to acquire EJ and Kiko using their one pick. The move was already an unqualified success. If EJ can grow, it'll be a home run. This is not so hard to understand.

Except Duder wasn't talking about history and odds. He said "NEVER," and I pointed pretty easily to two examples in the past 10 years. Outliers? Sure. Precedents? Yes.

Aaron Rodgers says hi. Drew Brees missed the bus, barely, but is also present.

I have no doubt in my mind that Mike Tomczak really tried to win, but he sucked. I am not sure where any of this "EJ doesn't try" stuff comes from... at all. If anything, I think the kid is trying too hard and once again has too many voices in his head. I'm hopeful, but over-coaching is no better than not enough of it. Good coaching is what he needs, and good coaching helps you develop trust in your own abilities.